heldred

Fighter (any) / Mage (blood) - sword and board, armored grace, buff up, use citzals w/clear out and mob stance for lots of mobs, switch to ranged caster when you want, and go wall of draining on long boss fights in buffed-melee mode Pali (bleak or gold) / Cipher (sb) - off tank dps Monk (hel) / Rogue (tricks) - off tank dps (fists/fists, fist/tuotilo or best defense, or weapon/weapon) Chanter (troub) / Druid (vanilla or watershaper with mod) - focus around lightning/storms for both, use Deltro and Lord Daryn's Voulge - also can heal Barb / Priest - buffer/healing - could go ranged (for your arquebus request), but who needs it with this crew

Fun options... Cipher(SB)/Pal or Cipher(SB)/Fighter are both strong and pump-out damage in melee. Strong from level 6+ Wiz/Rogue, Wiz/Fighter, and Wiz/Pal are rough and buff(ing) warriors. Strong from level 8+. Chanter(Troub)/Pali or Chanter(Troub)/Fighter are fun, dependable, and offer a lot of build options. Strong from level 6+ Monk/Rogue(Trickster) is interesting, since the Trickster buffs give you added survivability and it hits like a truck. Strong from level 10+ (late bloomer)

I reviewed the list and the current Top 10 list includes 7 or 8 of my favorite builds. Oddly enough when I first look at this list, I kept thinking the head-to-head comparisons were really a question of, "Who would win in PvP?" If the game had PvP, I wold favor speed of movement/casting/attacks (wiz, monk), disabling powers (wiz, priest), quick escape moves (rogue), and spiking damage (wiz, cipher, monk, rogue). Meanwhile, survivability (straight up toughness) and utility receive less priority. Then I look at the list again and I contemplate boss killing... Suddenly survivability (fighter, paladin, wiz) and renewing resources (chanter, cipher, fighter/tactician, wiz/blood) begin to shine. Yeah, the pattern for success includes combos with: Wiz, Cipher, Chanter, Monk, Fighter, Rogue, and Paladin All builds can be successful and fun (especially in a party), but that top 10 ten list is pretty spot on for me (hypothetical-PvP and Boss Killing). Odd... probably not the way I should look at it, but that's where my logic takes me.

it sounds like the OP is saying that even primary attacks also get the -35% damage penalty, which is clearly a bug. it should only apply to dual-wielded full attacks. Should it?

To be fair, this post could be entitled: Monk is finally balanced or Two weapon is no longer the clear choice

Wouldn't the easy to kill skeletons from beckoner add zeal to each 25% of the time? I classify that as bit "cheddar..." since I personally don't believe a summoner would intentionally destroy their own minion(s)... unless some sort of out-of-game mechanic could be exploited I like Troub since you can shift between slow-stacking defensive chants and rapid-chants for more offensive spell power. I totally agree. I was just putting it out there. Imo chanters are kind of op cheddar anyhow. Of course I see no reason not to abuse that if they leave it that way. Logic has it that if someone posts an op chanter build they better nerf another class to even things up. (not my logic) Fair point... I never understood some of the balancing decisions in this game.

Wouldn't the easy to kill skeletons from beckoner add zeal to each 25% of the time? I classify that as bit "cheddar..." since I personally don't believe a summoner would intentionally destroy their own minion(s)... unless some sort of out-of-game mechanic could be exploited I like Troub since you can shift between slow-stacking defensive chants and rapid-chants for more offensive spell power.

I would pick Goldpact, since survivability (stacking armor) helps a lot in POTD (even more in lower settings). My squad would be: Goldpact/Wiz (bloodmage) Goldpact/Chanter (troub) Goldpact/Rogue (trickster or streetfighter) Goldpact/Cipher (soulblade) Goldpact/Druid (all decent...)

