Veolfen

I'll just go with a +1 flat penetration for 2handers (or add it to the 2 handers mastery) and a +25% damage bonus on full attacks. Also compare the "unique" 2 handers to unique 1 handers and make sure the bonuses & special effects are at least 50% more powerful compared to 1 handers. And if people want a nerf to DW, i don't think it's the good way to go, but if needed, maybe just go for a minus 5 accuracy for DW.

I don't really have a problem to distinguish both of them, i'm just too lazy to remember to say poleaxe and just go with halberd everywhere

The thing is, single class fighter doesn't have enough point either to handle the cost of the 4 discipline cost of those high level skills. 3 power strike/inspired stike and you're out of discipline, and it's not like you OS people with it, you do at best 50% more damages than a normal attack. So when you have to deal with a lot of ennemies, it's not viable. Same problem for the other HL fighter skills. Yeah at least sundering blow will do the job for the increase in armor the ennemies got. Also i don't complain about the stance, i was more into the duellist stance to stack the max of single target potential with the accuracy and deflection boost. Let's list the fighter skills : Level 1 : Discipline barrage = Good Know Down = Good Level 2 Stance = Decent (very good for tank stance) Into the fray =Bad/Average at best (range too short to make it fill its purpose) Level 3 Dsiciplined strikes = Very good Tactical barrage = Okay (outclassed too much by the previous upgrade) Mule kick = Good Penetrating strike = Good Level 4 Vigorous defense = Good Lower their guard = Bad (range still as short, the debuff last for a too short duration) Out of fire = Bad (same range problem, the one you will want to save will be either too far, and/or you'll be too close to a lot of ennemies, so not a good new position for the ally) Charge = Decent (was very good before nerf) Level 5 Unbending = Bad (Was very good before nerf, now cost too much for poor healing) Guardian stance buff = Good Mob stance = Good (the cleave stance goes up from decent to good with this) Conqueror stance = Decent (tooltip bugged?) Level 6 Refreshing Defenser = Broken (the refresh doesn't work) Clear out = Decent Level 7 Unbending shield = Bad Unbending trunk = Bad/Average (Was OP before nerf, now cost too much for the healing done)) Power strike = Bad (Expecting a double damages hit, it actually does like 50-60% more damages than a normal attack at best, for a huge cost of 4 discipline which is way too much) Level 8 Inspired discipline = Average at best (Not worth it compared to Discipline strike, it gives a boost to all stats, which means 15% more attack speed, 5 more accuracy and 15% more damages for a dps, which is a good buff, but not enough for the price it cost) Clear the path = Okay Clean sweep = Okay Level 9 Inspired strike = Bad/Average (Same problem than powerstrike, but you get a small buff with the cost too now, but it's not very good nor exciting for your high level dps skill) Take the hit = Bad (Its use will be when there's a lot of mobs and you can't engage them all, the problem is you're taking 50% of the allies are taking as RAW damages, making the tank collapse quite fast, something you don't want to happen when there's a lot of mobs left to deal with) Sundering blow = Average (The armor reduction is nice, might be more worth it than before the patch, but the cost is still too high anyway, you still get outdamaged by skills that cost 1 or 2 ressources on other classes) Also special mention at level 7 and 9 => Unbreakable/Unrelenting are good passives for a dps fighter that could die in the melee if he takes a bad focus, but in the end, a good positionning and avoiding to die is always better. You can see he doesn't really have anything exciting, and starting at level 4 to the higher ranks, his abilities are mainly bad or decent at best, and are almost all bad at 7 and 9. A dps fighter at this state, is a tanky dps, but in the end, berserker can be tanky dps who will out dps you in single and multiple targets fights, rogues will out tank with their riposte builds and out dps you, paladins outtank and outdps you with a hand in the pants because of his passives, natural tankiness + flame of devotion and also won't get controlled/mind controled at the first control spell he takes, monk outdps you by clicking on 2 buttons etc...

