heldred

Played everything multi, but single... lots of passes. Classes I will never play single class until redesigned... Fighter... nothing to look forward to late level that compares to other powerful classes. No special skills or style... it’s like dev team equates fighters to boring skills. The class is competent, but overshadowed by multi and single classes. Rogue... solo this class offers nothing for me, but one of my favorite multi options. It is probably because you don’t need to pick manybskills past PL 3. Druid... it just lacks the spell casting punch of a solo Wiz or Fire Priest. As for beast mode, it is way more fun and powerful to multi. Paladin... why would you want to play as a single class when everything you need is PL 7 and under. If dev team wanted to see more solo paladins, just make PL 9 version of SI actually do zero self-damage and better Pen. Barbarian... I’ve tried, really tried since I love melee, but for some reason the um, the Ranger does it better (AOE) damage for me. Weird... also, squishy, and the whole blind your health seems clunky and unnecessary for the benefit. Seems like Monk has better buffs with NO penalties. Yes, this list makes me realize I really play single class Wiz, Priest, Cipher, Chanter... hmmm, all casters. Except for Druids that are just not as good.

Less is more... 10+ companions leads to two dimensional character development displayed through a simple logic tree and some voice-over files. A better product would emerge if they just worked on 4-5 companions, with the understanding the players might only relate to 1 or 2. If you are going with a companion system, you need to develop characters with depth, goals, aspirations, fears, foibles, etc. As for the storyline... less time should be spent with micro-games (ship combat) and more resources on a compelling story that creates true motivation or evokes some level of emotion. POE2 had a thin story (with zero sense of urgency or import) and mediocre characters... the story might be harder to nail, but limiting the number of companions would probably have produced a better overall product. By the way, random ideas as I pour a cup of coffee: 1) compulsive liar companion: you never really know the truth and every time a big event happens they relate to it, but is most likely all a lie... for example, you just defeated a shadow drake and the companion says, “as a child, my village in the living lands was terrorized by a massive drake, summoned by a vile chanter. My father was part of the town militia and they were summoned to confront the vile chanter. After a fierce battle they defeated the drake and thought they had won, until the chanter summoned another drake and destroyed the remaining militia. We grew up as a slaves to this chanter and eventually I ran away on my 14th name day. No need to tell you the challenges of being a female runaway, but it made me who I am. i am starting to trust you, but if you bring a chanter into this party you will need to make a decision... me or them.” This could be a huge lie, some truth, etc., but depending on your interactions and choices either the truth begins to emerge or more lies keep the character shrouded in mystery. 2) protege companion: A companion that wants to be you... you saved them or did something fairly remarkable to make a lasting impression. Either you allow them to continue to fawn over you and eventually take them on as an apprentice (multi class with one class being the same as main character) or you turn them away, causing possible friction and lots of snide remarks. 3) someone better than you companion: older veteran, possibly the original watcher, that happens to have slid down a dark path (drinking, harlots, etc.) because of a massive tragedy (lost his original companions, accidentally caused a village to be enslaved by a vile chanter, etc.) and you convince him or her they have chance at redemption or at least not dying of boredom. Now this is really unique since you have a really powerful character that has no interest in being a leader, but this companion will also have no hesitation pointing out (with sarcasm) a bad decision or a self-serving action... Back to coffee...

1) Piece of Sh.. 2) Sloppy Seconds 3) Third Times a Charm

I agree, Arcana 15 makes anyone deadly late game. I think it is the most powerful skill in the game and really should be capped to spells T5 and under. Personally, I hate consummables (scrolls) that replicate class defining or late game abilities... it cheapens everything. For kicks I had my Paladin throw meteor storm 2x to wipe Concelhaut and his buddies for kicks. The rest of my party hung out and watched from a safe distance. Yeah, not well thought out...

