Lancer

Wolverine is a good ant-hero

When I first read this I thought it read "seduction" instead of "deduction." I was about to say, what kind of campaign are you running Jediphile?!

I think it is pretty much a no-brainer. KOTOR2 wasn't even a finished product. The last third of the game was a confusing hodgepodge of rushed events. Because of that, KOTOR1 felt more polished, had a cleaner, better storyline, and a better plot twist. KOTOR1 > KOTOR2

I think I recall beating Traya/Kreia the very first time.

Malak was easy! I just ran around and drained all the jedi while he just stood there like the ****ed up moron he is(was!) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yep. If you are DS.. He is REAL easy.

I really like how he (or more than likely she) keeps everyone on track. The no-nonsense moderator. Anyhow, all the bosses were simple. Malak was the hardest "I guess" only because he would re-energize himself again and again.

Hmmm.. You and Ender used the same Cthulhu Kitty avatar too.....And both of you were always the top two in post count.. And now that Ender "left" you have been posting a whole lot more recently... <_< I wonder...

Yep. Very true. In fact, in OD&D, THACO was an optional rule. You can definitely do away with the concept in AD&D as well.

I think this is beyond the scope of what our discussion was (and more to do with what Sawyer is talking about with respect to PnP games not being overall very intuitive). If you explain to someone what AC represents, I'd bet all of my money that a vast majority of them would initially assume that they would want a higher AC value. I'd suspect you could accidentally forget to explain that a higher value is better with 3rd edition and have little to no confusion more consistently then you could by omitting that detail with AD&D. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But that's the point alanschu, You are looking at it through a CRPG player's perspective whereas Jediphile and I can see it from both a PnP and CRPG player's perspective. The difference is that people not intimately familar with PnP are shielded (or some would say protected) by the computer from the ugly details that you take for granted. The computer does all the nasty calculations like AoO, stacking, AC vs. missiles, melee..etc for you. All you see as a result is-- "the higher the AC, the better"... There is so much more to AC than that . There is so much more to 3e or 2ndEd than that. Unless you are intimate with the PnP ruleset in question you won't really get a good feel of just how complicated 3e is to 2ndEd and vice versa.

Exactly. Once you get into the rule SPECIFICS, things become unintuitive real quick. That is the problem with people who only play CRPGs and don't play PnP and then make quick judgements about how intuitive or unintuitive x-system is. Things may seem intuitive in 3e at face value (mainly because the computer does all the complicated calculations and takes into account all the rule intricacies for you) but it is once you start getting into the nitty gritty you realize that 3e (or for that matter, 2ndEd) isn't intuitive at all. Things may just "seem" intuitive to us only because that is what we are used to.

Hmmm....do you know what...probably. I had very briefly played FF2 (4) on a friend's Super Nintendo, but not too in depth. I doubt I knew what "RPG" meant at the time. I remember immediately falling in love with the world of U6, even though I didn't really know how to play the game. When Ultima VII came out, I asked my Dad for a PC to play it on (until then, my "PC" gaming was all Apple...Apple II and the Mac). 386/SX 16 MHz for the win! (though it was slow for U7). I have undying respect for the Ultimas. But even the Ultimas had ACs that got better the higher they were. So, Is it that surprising after getting used to Ultima and then later playing the Gold Box games, that you would find AD&D AC progression to be unintuitive? You must understand that I started playing OD&D and AD&D PnP about the same time I started playing console and computer RPGs. Which is probably why I am pretty indifferent as to how AC is handled. As long as it is easy to learn it doesn't matter to me if it goes up or down. The same way you would explain that and AC -2 is better than an AC of 4 for 2ndEd. Once you let them know that the smaller the AC is, the better their armor class, they get that too. In either case, one thing is understanding the broad gist of what someone is telling you (in this case, the GM).. It is another thing altogether to be able to apply all those mechanics correctly in a PnP game. It takes even more time to become familiar enough with the mechanics that they become second nature. This is true for both 2ndEd and 3e. That is all that really matters. As long as its easy to use. Whether or not people will think 3e AC is more intuitive at first glance than 2ndEd AC is really not relevant in the long run..AC itself is just a tiny crumb from the entire pie. You still have to learn the rest of the game mechanics and no matter what, that will take a lot of effort regardless of system. Josh Sawyers has said recently that PnP RPG rulesets aren't inituitive. All of them. And that includes 3e. I agree with that assessment. The difference is that some just take less effort to learn than others.

I never said AD&D was intuitive. I don't over-generalize like some and claim that 3e is "intuitive" (w00t) .. talking about fallacious.. :D My point is that what you personally deem as intuitive is wholly dependent on your previous experiences and what you are used to. Nothing less and nothing more. BTW, Nice dodge though, SS. You are awesome, man.

However, I can grab some of my PnP collection when I go home for the Spring Break in March.

You're not the first to consider it. Maybe you can find some inspiration here <{POST_SNAPBACK}> HAHAHA!!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ...Ok...now...anyone likes to GM for newbie? ...please?...very,very please? :ph34r: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Since you have asked a couple of times, I will definitely consider it. The only problem is that I have none of my PnP material with me right now. All of it is on the other side of the country. I am an out-of-state student. I mean, I can fabricate something on the fly but it wouldn't be canon.