Fighter/Wiz RogueWiz Pali/Wiz Monk/Wiz ...all gain great defensive and offensive buffs from Wiz, added staying power from martial class, and competent melee abilities Fighter/Druid Monk/Druid Rogue/Druid Defensive abilities of Figher or Con boost from Monk are great for ahiftibgbor casting. Pali/Chanter Fighter/Chanter Defensive staying power from Pali/Fightet, while constant resource gen from Chanter. Adding Tactician subclass in Fighter is a resource animal for long megabiss fights. Pali/Cipher Fighter/Cipher Good combo of staying power, resource generation, and nasty spells

Doru in turn-based mode would be like reading War and Peace on single postcards mailed once a day :0

Great build idea for Doru... I like anything Tactician for mega boss battles. I was trying a solo Tactician/Bloodmage as well, but DPS isn’t quite there yet.

a) This is a total vanilla barb, no special build. I don't think there's anything like that (offensively) besides special builds like Deltro's Helmet + scrolls, a SC Monk with Mortars that can sustain that much AoE dps while at the same time controlling the battlefield. It's just one ability and you don't have to adapt your build to it. Sure, it's PL 9 - but the statement is falsified with this single observation. And then do a Ravager, Warlock, Tempest, Witch (Berseker/Ascendant for example) or Shaman and please judge again if they don't contribute a lot to offensive power. d) Group buffs of a Paladin? You mean besides the auras I presume. Because a Paladin is not good at group buffing compared to a Priest. Barbs have nice stacking buffs (Frenzy, Bloodlust, Blood Thirst, Shape Ward: Frenzy...). I completely agree for a play style focused on AOE damage, but that build would “probably” become a liability with Dorudugan. None of the main/regular battles are ever an issue, so killing the screen in 15s Vs. 30s really isn’t a goal for me. My playstyle just wants to face-tank encounters without the need to hide, pull, protect a companion, etc. and then keep the same build for megabosses, using the same brute-force, no-weak-links philosophy. Regarding Ravager, Warlock, Tempest and Witch... If you want damage first and survivabikity second, they are all good at DPS, but not even the best. Going deeper... Ravager is really more about the Monk, but suffers from average defenses Warlock is really the Mage shining, and adding Fighter, Monk, or Rogue to Wiz were all more consistent DPS for me Tempest is a bit squishy for me, but a Rogue can put down the same damage and offer more defenses Witch is fun, but squishier compared to adding Pali or Fighter to Cipher Barbs are decent, but outside of a hand-mortar, single-class build, they add little to the party in multi, compared to other classes in the parts bin, especially when considering balancing survivabikity.

pick a loser. dare you. HA! Good Fun! Besides being 7 white men, no, none of them are losers, just reflective of the society at the time of the program. That's a debate for a different forum... Back to a different class struggle, the POE2 winners and losers. I think we all agree every class can be effective. We also have unique play styles and our perceptions of "important" and "effective" vary. However, it is apparent we are really only debating the bottom of the list, not the top. I don't recall seeing someone claim Wizards aren't effective or Rogues offering little value. I think it is safe to say, the more beneficial classes of POE2 are: Wiz, Rogue, Cipher, and Chanter because they have unique designs, raw power, and flexibility. While Fighter, Monk, and Paladin offer great compliments to any multi-class, including the first three I mentioned. The real debate is around Priest, Druid, Ranger, and Barbarian because they don't offer (as well as other classes): a) the offensive power of Wiz, Monk, Cipher, or Rogue b) the defensive staying power of Fighter, Paladin, Rogue (Trickster), Wizard c) the unique staying power for megaboss fights (or any long battle) like Chanter, Cipher, Fighter (Tactician), or Wiz (Bloodmage) d) the stacking buffs of a Monk or useful group buffs of Paladin or Chanter There is redundancy in the list above, representing the classes that are overall more beneficial in a build (for my play-style). Again, there are no bad classes, just some debatable, mediocre options that have moments of brilliance that are overshadowed by the superstars.

Stacking accuracy is helpful, but if you already have a good base, it isn't critical. None of my characters have a base PER under 16, typically go 17-18 to start. This makes accuracy less of a concern, start to finish. By mid-to-late game, accuracy is no longer an issue, so I go for debilitating status-effects or more damage. In the late game, there are diminishing returns of accuracy... At level 20, you have a huge base accuracy, all your specialty skills, legendary weapons, +PER/ACC items, and usually access to base PER buff (e.g., insightful). It is always helpful to have more accuracy, but I wouldn't select an entire class to gain more accuracy. After a certain level of accuracy, unless going for a crit-build, I don't miss it.