Scrolls make any class a competent healer. Potions also work for healing. Items can apply some healing, but scrolls are my first choice, unless the build can’t allow for Arcana to go 7+

General thoughts... I think any evaluation of T8/T9s the number of options should be evaluated. The goal should be to not have a 2-3x disparity.l in options. Regarding he power evaluation, I agree many builds are “viable,” but the issue is contrast. When you compare a single class Wiz to a Barb, the Wiz has superior choices, flexibility, and overall power. If we had PvP, I think these factors would be even more obvious. With PvE, (solo or party) the Wiz is superior for the same reason: T8/T9 choices flexibility of builds from nuker to melee adaptability to counter monsters by applying different damage types durability from buffs power defined as cc, aoe nuking, and single target damage

Single class barbs are fine for groups and OK with bosses. The real issue with the class is a lack of T8/T9 choices... everyone turns into a HoF clone single class.

I think choice of skills is always more fun, otherwise all builds become too similar (for solo). I think it is important to point out the discrepancies (limited options and effectiveness), since it would be great to have more efficient and enjoyable solo options. Regarding difficulty, you can always mod the game to make it harder or simply challenge yourself (no scrolls, consumables, etc.). However, I think there will always be people that find a way to trivialize any game/challenge.

If you don’t care about homogeneity, the recommendation is: 1) 5 pure Wizards Or 2) 5 pure Chanters (slower, but lower micro with stacked chants) Middle ground caster heavy: 1) 2x Wiz, 1x Chanter, 1x Priest, and any Multi Favorite melee heavy set of mine (AI helps with micro) 1) Druid-Shifter/Rogue-Street, Wiz/Fighter, Wiz/Rogue-Street, Chanter-Troub/Pali, Wiz/Monk Or 2) Druid-Shifter/Rogue-Street, Wiz/Pali, Wiz/Rogue-Street, Chanter/Druid, Pali/Rogue-Trix

And you rate Ranger T8 abilities a solid 4 You misunderstood my methodology... The First Number is the number of options for the class, divided by Priest options (class with the most), normalized for 1-10 rating. (T8+T9) / Priest Options) The Second Number is what I think about the combined Power of T8s and T9s for the class. In this case, I gave Ranger an 8, which is fair in my experience. In summary, my recommendation for Ranger would be add more abilities (and make them interesting and useful), no reason to have so few.

Yeah, Whirling appears to have better results than HoF. I think Rangers, like Rogue, Barb, and Paladin need more T8/T9 abilities. In general, for melee classes, I would like to see more passives in the T8/T9 bucket and some sort of transform. For example, for fighter, you could have: Bulwark = T8 passive that deflects 25% of ranged attacks and 10% spells Aegis = T9 transform, 30 sec base, gives +10 Str, +10 Dex, +10 Per, +30% base melee damage, -50% recovery on Armor Let s be frank, Wizards have Citzal’s Martial Power a T6 spell! That thing gives +20 Acc, +20 Defl, +8 Str, Dex, Con... seriously? I think a T9 for a Fighter should at a minimum be comparable to the Wiz T6...

Agreed, the descriptions are horrific.

After a three runs through the game on POTD, with full parties, I noticed some discrepancies on single-class T8 and T9 abilities. To create some way of measuring the deficiency, I put together the following methodology: Part 1: Options Rating: This is an objective evaluation derived by taking the class (Priest) with highest number of T8 and T9 abilities and setting it to = 100% (normalized to 10 on 1 to 10 scale). Every other class uses the highest total as the denominator to yield a rating. Part 2: This is subjective: 1-10 Power rankings Part 3: Sum and Rank Rating of T8/T9s --------------------------- Priest 10 8 = 18 Wiz 8 10 = 18 Chanter 6 8 = 14 Cipher 5 8 = 13 Monk 4 9 = 13 Druid 6 6 = 12 Ranger 4 8 = 12 Fighter 6 5 = 11 Barb 5 6 = 11 Paladin 5 6 = 11 Rogue 4 6 = 10 Now there are some intangibles that should be taken into consideration. For example, the fact that anyone can cast Avenging Storm cheapens the hell out of a good, class defining skill for Druids. This isn't as impactful for high-end Priest and Wizard scrolls, since they have many other unique, class defining spells that they can only cast. In addition, some classes have horrible efficiency (cost) to use T8/T9 abilities (for what they do). Wizard also has the added bonus of not needing to pick any spells on level-up (waste zero points) because of grimoires. When I look at the resource gap, my initial list really didn't change, with the exception of Wizard moving even higher. However, I welcome anyone to expand the evaluation to include a measure of resource/efficiency. After reflection of the initieal data, I believe the following classes need help on T8 and T9 skills (single class): Rogue, Fighter, Barb, Druid on the critical list, with Ranger and Paladin on the consideration list. The bottom half of this list definitely needs some attention. My preference is for Obsidian to make ALL CLASSES as fun to play as Wizards (single class). At the very least, provide way more T8/T9 powers for other classes to match the options of solo wizards and priests. I look forward to seeing other members' thoughts.