Agreed. For plate armour against plate armour I'd probably prefer a pollaxe over a halberd (bit shorter and more wieldy, and hammer head is a bit more useful than an axe head), but definitely: plate + polearm is pretty much top dog in most match ups, until you start talking firearms or heavy crossbows (and even then, one on one, I'd probably back armour guy). I would argue that one-handed swords can definitely be faster, eg. a smallsword (completely different era obviously, but still). Then again, regardless of speed, in a duel the guy with the one-handed sword is quickly going to be comtemplating the value of reach. And very much with the leather armour; it's quite heavy as well. Yeah i was thinking of the poleaxe when i said halberd. I tend to call those 2 weapons halberd in most of the cases

Well, even tho the sword isn't the best against* armor, a fighter in armor with a two handed sword is still close to being one of the very best archetype for realistic melee fighting. Even tho the one with a spear will be better, and ultimatly, the fighter in armor + halberd should be the unbeatable beast (admitting equal skill at least between those fighters ofc ) But rpgs tend to make sword good at cutting armor, 2 handed longswords being heavy and slow (while it's actually faster and more nimble to use than a one handed sword, and also feels lighter since you use your two hands), and dual wielder being the best of dps and damages while it sucks in reality. Also RPGs like leather armor too much (and btw they suck for sneaking !)

You don't get it at all, and you probably haven't read the complaints. People aren't complaing about the nerfs of these skills that deserved a nerf, they are complaining about 2 things : -The nerfs are too big, the stance becomes average at the very best and unbending become a high level skill that cost a lot of discipline and that heals less than a 1 zeal paladin heal. -The other warrior skills are bad, and his best skills left are just "good" (Discipline strikes and Penetratig strike). Nothing excting and all his high level skills are bad. Those OP tools were mainly a problem for multiclass with fighter in it, but as a singleclass it was lackluster as a dps, and now it will be worthless. Like Balthazar pointed out => nerfing something because of multiclass can tend to impact the single class even more. So if the single class only had these skills for it, well it becomes easily worthless.

Not that people don't like fighter as a tank. I like making tanks in rpgs. But i also like having the choice for my class too. People don't like having being a tank the only option available, especially when 90% of your active skills suck and being a tank as a fighter means being a meatshield that you send in and forget. People who are happy about fighter state are people who don't play it as the Main Character. They are people who like to have a tank they don't have to think about so they can micromanage their mage and/or rogue. Many classes can do multiple things, paladins, druids, wizards, rogues, etc.... Fighters even has dps oriented subclasses (actually 2 of 3 of the subclasses are dps oriented) But in the end, his only good skills in 1.1 are discipline strikes/penetrating strike, while stances and clear out are decent. They are the simple basic tools. On the other hand, all the high level fighter skills suck (before there was unbending, not anymore). No exciting/cool stuff for him. Also, it's a problem some other classes have too and it shouldn't be the case. High level skills should be exciting and rewarding, not worthless secondary options. Also rogue are supposed to be the best "dps", but as sneaky ones (also have the option of being kind of groupfighters with deflect/riposte builds) & while fighter should be the best "duellist", the face to face guy. Why isn't it possible to have a decent 2 hander fighter ? It's a basic archetype a lot of people love in fantasy, but most western rpgs tend to give all the love to the wizards with their hundreds of spell variety etc.... and for melee class to the ugly ass dual wielders. Also a well protected guy with a 2 hander is realisticly the best type of melee fighter that existed in history, the most effective way of fighting in melee that has existed, before firearmes showed up and put an end to the melee era. So no it's not a problem of not liking tanks, it's a problem of having no other way around with that class while being the least interesting tank to play (selling point of fighter tank ? more engagement slots aaaaand that's it) To finish, a citation a guy made in an other topic about the fighter, so you can see how the lovers of the fighter/warrior archetype feel about it in POE (and sadly a lot of western rpgs) : "Hi, I'm Lester, I'm a fighter." "Okay Lester, what do you do ? Fight, I'm assuming ?" "Oh no no no. This sword? Barely know which end to hold. I just run out into the middle of battle and let people hit me."

