Veolfen

They did the double element on the flail Sun&Moon tho. But yeah something like this could be cool ! This + a slight buff to 2h weapons and the lady of pain will be really back !

dunehunter would agree :D Well at best 2H swords have "decent" enchants *Removed the list of enchanted swords by Myself* Let's not forget we're in the no spoiler section ! Yeah unarmed weapons could be cool, even tho i'm not much into those kind of weaps, i had fun times using ceastus in Dark Souls I thought it be cool to have an "offhand glove" that could go with a 1 handed weapon, so you can mix sword slashes with punches :D

Halberds, Maces, Arbalests & Crossbows too. More hammers wouldn't hurt too (could be cool if they added a 2 handed warhammer like they did for battle axes with last dlc) You kind of listed everything else. Also it could be cool to get a 2H sword with powerful enchants

As stated above Single classes just need : -More ressources -A slight buff to level 8 and 9 abilities (for the ones that need them) -And also give some of them (mainly martial classes, it would affect multiclass too) a bit more scaling with powerlevel since it's their selling point alongside level 8 and 9 skills. It can be the way to buff the skills of single classes abilities

That's hyperbole. Full Attacks: Flames of Devotion Penetrating Strike Crippling Strike Blinding Strike Wounding Shot Finishing Blow Strike the Bell Withering Strike Gambit Vanishing Strike Whirling Strikes Barbaric Blow Heart of Fury Vengeful Defeat Cleave (Cleaving Stance) Stunning Blow Flagellanth's Path Shared Pain Launching Kick Whispers of the Wind Primary Attacks: Knock Down Mule Kick Torment's Reach Sap Concussive Shot Twinned Shot Clear Out Power Strike Sundering Blow Force of Anguish Skyward Kick Taste of the Hunt That's hardly 90%... and surely not a "fact". Why do so many people use that term for anything but actual facts nowadays? But it's also more than 50% - so the basic direction of your statement is right. 20 vs 12, still much more full attacks than primaries, especially when the most useful ones are mainly in full attack category. Also I was pointing out the fact we use way more full attacks then primaries like dunehunter said :

Played a lot of fighter there. Here are my 2 cents : Fighter HL skills are decent at best, the armor stripping skill is nice but not really beastly. They aren't worth the sacrifice of the multiclass potential. Having played Single Class Fighter, multi class Fighter/Barb and Fighter/Paladin and actually doing a Fighter/Rogue playthrough i assure you : Always go for multciass with fighter : Also pick devoted if you really want the best damage output possible (aim for 2h Sword ,Morning Stars or Staff, estocs are good too but they only have 1 damage type and it can be troublesome for a devoted vs immune targets). Then multiclass choices : -Fighter/Barb for multihit and fast recoveries : you will clean mob packs quite fast -Fighter/Paladin : really solid and consistant single dps and you are much tankier : distribute active skills decently so you consume ressources decently on each sides -Fighter/Rogue : very high single target dps and crits a lot : take mainly discipline strike & defensive active skills (and maybe 1 control skill) on the fighter side and pick offensive skills from rogue tree. Also combine the nice passives of the 2 classes. -Fighter/Monk : Might have a very nice damage potential, but i don't like monk classes in video games so i can't describe it. For further elements about the best 2 handers we spoke about them in this topic : https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/103466-after-hours-of-games-thoughts-on-bests-2-handers/

The reason Dual Wield are also way better than others is the fact that 90% of the martial art skills are full attacks.

Important to not let this thread disapear ! Two-Handers are underwhelming for a few reasons and a few tweaks could make them worth something : -Too much full attacks : Dual Wield outburst Two Handers because most skills are full attacks. -Unique enchantements on two handers are as powerful or weaker than the ones we find on one handed weapons : Dual wielding / Sword and shield and even single handed wielding have much more powerful effects/combinations/ proc speed of effects than two handers. In the end, two handers have less combinations, less powerfull effects, less dps and less burst than other damaging counterpart and can even underperform compared to a sword&shield settup. To fix this : 1) Add a 25%-50% damage buff for two handers on full attacks and/or always max damages for two handers on full attacks ! They won't get a buff for their basic attacks or primary attacks so they will still not be as competitive in dps area but they will get the burst we expect from them. 2) Add enchantments on uniques &/or buff the actual enchantments. Especially enchants like "10% chance to procs on crit", that can be enough for dual wielding because of fast attack speed (+ combination of 2 weapons enchants) but that are far from being useful on slow two handers.