The ties are simply in alphabetical order and I agree they could go either way. I love Rogue for multi, but their T8/T9 skills (single class defining skills) are limited and pretty lackluster.

To keep on topic, it might be interesting to see which classes people think have the best T8/T9 choices. As a starter template, it could be measured by Number of Options and Power. Quick methodology: Part 1: Somewhat objective: Class with highest sum of available T8 and T9 = 100% (normalized to 10 on 1 to 10 scale). Every other class uses the highest total as the denominator to yield a rating. Part 2: This is subjective: 1-10 Power rankings. These are my thoughts after three runs, with different patches, with 5-man POTD parties, to try as many combinations as possible. Part 3: Sum and rank Rating of T8/T9s --------------------------- Priest 10 8 = 18 Wiz 8 10 = 18 Chanter 6 8 = 14 Cipher 5 8 = 13 Monk 4 9 = 13 Druid 6 6 = 12 Ranger 4 8 = 12 Fighter 6 5 = 11 Barb 5 6 = 11 Paladin 5 6 = 11 Rogue 4 6 = 10 Now there are some intangibles that should be taken into consideration. For example, the fact that anyone can cast Avenging Storm cheapens the hell out of a good, class defining skill for Druids. This isn't as impactful for high-end Priest and Wizard scrolls, since they have many other unique, class defining spells that they can only cast. After reflection of some data, my thesis has expanded and now I believe the following classes need help on T8 and T9 skills: Rogue, Fighter, Barb, Druid on the critical list, with Paladin on the consideration list. I look forward to seeing other members' thoughts.

I believe Fighter is fine multi, since everything you want/need is below T7. A solo class Fighter, compared to a Wizard, has nothing to offer T8 or T9. Wilting Wind, Piercing Sigil, Great Soul, Wall Colors, Freezing Rake, Meteor Shower, Cloak of Death, Mins Missiles, Llengs Reflection, Arcane Cleanse, Corrosive Skin... all are solid. For T8 Fighters we have...Clean Sweep? (Not much of an upgrade) Inspired Defense? (is good, but should come earlier compared to other class buffs, which would only benefit multi more). Then for T9 the choices are baffling to me: Inspired Strike (have you seen the Monk’s version?), Take the Hit (situational and not impactful in most encounters), Sundering Blow (this should be a streamlined passive at this level, but still not close to the Monk’s attack), and Unrelenting (skills that you need to die to use are normally not that efficient, especially for a class that is tough to take down... this would be better on a Barb or something a bit more glass cannon). Anyway, my point is, the gold standard of fun and destruction, Wizard, has amazing and fun powers for solo T8/T9, while fighters have substandard and limited options.

Ok, to be really clear. For multi class, when choosing a melee option, all are decent, but I find better efficiency/damage with Monk, Pali, Rogue (fighter being a close fourth). For single class, I think Pali and Rogue could also use a bump, but fighter feels the least effective or interesting of the bunch. Ultimately my thesis is, “For solo class, Fighters need some improvement, especially compared to solo Wizard, the gold standard.”

Let me be clear, adding fighter to multi is fine, but not the best choice for my play style (outclassed by rogue, pali, and monk in my opinion) . However, for solo it is not even close to other classes like Wizard. I believe the main issue of the “solo” deficiency is mediocre skills for Tier 8 and 9. In addition they are missing some mid-to-late game flavor. This is why my suggestions focused on Tier 8 and 9 skills that could even approach a level 8 of 9 Wizard Spell. For the record, I’m not bothered by name calling, curse words, etc. Where I’m from, using “idiot” is a Tier-1 slur, laughable in fact. Even then, they are only words, simple ones at that.