I completely respect your observation. The way I play (tanky characters), the defensive gain from multi-class (when following my Column A formula) is incredibly beneficial. It enabled me to have my entire party face-tank Dorudugan and not experience a single casualty. It is tough to keep 5-people up (in melee range) in that battle and deal damage to finish him off in under 15 mins. I agree, some single classes are dynamite and offer exceptional firepower, cc, etc. to a team, but many of them lack tankiness and must "more heavily" rely upon healing, potions, team buffs, etc. to survive the epic battles.

Mid-to-late game, accuracy really isn't an issue (especially with equipment options, buffs, and treating PER as a god stat. No class is "bad," you just find more potential in other classes in comparison. You just said above that you think any Ranger multiclass can be always be skipped in favor of Rogue multiclasses. If a multiclass benefits from increased accuracy, like in say reliably applying critical hits for longer duration of afflictions or bonus Pen, then how does a Rogue multiclass achieve that result? Even with an accuracy bonus from a Perception inspiration and Devotions for the Faithful, the +10 from at least using Marked Prey will help create more Crits than not. I'm saying: 1) I don't think any of my characters ever have a base PER under 16, typically go 17-18 to start. This makes accuracy less of a concern, start to finish (PER is the god-stat). 2) Mid-late game, Accuracy is no longer an issue, so I go for debilitating status-effects or more damage.

You are correct, Priest of Wael does provide good defense, but Mage does it 2x better... As for Barbs, they are good, but the other classes are better in multi-class setups, unless pairing with a Column A choice, but it really seems wasteful. I do point out they are good single-class options... but multi is more powerful, especially in team tactics and survivability (megabosses).

Mid-to-late game, accuracy really isn't an issue (especially with equipment options, buffs, and treating PER as a god stat. No class is "bad," you just find more potential in other classes in comparison.

COLUMN A Fighters, Paladins, Rogues (Tricksters), and Wizards (self buffs) are best to add Defensive Endurance to any multi-class. COLUMN B Rogues and Monks are best to add Offensive Punch to any multi-class. COLUMN C Chanters, Priests, Druids, Wizards, and Ciphers offer a blend of CC, Group Buffs, Summons, Ranged Damage, and/or Healing I always play on POTD and/or DeadlyDeadfire Mod (v3.0 and under), so I make all of my classes relatively tanky. This criteria makes defensive capabilities a prerequisite and I "always" take something from COLUMN A , then adding something from COLUMNS B or C. For "Single" classes, there are only a handful that gain something "great" in the outer levels: Wizard, Priest, Monk, Cipher, and Barbarian (opinion). In summary, which classes are the overall best... for me, any class in COLUMN A. A party comprised of choices from COLUMN A are never in trouble (fear for life alone) and still can bring damage, healing, cc, etc. when paired with other multi-class selections (Columns B or C). I believe solo classes are inferior, due to scrolls, potions, and the synergy afforded between certain multi-class combos, most notably the Defensive Classes (see Column A). This is why my analysis brings me squarely back to Column A... My God Tier awards go to: Wizards (provides massive defensive boast and firepower, with the added flexibility of grimoires) Rogues (can be a defensive boon with Tricksters, or an offensive boast with general sneak-attack/flanking powers) Paladins (blend of auras and defensive power) Fighters (raw endurance and some nice melee perks) My Demigod Tier awards go to: Chanter (best offensive staying power for long battles... think megabosses) Monks (for game-breaking self-buffs, but just lacks defensive endurance) Ciphers (for unique multi-class synergy and overall utility) Honorable Mentions: Druids (decent offensive spells and healing, that needs paring with God Tier for endurance) Priest (see Druid description above) Can skip, because everything else is better multi-class Ranger (just take Rogue) Barbarian (just take Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, or Monk) Please note, these are the "Parts-Bin" Awards for multi-class. The really difficult analysis is actually determining the effectiveness of the full multi-class combos (e.g., Wiz/Fighter vs. Wiz/Monk). The point of my analysis is you really can never go wrong if you pair anything with COLUMN A (solo or group play).

If only the game would allow wielding a Pike and Small Shield... Come to think of it, I'm surprised there isn't a mod to wield anything one-handed, in both hands simultaneously. The shield (Bronlar's Phalanx) and spear (Stalker's Patience) was meant to be the best "Greek Hoplite" option, while the sword (Gladiator Sword) and shield (Shining Bulwark) was the "Roman Legionnaire" alternative.