I agree there's a lack of beautiful unique armor. I need a unique helmet with the "greathelm" skin ! So my knight can look cool AND be strong !

To buff 2 handers : Gives them a 25% damages buff (or max roll damages, or both) on full attacks. Buff their uniques so their bonuses are at least 67% more powerful than 1 handers.

That's a nice summoned weapon. But Voidwhell for exemple does : 10% raw 10% corrode Corrode resist reduction on the ennemy Chance to proc a raw damage spell on crits Has much more penetration 10% self damages but a weapon enchant can compensate for it. Yeah i know the wiki, i actually have almost all the weaps in my inventory so i know the upgrades and stuff. But was thinking about testings and combinations people could have discovered ^^ The sabres and flails have some insanes bonuses on their uniques, i'm kind of sad i don't find stuff as exciting on two handers And i don't like summoned weapons very much tho, i like having real steel in my hands But i know they are powerful. Still not my type of thing and it forces me to multiclass with a caster. I'm more interested with raw material.

Hello guys ! After finally finishing one playthrough, and having started a huge amount of other playthrought, i'm about to restard a new game for a solo POTD run. I tested many weapons and stuff and i want to make a 2 hander specialist for it. The thing is, while finding really powefull one handers easily, especially in the flails, sabers and swords categories, i still have a hard time finding real game changing 2 handers. 2 handers are disapointing it is known, but not only for their overall effectiveness, their uniques are quite disapointing too. Even tho there's a lack of power, has anyone tried to boost the potential of some uniques to dish out good damages ? What are your thoughts about the "bests" two handers in the game ? For what i tested : -Voidwheel looks like the biggest hitter of the 2 handed swords. Sanguine gives more sustain to the one wielding it while keeping decent damages boosts. -Lord Daryn Voulge do a really nice job as a single target weapon, but also does nice multitarget damages. Sadly no legendary upgrade It would have been my goto weapon. -Willbreaker is half bugged but looks like it has a huge potential with his passives. But i'd like some feedback because i lacked of specialiced followers to use it in my games. -All unique estocs looks really good but i'd like to avoid a single damage type weapon for a devoted. -Chromoprismatic Quarterstaff is powerfull and the reason people tend to consider the quarterstaff the only good two hander weapon type So did some of you find anything good ? Is willbreaker worth investing a devoted to Morning Stars ? Do I underestimate some other uniques ? Thanks in advance guys ^^

Exactly : Vigorous defensing + unbending = 4 discipline cost Paladin passive + lay on hands = 1 cost + better heal

Also the Paladins had 100% zeal recovery on kills and now it's 25% on kills. 25% on kills is still nice. Meanwhile Fighter is at 10% chance to recover 1 when he take a crit lol. At best it happens once in 3 to 5 fights.

Neither do a ranger and a pet if we're going by classic CRPG/D&D standards (eh, there was the beastmaster subclass, but pet+ranged was hardly class-defining). Paladins have been able to alternate between off-tanking and solid DPS since PoE1. I would have thought that currently in terms of DPS in Deadfire: 1. Rogue. 2. Monk 3. Wizard 4.Druid 5. Barbarian 6. Cipher 7. Ranger fighter 8. Priest 9 . Paladin I putting priest above paladin becasue they get holy fire, shining beacon Fighter has less dps than Paladin and actual no potential once every member of the party reach level 10 and + Paladin on the other hand can be insane with fire focus dps. And they are also overall tankier than fighter at level 10 and + too. In any case, you shouldn't compare to fighter in the end : they are both not the best dps at all. Lay on hands is better than unbending Anyway, both classes, and many other classes need a good look at their mid to endgame abilities anyway.