It feels great enjoying the warrior/fighter wielding a 2hander archetypes in rpgs, and playing at POE2

Some nerfs were needed guys, and while you say people are complaining about the nerfs, a lot of people are also understanding them even tho it happens to their class. The thing is, sometimes, the nerfs are a bit too hard (unbending for fighter), or sometimes, the nerf touch most of the good tools of a class (fighter again). After the nerf, Except the Discipline Strike, the Stances (mainly the tank one now) and the penetrating strike, point a SINGLE cool and good ability left for the fighter. There's nothing. Also those 3 are good/decent, but are not "cool abilities", they are just the reliable early level tools. The problem is, unbending nerf was needed on fighter. But not that hard. Also he needed buffs on his other high level skills that are quite bad. Also you point out the tank aspect, the only viable aspect the fighter had before the patch and has after the patch. (as a single class, but was way more worth it to multiclass anyway) Before the patch, the offensive cleave stance + devoted made him ideal as a secondary class for multiclass, and unbending was the icing on the cake. But as a single class, it was extremely lackluster as a dps (not saying it was a bit underperforming, it was at least 35-40% less effectives than other melee single classes, and when multiclass join the calculations, it was at least 2 times less effective) The thing is, fighters lovers don't want to just be meatshields and forced to multiclass, but there's obviously little love for his tank aspect (in the end it will be an average meatshield with good agro) and no love for his dps aspect. It's not normal that 90% of your active tools are bad but it's okay because you can just go in, take the agro and become the meatshield. Players who enjoy fighters want something that can dish out decent damages when they go DPS with it. Before the patch they were enough (but still weaker then all the other alternatives) for the difficult/potd because it wasn't hard. But after the patch, with the nerfs AND the increased difficulty of the modes, it won't be average/ a tad weak, it will be bad. It will be outclassed in every way by everything (tanking/dps/hybrid, even as a secondary class for multiclass) BUT the amount of targets it can engage.

Problem, there is large connection between general nerfing and multiclass and singleclass. So if Obsidian nerf Fighter, single class is the most hurted. Why ? Because Obsidian don't use enough Power level and variables to create a true gap between single and multiclass. Gap between single and multi SHOULD BE automatic (25 % of hit to crit with multiclassFighter ? A variable on x %, 50 % for single !...). Here and now, if you nerf a thing, single class is always more penalysed. I am chocked to see how multiclass share 90 % of thing with single... Only missiles are -a little- different, but it is not enough. It's further amplified by the fact that a lot of classes have poor/uninteresting level 8 and 9 spells.

Well what you point out Siegdarth is what make the Fighter good (at best) as a multiclass. His damage skills and high level skills, passives and buffs are bad/pointless/broken.(meaning it doesn't work correctly, not op). And that's not only for fighter, but no game should give bad/useless skills as high level objectives. And he's still outtdamaged by the other classes who easily deals 2 times its damages as a dps. Even tho armored grace and discipline grace are good, they don't transform the fighter into a big crit machine, and his crits aren't impressive at all. And AeonsLegend, not really, but in the fighter case, he's not at a state of "not good enough to solo POTD" but at the state of "bad single class dps (average with dual wield), average singleclass meatshield, decent/good for multiclass because of passives and accuracy boost"

There should be a split between potential as single class and as multiclass for the tierlist i think. Since i'm one of the voices for the fighter on this forum, here's an exemple : After the patch he will be decent/mid tier as a secondary class Unbroken/Devoted But will be a low tier as a single class. Anyway thanks for taking your time doing this listing and updating it with patches.