Bardserker +1

I was thinking about a play-through using different warrior archetypes from history... Roman/Greek Soldier (Fighter/tactician + Ranger/stalker or sharpshooter... with hunting dog) Spear/stalkers + Shield/bronlars Spear/stalkers and Sword/gladiator Thrown Weapon Mod or Bow Musketeer (Fighter/blackjack + Rogue/streetfighter Rapier (Squids) Rapier and Pistol Arquebus Medieval Knight (Paladin/any + Chanter/Troub or Paladin/any + Priest/any) Weapon + Shield Two Hander Viking (Barbarian or Fighter + Druid or Fighter + Skald) Twin weapon Weapon + Shield when in trouble Warrior Monk (Monk/helwalker + Priest/woedica or Monk/helwalker + Rogue/trickster) Fists Weapon/kapana + Shield/tuotilo when in trouble Any suggestions on other archetype options (warriors only, which really means no mages or ciphers on this run)? Any suggestions on refining current lineup? Thanks!

Scoderos (sp?) and Rusts are a favorite, but Stalkers and Scoderos or Stakers and rusts are also fun (and look cool). Put this combo on a Paladin (your choice, but like Bleak, Gold, and Steel) and Rogue (Trickster or Streetfighter if you want to live more on the edge and do more damage). Equally entertaining on a Monk(Helwalker)/Rogue(Trickster). Lastly, twin Flails are fun... had Ball & Chain + Endres for a optional Blunt beat-downs. Also, it makes a nice theme of an escaped slave (ball and chain) and took the flail (Endres) of his/her taskmaster... Yes, I prefer melee.

Tanky priests that are relatively fun (not standing ovation fun for me, but nothing to regret): Paladin+Priest (Skaen or Wael are decent) Fighter+Priest (Eothas is interesting) Monk+Priest (Woedica thematically...) Rogue (Trickster) + Priest (Rymr) My latest idea is a custom Wiz+Priest, focusing on cherry-picking defensive Wiz spells and buffs at some level (Mirror, IronSkin, Haste, Llengs, etc.), while speccing for fire (Magrans + Zendathas Grimoire, etc.). Wield Magrans Favor Axe and/or Sun & Moon Flail (suggest a shield for POTD) + Ring of Fire Accuracy Thingy (name eludes me). With Turn-Based arriving, I might just add the Wiz+Priest fire nuker to the party...

I understand Priests were highly effective in POE, but the dev team really made the class mediocre in POE2. To be clear, you can have effective Priest builds, but when I think of an area a Priest could shine in POE2, another class does it better... 1) Healing... I can make an argument that Passive healing (Paladin and Chanter) is better in the mid-to-late game (especially when augmented with scrolls for quick fixes). A vanilla Druid can heal really well and a Lifegiver-Druid wins the healing title. To be honest, if you are healing more than once in the late game (standard fights), you are probably not playing with an optimal build or team. 2) Damage... I'm just going to say scrolls break the game and allow any class to become a DPS-casting-machine (mid-to-late game economics make it possible). Sure, I can build a DPS-focused Priest, but a Wiz or Druid does it better. Even a Cipher does it better. 3) Efficiency of Build... Wiz has grimoires (free spells), while a Priest has to buy everything outside of the 1-domain specific spell. When playing, it makes the class inefficient when buying skills or really narrow in focus. 4) Durability... Unless you go Wael, it really doesn't have a lot of buffing options (neither does a Druid, but they have beast forms - maybe that was the dev rationale). 5) Cast times... Wow, I'm sure there is a reason for the long cast times on spells, but I keep thinking it is a artifact of POE1-hate 6) Signature spells... I've played a bunch of spells and many have cool effects, but nothing grabbed me as critical when playing multi-class (since other classes have better spells at those tiers). The T8/T9 spells are good, but not all of them are created equal... there are winners and losers in the upper-tiers as well. I could keep going and I'm glad there are mods to address, but I wish the dev team just realized they over-nerfed a great class from POE1 and made some adjustments last year. At this point, I find myself constantly avoiding the class in any playthrough or build test. No big deal, there are plenty of great options, but I just wish the Priest class wasn't so blah...