I get your point and i agree partially with you. But i'm gonna extend what I disagree with : "Fighter isn't specialised in DPS" is still a poor excuse tho. It's what people want to hear about him because they won't bother. They just see him as a "multiclass passive stack" class or a send-in and forget tank. Still, 2 of his 3 classes are dps oriented, and a lot of his skills are focused on damages : The charge is good for an offensive or defensive char, and you have an interrupt, and his debuff are kind of weak, not the best debuff, not the best aoe and have a short duration. In the end as a tank he's mainly just a meatshield thanks to his natural deflection + 45 secs health recovery and that's it. And as a damage dealer well as stated above, he does decent but his outclassed by everything (single class ranger included, who actually still has a decently good dps even tho everyone say he's ****). Also i like all kind of fighter archetypes, tanks, dps, etc.. but the thing is, they are all disapointing in POE, not only the DPS one, but the tank too. (1 and 2, but in 1 it became a bit stronger with white march skills and durgan armor buff). And i tested many other classes (i did multiple games and created a huge amount of custom adventurers), and all single classes, even paladins felt they were missing something and most of the time ended up playing cards instead of being in my parties. That just sums up how "single class" fighter is extremely lackluster. He's the exemple i know the most, but this problem is the same for a lot of single classes (even paladin). But i don't want him to be the best dps, but he should be "decently good at least" and not "just decent at best ^^ Nope, I don't say the skill is balanced, but a 4 cost skill isn't about dmg. If you look at a full upgraded powerstrike, it do lot of dmg on a single target (+100%dmg, 4pen), debuff it, do dmg to people in AOE (you never counted it in your calculation) and debuf them. On top of that you gain 2 buff for 10 sec. Plenty of things for 4pts. Now the problem of skill cost, I think, is that at the begining (beta) each upgrade unlocked a new skill with often a different cost. Now you pay for the upgrade even if you don't get it. It depend of skills. That lead to 2 big problems : - Upgrade are not an option anymore, there is no reason to not take them (less choice) and until you unlock the upgrade the skill can feel overpriced. - Abilities at PL 6-7 that have an upgrade at PL 8-9 become less interesting for multiclassing, reducing the choice when MC. That participate in the feeling that a MC can just unlock all the good stuff. Even for a single class that can make the mid range tier feel less interesting. A basic power strike worth 3 discipline I think, and 4 for the upgraded one. It's the same with the rogue and whithering strike : 3 guile just for 1 debuff? I think a 2 cost and then 3 cost when upgraded feel better. When a base ability feel a bit overpriced without the upgrade, they should separate the upgrade as a new ability. Yeah i see your point for Powerstrike and i agree on the 3 to 4 point cost when it becomes Inspired Strike could make it more interesting. Even tho, i think Powerstrike AND Inspired Strike are really not worth the cost, and should be BOTH at 3, even tho you get small bonuses, because the AOE damages aren't really great, and if the character is a single class fighter who has multiple mobs to hit you'll need to save those points, because after 3 powerstrike, you'll be out of points and a lot of mobs would still be standing, and you'll be much more effective and ressource efficient spamming clear out for this. Also, putting Inspired Strike at 4 and Powerstrike at 3 would convince a lot of people to not pick the Inspired strike upgrade for a buff that only lasts 10 seconds. Making single class even less attractive than it actually is. And the idea is the same for rogue as you say, some tweak to HL skills are needed. Because the point of the topic isn't to speak of the fighter, but of many single classes, but i find him being a shining example of how lackluster most of the single classes are, and how power level interact poorly with martial art abilities.