There are powerful classes... Good classes that could use a tweak... And crappy classes... like fighters. I’ve played a lot of multi and pure classes, but the more hours I log, the clearer it becomes that fighters are horribly lackluster. They have nothing special, no wow factor, and certainly wouldn’t make my top five list for most powerful classes. So what is the fighter supposed to be? I know, people immediately say fighters are supposed to be boring, but why? Shouldn’t all classes be fun and interesting to play. With that said, to start a conversation, my suggestions are: 1) Passive Parry (Tier 5 power- some percent that scales with level) - fighters should be top dogs in defensive melee - still boring, but would help differentiate and help with power ranking 2) Heart of a Warrior (Tier 7 power- +HP Buff, like a spell, but give the fighter a quick cast 30-40 HP increase) - 1 resource 3) Slay (Tier 8 power- +100 point melee attack- if a caster can drop 100+ damage in an AOE, fighters should be masters of Single Target Damage) - 1 resource 4) Soul of a Champion (Tier 8 power- +10 Str, +10 Per +5 Con, high level, long duration buff) - 1 resource 5) Legend of the Slayer (Tier 9 power- wielded weapon adds +10 Raw per 5 secs for 30 seconds) - 1 resource These are basic ideas to start the conversation, but fighters really need something that compares to the “wow” powers of other classes.

Gaming company sins: Limited number of items or ability to customize appearance... yup Heavy-handed nerfs... yup Numerous useless skills, due to high resource cost or weak output... yup Weak story... yup Most people that continue to play are either hopeful DLC might address some issues above or simply enjoy isometric RPGs (not too many out there).

Melee should be stronger, not weaker (which goes for mobs as well). The two weapon imbalance issue was an opportunity to make other melee styles better, but instead the devs just widened the performance issue between spells and melee.

Ok... Some mediocre weapons... check An OP spell... um, do you honestly believe Wizards need more? Another unique spell... see commentary above Nerf to two weapon style... talk about lame moves. Spell casters were already gods, why take away melee damage? A buff to one-handed and two-handed weapon styles would be logical, but nerfing two weapon style was lazy, borderline incompetent. Please rethink this move... this topic is worthy of its own string.

Can you make a Paladin work? Sure, mostly for RP reasons. There are many more potent melee combos that make a pure Paladin look like a limp noodle in combat. Making something work and making something insanely powerful are different results. I don’t think anyone would intentionally pick pure Paladin for PvP (if it existed) or nominate it for most efficient build for solo.

Short answer... no. Longer answer... no, not even close. Full answer... After PL 7, really PL 5, the class starts to offer very little of value. There is nothing remotely close compared to pure Wiz, Monk, and well most classes are junk past PL 7. I think it is a flaw with the overall game... well maybe my expectations are wrong, but I think higher level skills should always be inherently better, creating a compelling, not overwhelming reason to use the new skill. Presently most high level skills/spells are garbage (due to cost or scaling of lower level powers), except for the almighty Wiz. Then again, with 15 scroll lore, anyone can enjoy a sliver of Wiz power.

More items of all types (including non-magic, master-crafted weapons that trade zero enchants/status effects for simply providing a higher PEN and DMG) More high level content (fighting avatars, demigods, legendary adventurers, etc.) More interesting battles (100-200 low level creatures swarming you in waves, continuously fighting up a long mountain ascent, party-on-party battles, etc.) More unique monsters (and models... not an orange slime or a purple troll) Enable dying of armor and weapons (nothing worse than passing an item because your adventurers appears color blind... this is a staple feature of most RPGs) Enable placement of elemental effects on weapons (bring back fire, ice, lightning, etc.) Enable purchasing of rare components at an appropriately high price (why make only a handful of weapons and armor viable?) FIX crappy Tier 8 and 9 powers for certain classes (fighters, paladins, etc.) FIX useless mid-tier powers (reduce costs and/or make them actually worth considering) FIX mechanics to make two-handed and one-handed weapons viable alternatives to two-weapon style (full attack is broken)