With that i can delete my fighter/monk and fighter/barbarian xd Have to stick to my troubador or troubador/wizard. Well they will still be decent, you'll have the fighter passive regen, a bit more accuracy (so you will have high crit chance thanks to discipline barrage) and the passive 15% damages improve on your weapon, the barbarian & monk class will do the job for what's left

Just to get back fast on the fighter state, here's a resumé -They nerfed his only powerful tools, because they were obviously too strong. BUT ! But it was only a problem for multiclasses having a warrior as a secondary class, since it was his only strength as a single class (proving how pointless it was to single class it) -His high level tools are bad (cost way too much for the result) and got no buff. After the patch and with the buff of difficult/potd, never ever pick a single class fighter, because it's dead. -Unbending cost a lot for being just a decent tanking skill now, the nerf hammer was too strong on this one -Cleave stance is okay i guess, the upgrade will still give recovery bonus when outnumbered so that can't be bad (but now other classes have better attack speed/damage boost) -Charge isn't a damage dealing skill anymore, letting the fighter with only Penetrating Strike left to deal damages. In 1.1 the Fighters will be low tier : Agro meatshield as a tank (because hey, he has a stance that gives him +3 engagement, aaand that's it), useless dps : All his skills are bad/broken (but discipline strike&penetrating strike which are good at best). His skills needs to be interesting/ to work. To finish, before the patch comes out or for the next patch, he needs buffs. He needs badly a buff on : -Power Strike/Inspired Strike : reduce cost and/or improve damages, it cost 4 discipline and does less damages than 1/2 cost single attack low level skills of some other classes -Same for Sundering Blow (but not as much because the debuff is nice) -Inspired discipline : It cost way too much, even tho it's a good buff, it takes a third of your discipline points -Refreshing defense : Fix the refresh -Unbending : Reduce the cost by 1 or improve it back a little. -And maybe even cleave stance so it touches 2 more ennemies (and not just one)

Fighter seems pretty balanced now actually. It still has some great abilities and even the nerfed abilites (charge, cleaving stance) are quite good for their level and what they cost. Just not gamebreaking. Some fighter abilities could use some buffs e.g. inspired discipline is trash for 4 cost. There's maybe a reason to use clean sweep now, it's imo a really good ability for 2 and the only thing making it bit suboptimal is 2h being inferior to dw and it's a primary attack. Fighter isn't pretty balanced now, it's dead. He was mediocre/quite average at best as a single class dps, and decent/good as a single class tank. But it was really good for multiclassing because of these passives, stance, etc... After nerfing hard his powerful tools (cleave stance, charge, unbending), which were already mainly passives and buffs, the char still has decent passives (like main damages boost and armored grace), a decent attack move (penetrating strike) and a good accuracy buff, and that's it. He has no feeling of power, his high level attack skills and buffs are bad and all the other melee builds deals at least twice his damages, and as a tank tanks less than some other single classes (even a wizard !!) and even less than multiclasses, he's just good at holding agro. He's out dps-ed by everything that dps, and out tank-ed by all the other tanky builds. He needed nerfs on some tools, but not as hard maybe, but he also needed buffs on many other stuffs. cRPGs are always rough to warrior/fighter classes anyway... Also theBalthazar, glad to see i'm not the only fighter lover who's concerned by his weak state, and how he becomes only good at being a meatshield like he was in POE1 (even if i was still going for the dps fighter with his 2 handed halberd or sword in most of my playthroughs ! !)

The real main problem with fighter was that it was picked a lot as a secondary class because of : -Devoted -Cleaving stance -Unbending -Charge -Accuracy buff Mainly buffs, passives, for 1 defensive and 1 offensive skill. This just proves the fighter doesn't have real active skills next to that, and was already only good to pick for multiclassing (but really good at it). After the patch, he will still be a decent second class for multiclassing, but just decent, while being garbage as a single class. The thing is, if you remove those moves, the only decent move left for the fighter is penetrating strike, (which is weaker than flame of devotion, the 2 rogue active attack skills, the monk attack boost skills etc..) The other moves are : -Clear out (the active cleave), only good if you have a special AOE effect on your weapon, and it's mainly good on dual wielders. -Power strike, an extremely bad move for his 4 discipline cost. -Vigorous defense, a good defensive skill, but cost a lot and between unbending and this, unbending is better, especially since the CD refreshing upgrade isn't working. -Sundering blow : Decent but cost a lot and is a really late game skill. Fighters will have for them the accuracy buff and a "good" attack (penetrating strike) with decent stance. Nothing powerful. I really can't see the reason to pick this class (other than just a secondary class to buff your already powerful main class) without a compensation for those nerf.