Paladin will crit less often than Fighter/Paladin. He will still be tankier and pull out more single target damages constantly overall. In any case, it's still weaker then the multiclass : his high level skills kind of suck, so that sums up the main point of the topic you tend to forget there. You guys are stopping on this, which is an example and are forgetting the point of the topic : Buff single classes and make high level abilities relevant (Paladin included). I don't want them to be more powerful or as strong, but a bit more competitive and to have a reason to exist. Something more "specialised" you know ? And not just a straight downgrade A fighter/paladin can. Paladin cannot interrupt, but he has way more usefull tools, like heals, buff for the team, antidebuff, revive, is tankier while hitting harder. And you can achieve all those things too with the fighter/paladin because all the powerfull tools of those 2 comes in their early level skills, proving the problem with single classes i'm pointing out with this topic. Also, interrupt isn't really good, most of the time it just adds a 2 seconds delay for the cast while you put yourself in a 4 seconds cooldown for this. Engagement is not as strong as people tend to think, you'll have better tanks with paladins that can buff people, heal and still keep agro without the need of engagement, or even a martial class mixed with wizard for buff and controls or chanter who will do a much better job at tanking with invocations. People who think engagement is very powerful and fighter is okay just for this are just caster/rogue mains that just want to throw in their tank and forget it so they can spam their abilities freely. Either way, what you quoted was an exemple of an undherwhelming tool, made for "damages", that costs way too much for its effectiveness. And as I stated above, you just point out my exemple not looking at the fact it's about the weaknesses of single classes and how not worth it many high level abilities are, forgetting that it's here to illustrate the fact there's no reason to pick a single class , because of how not worth it their HL abilities are for most of them (and i said most, not all), and that giving more use to powerlevel could fix that easily without destroying the balance. This topic is here to suggest "slight" buffs for single classes by tweaking powerlevel and their HL skills, not just fighter, but most of the single classes, even paladin. I know it's not all about single target dps, but it's a skill that exists for damages, and a 4 cost damage skill should be a burst skill (not a dps one since it drains a third of your ressources) and if you want to aoe, you'll better of using clear out than this. Powerstrike is a bad skill that you'll never use because it will just drain all of your stamina for slightly above average damages. And speaking of different roles, at tanking, Paladins will outtank a fighter, and a lot of multiclass and some casters too, and at dps, all the dps classes outdps it, for single target AND multi target. And i don't want fighters to be "OP" i want ALL CLASSES" to be "decent" or good at 1 specific role you specialised them for. For EXEMPLE : fighter shouldn't have the highest dps, or aoe, but with his hit to crit conversion and a 4 discipline skill called POWERstrike, he should be able to pull of once or twice in a fight a really high crit roll with this you know ? And as a tank something more than being a meatshield that's because take the hit sucks ass. You stopped on just one exemple, we're not here for the fighter only, but for many single classes who share the same problem, even Paladin which is considered one of the strongest classes, but will 99% be multiclassed with something. Powerlevel affect little skills, and a lot of HL abilities are underwhelming or just suck a lot. A tweak to power level can fix this, combined with some balancing for many skills so already strong skills don't get too strong, and bad skills could get reworked and or just buffed by the powerlevel. So let's stop "correcting others" on exemple and get back on the main focus of the topic : -Single classes are pointless for many classes, they can hold their own, but are not rewarding at all and are outshined by every single char that is multiclassed. Mainly because of bad/underwhelming HL abilities and powerlevel ineffectiveness. Doesn't mean they have to be stronger, multiclass SHOULD be stronger, or more "multitask", but single classes should be more specialised and damn effective at it, and not just a straight downgrade to every multiclass. -Powerlevel is pointless for many classes : An almost useless attribute that is the selling point of the single classes shouldn't be that bad, and should be tweaked, and the tweak could be the best way to give more power and attractiveness to some HL abilities.

