Lancer

At least you are not hypocritical... "

This is just the most ignorant statement that has been said on this thread. So you are saying that there are no educated, successful people or professionals that listen to rap? Talk about letting your personal feelings on the matter get in the way of logic. Just because you don't like rap doesn't mean it isn't music or that only gangsters and thugs listen to it. That comment alone shows just how clueless you really are about rap. Not all rap is "gangster rap." A common misconception. I suggest doing your homework first before you blurt fallacious and offensive blanket statements. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 90% of it is crap and there has to be some research that listening to it lowers your IQ . I think what bugs me the most is the people you see who listen to it (majority). The crap that spawns from it (wiggers, 13 yr wannabeGs, and dave chapelle) pisses me off more than the music. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Do you like country music?

This is just the most ignorant statement that has been said on this thread. So you are saying that there are no educated, successful people or professionals that listen to rap? Talk about letting your personal feelings on the matter get in the way of logic. Just because you don't like rap doesn't mean it isn't music or that only gangsters and thugs listen to it. That comment alone shows just how clueless you really are about rap. Not all rap is "gangster rap." A common misconception. I suggest doing your homework first before you blurt fallacious and offensive blanket statements.

But KoToR2 was a marginally disappointing game.. Even without all the hype. It just didn't live up to its predecessor. There are some games that have actually lived up to the hype.. Granted, few and far between.

This is partly why I am cautious when it comes to playing JRPGs.. The good news, however, is that random wandering encounters are really close to being phased out entirely in modern JRPGS. But that is not the worst of it... What still remains in JRPGS is that awful, boring menu-driven combat system that doesn't allow you to position your characters and lends itself to some serious button-mashing. I wish more JRPGs had the strategic combat system that Shining Force or Grandia have.

First, I can't stand Final Fantasy. Second, although Xenogears was a *great* game it had *a LOT* of random encounters. I think you mean Xenosaga instead? In Xenosaga you can always see the enemies on the main view and one was able oftentimes to sneak around them. But even like that Xenogears managed to be better than any of the Xenosaga games, IMHO.

Rap is the greatest music there is

Strong words...ouch As always, Gromnir has such a way with words that in and of itself is akin to art.

Is three

Albeit a little disgusting.. But I must admit I liked it.

There have been paintings done by unknown artists, that are still considered art and are even in today's museums. Art has nothing to do with "intent" of the creator, but rather, has a lot to do with the observer. If the observer sees extra meaning above and beyond what is obviously portrayed within the images depicted by the artist, then to the observor it is art.

There is no point talking about "bad art." Where's the fun in that? " .

Some people make paintings just to make a living or entertain people.. Their work is not art either? Or is it art just because it is not on a computer screen? What does intent have anything to do with it? So...Art on a canvass isn't really art either, it's brush strokes. So just because you decide to reproduce something on a computer screen instead of a canvass automatically disqualifies it from being art? Even though it is the same exact piece of work? What if you draw something on a computer screen with the expressed intent of entertaining people, it ceases to be art now just because it is on a computer screen? Why does the type of paper or pencil you decide to draw something with dictate if what you drew is art or not?

Art is more than just what is taught in your art class. I think most would agree that art in its most general sense is a more broad all-encompassing term. As for liking to use my favorite x.. Art is subjective and revolves around a person's tastes. I have merely given examples of what I personally deem as art.. No doubt that my list of examples will be different from someone else's.

With something being called "art" comes a connotation of "high quality".. The problem is that what one deems as high or low quality is subjective.

I mean you have to start somewhere and have some basic assumptions. If you don't start with some basic "standard" then it makes no sense to ever discuss anything.

I think Planescape: Torment is a true example of a modern work of art ... particularly from a story/literature standpoint. Heck, I thought the story was on par (or even more profound) than other works of art such as the Odyssey or 1984. When one considers the extra level of IMMERSION and INTERACTION that a classic novel obviously lacks, it transcends the so-called "works of art" IMHO. Nothing beats RPGs as a media for storytelling because not only do they tell a story but the player's actions guide the plot. The player is not a passive bystander but an active, interactive presence in the story. In this sense RPGS done right are the pinnacle of literature-storytelling and this by itself makes games like Torment a true work of art.

Video games as a media is an art. Now whether "specific" video games are art or not is contingent upon a person's subjective tastes. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My point is that even your claim that the media is an art is subjective, as what defines a media as an art is subjective. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Then whether the concept of the existence of art itself is subjective, according to you. You are saying that: whether literature is art or not is subjective whether dancing, music, painting are forms of art is also subjective. I don't know if that is being subjective or just being pessimistic. If one starts nitpicking like this then whether or not we actually exist is also subjective. Regardless, I don't agree because I am sure nearly everyone can find at least one example in each of those categories that they would deem as art.

Video games as a media is an art. Now whether "specific" video games are art or not is contingent upon a person's subjective tastes.

If you are going down that route, it all belongs to the eye of the beholder again. There is much art and literature that people consider so, although my tastes preclude my recognizing them as such. i.e. How many times have you hated a critically-acclaimed movie or novel? I know it has happened to me *lots.* To me it may not be art, although to the rest of the world, it is. So in a sense, what one considers art can be a bit on the subjective side and can vary from person to person.

These definitions are as slippery as the Supreme Court's definition of pornography. They simply serve to promote one section of media over another, based upon the values of the manipulator of the definition. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I very much agree in these definitions and I was not the original manipulator of these definitions. I feel they hit the nail on the head for our purposes. I feel "art" and "literature" are a hell of a lot more straightforward to define than"roleplaying game" or "cyberpunk.". Talk about a headache :">

I don't understand this either. Video games are art. I thought it was appropriate to the discussion since literature is a form of art. And this thread is about video/computer games and whether they are art or not.

The short version: 1)All video games are art since they are the products of human creativity. 2) Literature is a specific sub-set or TYPE of art as it relates to "creative writing." Thus, only some art can be considered literature. 3) Literature can be defined as imaginative or "creative writing" especially of recognized artistic value 4) Although all video/computer games are works of art, only some can be specified as literature. This is because only SOME of them fufill the "imaginative/creative writing of recognized artistic value" requirement (i.e Torment, Xenogears..etc) In summary, Baldur's Gate, Torment, Diablo, and Xenogears can all be considered works of art. But only Torment and Xenogears are BOTH works of art as well as good literature.

And going to dictionary.com and googling the definition for "literature" this is what I get for the first two definitions: 1. The body of written works of a language, period, or culture. 2. Imaginative or creative writing, especially of recognized artistic value The second definition is case in point coming from an "art" perspective.

That seems like a fairly narrow perspective to filter through to determine if games are art. There is a lot more to interactive media than their stories or dialogs. Much more time goes into their look, their gameplay experience than their story, and a case could be made of course for the importance of sound in many games as well. To look at only the literary nature of a game is like determining a film's value as art based only on the script. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I am not saying that video games aren't "art." They all are. All literature is art, but not all art is literature.