Yeah unbending deserved a nerf, same for cleave stance, but i don't think all "strong tools" should be nerfed, especially when average/mediocre tools aren't buffed on the other hand (like the fighter skill that cost 4 discipline and deals just a bit higher damages for such a high cost) Clear out is only good if you have that kind of aoe effect on a weapon, but without that it's quite average, even a tad mediocre. Still waiting for this patch since it's gonna fix a lot of other stuffs, but for what i saw, the fighter will be quite the lowest of the low tiers if the only changes he gets are those nerfs.

Hello guys, first post on the forum but i've been on it for a while, reading you all on many topics. As a lover of the fighter/warrior archetype in rpgs, i went for a fighter in the 2 PoE. And i'm a bit scare with all those nerfs, because with charge nerf, cleave stance nerf and unbending nerf, the only last "powerful tool" of the warrior will be the accuracy buff and the penetrating strike. It really feels that the fighter is about to become only good for multiclassing or simply being a meatshield and that makes me sad. After the last balancing patches, the warrior ended up being a decent dps or a good meatshield in POE1, don't want him to share the same fate.

People are always speaking of optimisation etc.... They do parties with 3 Might tanks and 3 constitution casters and ranged dps. 1 fail and their whole party can get kill etc... I'm the kind of guy who don't like to reload and retry so much. My rangers have between 7 or 9 const so they can take a bit more hits and are wearing some armor (loose of DPS compared to the optimised builds, but they can take more hits). In 2 of my games, I have 2 ranged dps. A Ranger (7 cons) and a Fighter (9 cons). The ranger has a higher DPM, but on the other hand, the fighter hit harder (better against armored targets). And when engaged in Melee, the ranger can defend itself decently (just so he can survive while the priest heals the party), when on the other hand, the ranged fighter just switch to 1 handed weapon+shield and tank really well while dealing decent damages too ! (PS : The knockback doesn't work with a range weapon ^^) As someone said before, it's like a bodyguard of the backline. The teleporting spirits where no longer a threat once I had my ranged fighter in my team. (1 tank paladin, 1 melee paladin, 1 barbarian, 1 hybrid fighter, 1 ranger and 1 priest).

I guess I have top Up that post. Still no answer (and I looked for other topics too)

Thanks for informing us about the fact you working on it ! If you can get on eye on the fact the quest end without giving any reward (no experience especially) too that could be cool ^^ I stopped playing there and I'm waiting for a fix now ! Thank you !

And I'll add after doing some tests : It looks like all the NPCs are acting like I never finished the quest. They still saying things like "Found anything ?"

Hello everyone ! I create this topic because I have a problem with my quests. I did the whole Sanatorium Main Quest and spoke with the statue at the end to finish it (after : "SPOIL SPOIL" : Choosing Azo fate "END OF SPOIL"). I received no XP, so I checked my journal to discover that the quest was finished. I reloaded my quick save (I just did one before talking the the statue) to check the XP on my characters and retried it. The XP didn't changed after the quest ended. On the wiki it says it's a quest with a Major Experience Type and an Experience level of 4. My characters are level 8 and 7. Is it normal ? Do they have a too high level ? Should I speak to a NPC again ? Or is it a bug ? "SPOIL SPOIL" : And I think I received no XP with the quest where I saved the little girl who lost her family (they became ghouls) too. "END OF SPOIL". If someone knows that problem and has a solution or an explanation, i'll be grateful to hear it !