That Fighter and Rogue high-level abilities sit comfortably deep into meh territory is the main issue here (along with the aforementioned bloat of meh low- and mid-tier abilities that make multiclassing attractive so you don't have to waste points on stuff that adds little to no value.) If I look at the Fighter tree, there's nothing past PL 7 that makes me say, "I want this." Paladin is kind of in the middle ground. They have a good number of desirable abilities to spend points on in the early and mid game, but lose appeal at higher levels because the high-tier abilities are meh (perhaps not as much as the Fighter's, but they're not attractive enough to make me want to play a single-class Paladin.) That's the main problem of a lot of single classes : High level abilities aren't giving the "i want this" feeling. Combined with the fact Balthazar pointed out, that multiclass gives the opportunity to pick good tools from both classes, feeling the gaps you have when a class gives ****ty stuff. + The combination of bonuses making a multiclass more powerful even tho it has less power level (and also a multiclass can use more abilities) + Since power level 9 is quite useless compared to 7 on many single classes since it's effects are poor on many abilites, especially for martial artists. While multiclass is supposed to be stronger and funnier, that doesn't mean a single class has to be that low compared to them, even tho they hold their own "decently" since it's a pve game. MC can be balanced by nerfing the base damages on the skills getting this new scaling as i stated in the previous posts. Making them slightly weaker early and still getting the power they actually have in midgame, and getting a slight increase lategame. (like same at 4, and higher once at 5, 6 and 7 powerlevel). A singleclass would get more scaling when reaching 9 (or 10 if you take a powerlevel increase talent) Also the combination gives a lot of damages, not like, a bit more, but a ****ton more, on a skill that you get at level 1 on paladin, compared to a high rank power skill on a fighter. I actually have a swashbucler that does higher damages with powerstrike with the combination of stuff, but it's on par with the pal, while still costing 4 discipline, so no spam possible there. Also, you said it's not supposed to be "all about dps", but a skill that costs 4 shouldn't be outshined, even tho it's by a multiclass, by that much by a level 1 skill that costs 1. Paladins kind of outshine fighter on almost everything for exemple, so it's not only a problem of "different role" in the game. Like single class fighter is bad as dps and decent at best as a tank (only more engagement then others and that's it). Same for a single class ranger who's outdps by anything (but dps fighters). Still, i'm not saying "single classes are bad" but more "single classes" are way too far behind mutl classes. Your last point is right, but a lot of people are pointing it out, myself included : Level 7 to 9 skills are quite unattractive on a lot of classes, making single classes even more pointless. So the point isn't to make fighter a better dps than paladins, but something that has a reason to exist.

Well, let's see. You could go with a poleaxe or a morning star that has a third type of damages that would make a polyvalent ready for all situations weapon. You could go with a morning star that adds afflictions (so it would stack with its modal) and make it a debuff monster. You could add an effect on crit, like spreading the afflictions to ennemies around when you crit etc.. You could go with a poleaxe with engagement bonus (so it stacks and fits to the modal)+ damage bonus depending of the amount of engaged ennemies + boosts to disengagement attacks. You could throw in defense bonuses so you choose between disangagement damages bonus or defense bonus, making this poleaxe a nice alternative for a tank/offtank. You could go to a fire greatsword, that could act like Lord Daryn Vouge , with Slash/Fire instead of Slash/Thrust, and multiple fire effects like Fire pl increase, dots, an aoe/per encounter fire ability etc... You could go on a crit specialised 2 handers, like the sword of St Rumbald in POE1, that adds accuracy bonus, hit to crit bonus, crit damage bonus. etc.. straight crit focused single target damages. etc... But i think you should make a thread where you ask the advices of players for this mod. Let's keep this topic about the global balancing needed for 2 handers ^^

That's the whole point of the topic. It shouldn't affect wizards more than it actually does on them already, while it should give additionnal effects on some other classes, especially martial classes who often never really benefit from power level at all. At rank 9 you unlock a +1 powerlevel, but why even bother ? Powerlevel could give more reason to pick single classes, while not destroying the multiclass. I'm not one that wants multticlasses to get nerfed, i want single classes to have a reason to be picked. Most are viable, it's a PVE game in the end, but still, the difference of power is sometime incredible. For exemple : -In my first game i made a 2 hander fighter At level 16 he was well geared and stuff he was "decent" at taking out targets, hitting constantly around 45 to 100 depending of high roll and crits or not, his biggest hit being a high roll powerstrike crit at 127 damages. I made a level 15 fighter/paladin to see the potential with a mix of buffs. With non enchanted exceptionnal items + lord darryn vouge, the very first hit he did was 150 damages !! I thought I got lucky but he kept rolling those damages over and over again, hitting 200+ for max damages hits and stuff. Stat wise, they are at base almost the same (18 might/12dex/18 perception for fighter and 17 might/14dex/19 perception for crusader), but with gear the fighter was above by far. Still the damage difference was INCREDIBLE. Not like i only used normal attacks on the fighter and empowered flame of devotion on the crusader. I compared damages between a crusader spamming flame of devotion to the max damages reach on a high roll crit on a high level fighter skill that cost 4 discipline lol. A lot of skills could become much more interesting with a decent interaction with power level.