Ultima VI was your first RPG? I just don't think using numbers to characterize stats or explaining any sort of RPG "concept" would be intuitive to a complete novice. After you explain it once or twice or so then they finally say.. "oh yeah...I get it." That goes for Armor Class in 3e too. Those who say that novices got 3e AC the first TIME, are lying. In any case, perhaps I should get my parents who don't know anything about PnP or computer games and see what they think in regards to 3e/2ndEd AC and THACO. I know in my experience, I had not a dang problem with AD&D THACO. It is like walking or breathing to me. But then again, maybe I am weirder than everyone else.

Adventure games? Zelda?

You're not the first to consider it. Maybe you can find some inspiration here <{POST_SNAPBACK}> HAHAHA!!!

I had to explain a higher AC meant better defense before. Apparently, it wasn't intuitive. Learning any RPG concept is completely un-intuitive to a total novice. By novice, I mean people who haven't played PnP, console or PC RPGs. Someone that has tried one of those 3 media already has some predetermined bias and for these purposes can't be considered a novice. Heck.. anybody who has played Zelda or other adventure games can't be considered novices because those games already have the concept of Levels, AC and Hit Points..etc Alanshu, did you play many RPGS before playing Baldur's Gate I? Did you play JRPGs before playing BG1? We already know you didn't play AD&D PnP. Definitely a factor.

Speeding tickets going down is good. Population going down is good for some over-crowded countries.. Compulsive over-eating and gluttony (more is better) is not good

And you all are stuck on THACO. The difference is that THACO is easily fixed in 2ndEd whereas 3e AoO is not. As Jediphile pointed out, getting rid of AoO does not ensure game balance. And that is quite the point isn't it? Maybe this is more of a philosophical argument but... There are only 2 possibilities: a)Do people think 3e AC is more intuitive because it inherently IS necessarily... Or b)Do you all find it more intuitive because you are just used to equating "higher ACs being better" from previous RPGs and adventure games you played? In the case of "b" it is no surprise that you would feel something you are used to, to be more intuitive. This is a chicken and egg question and I don't believe the answer is clear cut. I personally believe that the latter is what is going on from my own experience.. But hey..

See post #33. I already went over this. You should know better since you claim yourself that whether you are a night-time or day-time person is reflective of your schedule in terms of when you decide to sleep or not. Likewise, what an individual deems as "intuitive" is greatly dependent on his or her past experiences. To tell you the truth, I had to do a double-take when I first saw the 3e AC system since I had gotten so used to 2ndEd. And it is even ridiculous to bring this up, SS. Since it is such a trivial matter to change 2ndEd ACs to 3e ACs. Just subtract from 20. That's it. So stop whining. Now how is THACO harder or less intuitive than AoO again? Can you explain that to me in more complete terms than "if he lets his guard down, the enemy gets a free attack?" In most RPGs, higher ACs are better. Because of that, 9 out of 10 people are used to playing RPGs where higher ACs are better. This does not mean necessarily that there is something inherently more intuitive about higher ACs being better. We sure do. 2ndEd.

You understood Attack of Opportunity perfectly the first time? All the rules on stacking and deflection? and understood all the ins and outs about cross-class skills? WOW (w00t) I know I didn't. Last time I checked I had to go online and see examples to completely comprehend the finer details about Attack of Opportunity. I had a much easier time learning 2ndEd than 3e. And 2ndEd was one of the first systems I learned when I didn't know that much about RPGs. In fact, I had a much easier time learning most systems than 3e.

Definitely. Especially when it is such a trivial matter to convert 2ndEd ACs to 3e ACs, as you do Jediphile.. 3e AC= 20 - 2ndEd AC If you don't like negative ACs then just apply the above and that's it. End of story. It isn't the end of the world. If SS and others changed to 3e just because of that minor nuance then I suggest coming up with more substantial arguments as to why 3e is better than 2ndEd. This "problem" is a quick fix in 2ndEd and really isn't as big a deal as Shadowstrider and others want to make it. Now AoO isn't a quick fix unless I ignore the concept altogether which would kinda be defeating the purpose since it was meant to be a core 3e mechanic.

I believe I just stumbled upon why some people find 2ndEd THACO counter-intuitive. If they were to use my method... I should publish this and become famous..

Yeah you use a slightly different variant: AC = Mod THACO - die roll. I don't go through all that hocus pocus... The players may not know the ACs but the GM does. In my game the players roll and since I know the AC (and they know their Mod. THACOS),I tell them if they hit or not. And they need not ever know the AC. Simple. Efficient. I probably custom-tailored the equation a long time ago but the point is that for me, it works. It works very well. Maybe that is why I never had problems with THACO? And it is faster than doing all that stating and what not especially since my variant gives you the "to hit" roll right away.. I effectively know what they need to hit the enemy even before they start rolling the dice. The AC variant only gives you the AC, and although you get the same final answer.. You have an extra step to do after they roll.