Once i've unlocked a few more success i'll consider going for mods tho. So i would be interested by this. It could be cool to see a (or multiple) nice unique morning star and a (or multiple) nice unique poleaxe. And if you could find something to mod the "maximum attack" stat for 2 handers it would be nice too ^^

Yes and that's where the "slight ability base damages nerf" could be of use if the scaling of wizards spells gets too high with that change. And he already has damage scaling coming from powerlevel anyway. Still kind of boring to mix your Fighter with a paladin or barbarian that betrays the kind of archetype you'r aiming at for your character. Did some nice games & builds with multiclasses, but all "martial" singleclasses I did ended up being very limited, the fighter being the most unsatisfying i got to play even tho it's my favorite rpg class. But western rpgs tend to not treat this class well most of the time anyway. So a small buff to single class efficiency could still be welcome in any case. As i said, it should be a slight damage increase, like +3% damages on abilty/ power level (coming with a nerf to the base damages of some abilities that would get too strong) I agree, with the caveat that single-class Monk is actually really good (and so is single-class Barbarian.) While they are strong enough, they are still outclassed by far by multiclasses including them (xxx/barb or yyy/monk). Also not all the single classes are good, some are decent at best. Fighter/Ranger/etc... even Paladin (considered one of the most powerful classes of POE2) are kind of not worthy as single classes, even tho they can hold their own since it's a pve game, because of how pointless power level is and how their toptier abilities are not powerful enough to justify not going for multiclass (some hl abilities are good, but aren't powerspikes worth the sacrifice).

Right now, most of the single classes are outclassed by multiclasses by a large margin (except for wizards, but they are the strongest class in the game since release anyway). And i think it can be fixed by pretty much tweaking how the power level works. The thing is, single classes have for selling point the fact they get more "power level", but on a lot of them, except getting a slightly higher buff/debuff duration for their skills, it doesn't do much more. Power level should increase the damages of all the damaging abilities in the game for exemple, so many classes like barbarian or ranger could get a nice scaling on them so they don't need to rely on an other class ability (meaning they're almost forced to multiclass) Power level need to have a slightly higher impact overall, on every classes, not only a few casters ,an impact that would reflect the scaling of abilities : Maybe slight nerfs on abilities base damages but that would increase everytime the character gets powerlevel : weaker the first levels, around the same till level 10 then it gets better and better the more the class gets powerlevel (4+ maybe ?). Multiclasses would still have a decent chunk of powerlevel to keep it as powerful as it is today, or slightly stronger, while single classes could really feel they are the "specialists" that outshine multiclasses for at least 1 thing. Also maybe give all single classes +1 powerlevel at level 20 I wrote this topic because i really think the key to a decent balance between single classes and multiclasses can really be achieved through a few tweaks to power level. What do you think about it guys ?

Bought a Dhow, gave him all the fastest upgrades, gave him 2 bronzes and called him Blitzkrieg.

That would be way too huge there. -1 pen might be too much for 1 handed weapons considering the armor buff the ennemies get in POTD. +3 pen is too much for 2 hander, meaning they will overpen anything the game throws at you. +2 maximum i'll say. For the full attacks i agree, a +25% damages or the max damages and an accuracy bonus for 1 handed (or maybe a crit damage bonus) could be a good idea yeah.