ISC

Best as in most efficient for the class? Yeah perhaps, but that does not mean that rogues do less damage than anyone else in melee. Yeah, if you let your rogue die damage becomes a problem. But I've been running a melee rogue on PotD just fine, as long as you control the battlefield he can usually just waltz around blinding strike -stabbing people in the back with an estoc while they are flanked with the tank. They dont have the endurance (or deflection) to survive facetanking opponents, that doesn't make them useless or a worse damage dealer than a fighter. I also wouldn't call rogues a ranged class, not only for above reason but because they have melee-only and almost-melee-only abilities. Lets just say that rogues are less micromanagement when ranged (I used one of each). This is very interesting, but you don't find that the chanter lacks a bit on the defenses in the long run compared to fighters or pally? What difficulty-level are we talking about?

You can get distant advantage back fairly easily using the console, if you dont mind losing out on achievements?

Same on all levels (75, 50, 25%)? Does it affect the moon godlike character as well or only other allies? I can def see a moon godlike barbarian as viable if thats true, given the low deflection of barbarians. I think he was refering to 4 per tick (whatever that is, per second?). But if the total is about 20-30 thats good info as well. Its not bad at all, its kind of like an AOE lay on hands then. Any one of you know just about how big the AOE is? Compared to something else (paladin aura?) or guestimated in "meters"?

Could anyone tell me anything about the amount of endurance healed or the size of the AOE of the moon godlikes racial ability?

well, that is kinda the most important factor, isn't it? abilities and talents is of greater importance than starting attribute choices. such stuff is also more significant than starting accuracy, deflection and defenses. vigorous defense, a single fighter ability, grants +20 to all defenses for 15 seconds, and most battles don't even last that long. knockdown, as others have mentioned, is invaluable as it is effectively a stun that also significantly reduces enemy defenses. the paladin abilities, on the other hand, is support based. eder, the fighter companion, does not have great tank attributes, but 'cause of talent and ability choices, he becomes well nigh unstoppable relatively early in the game... and he also does respectable damage. *shrug* the paladin is a support class. if you wanna tank as a paladin, you need be very careful in selecting talents and abilities. HA! Good Fun! I just ran some tests up to level 12 and it seems you're right here, the paladin's talents cant keep up in the long run and that's a very significant difference. Although I don't like having to drop Zealots focus Fighters do single target melee damage better than anyone else too. Barbarians are AOE specialized. Uhm. Rogues?

not for secondary stats like accuracy and endurance.

Damage dealers? Really? The paladin has the same base stats as the fighter but worse accuracy, no? They are obviously good at tanking because of that (high hp and deflection + the inherent one). But why on earth would you consider them damage dealers? Because of a single ability that can be used twice and gives the same amount of extra damage as every single sneak attack the rogue makes? Even if we dont think of Rogues, its difficult to see how the paladin could out-damage an offensive fighter for example. That said, paladins are certainly a "support class", but a tanky one.

I'll answer without quotes because its getting too cumbersome, but its a very interesting discussion. From what I read there are two main advantages to the fighter: 1. Battlefield control (engagement + knockdown) 2. Constant recovery The paladin would on the other hand have: 1. A good offensive aura 2. Inherently good defenses (assuming you pick an order that suits you) The thing is that you can control the battlefield in other ways. Doorways are one, but I mostly use the ciphers AOE stuck+paralyze to keep enemies who don't go for the pally in check. And endurance recovery can of course be gained from potions, although I really haven't had to use that more than once or twice (yet!). Neither of these arguments negates the benefits of the fighter, I'm just not entirely convinced the fighter is the better tank. But maybe when you factor in all the talents over all levels the fighter has more useful abilities available. As for the armored and armed "monk" I guess that's another story, it sounds pretty fun though! Now, I have not played too far, just around defiance bay and level 5 or so, but on PotD, and I dont think my paladin has had any trouble tanking anything in particular, so I dont know about the boss argument. Let me know if I'm missing something, I really want to consider having a fighter as main tank in the long run. EDIT: Can you run defender and guardian at the same time or are they exclusive?

I fully agree with Gromnir, except on this. Or rather, I am probably missing something. What are the advantages of the fighter, multiple engagement? late game DR boost? Wont the fighters defenses be lower anyway? As for the monk, I thought the conclusion was that the monk was an ok tank with some offensive capabilities (as opposed to the other two)? Obviously the monk can negate some (10%?) damage if that is still in the game, and will have slightly more hp/endurance, but somewhat less defense again. Reading this thread, it's like if some believe that D&D invented the name "paladin". I see paladins in PoE like templars or teutonic knights. An order of dedicated warriors/knights. Its just nostalgia, but I think you got it right according to the way poe paladins are described in the game. They have a much broader concept which basically comes down to being part of an organization dedicated to an ideal (i.e. an order).

It wouldn't perhaps be the case that it also removes the stacking bonuses from the bug with equipment and saving? as a kind of hard reset? :/

Right now I'd be happy to get a non-retro hotfix of the solution Adam already has and just restart than waiting possibly the entire week..

I have also seen people being "engaged" from some 5 meters away.

Yes, a bit like godlikes, wild orlans are always incredibly hairy (but capable of constantly shaving or grooming their beard, it seems).

It seems that general accuracy is always for everything (For example, marksman or distant advantage applies to both spells and ranged weapons). Some stuff do indicate that it applies only to melee weapons though, such as ruthless assault, and that seems to work as intended. However, the fact that shields affect spell accuracy makes me wonder if weapons with increased accuracy or using a single onehanded weapon will increase spell accuracy? Hopefully the shield penalty for spells is deliberate, assuming that the shield is as much in the way of casting as hitting someone, and not a product of a system that applies any equipment modifier to spells.

Description: Sometimes when a cipher or two are casting multiple mental bindings on overlapping groups of enemies, one or more enemies may become both paralyzed and stuck. If the paralyze ends before the stuck debuff, the enemy will ignore stuck and move freely despite being "stuck" for a much longer time. This is quite common if you want to keep a group of enemies in the same place and casts a second mental binding when a paralyze is about to go out. Steps to Reproduce the Issue: See description. The second mental binding must target another enemy, but overlap the one paralyzed by the first mental binding.

It was kind of implied when they did a lot of balancing during the last few weeks before release.

I dont think any order-specific talent is very useful though. Not even the Kind Wayfarer's Strange Mercy talent that grants endurance to the paladin and nearby allies whenever the paladin defeats an enemy? Well, I dont know about the numbers, but I guess that if you would go with some kind of DPS paladin that might make sense. However, a DPS paladin wouldnt make much sense, especially with the nerf to.. eh.. +burndmg /encounter ability. Assuming that you have a tank paladin instead, which makes a whole lot of sense, you will not be doing much killing at all. Hardly ever. I mean, you would have really really low might, your less-than-perfect accuracy would be further nerfed through the floor by your large shield. Wielding a hatchet with negative might and no damage bonuses, grazing enemies with some damage reduction.. yeah. My paladin hits people for about 0,7 on average. Lets just say he doesn't kill people EDIT Although he sometimes fires a pistol for about 20 damage, if he hits, so he might have gotten some kills (usually in the opening of combat though). In any case, even if the paladin gets a kill or two now and then, would that justify taking that talent over.. I dont know, +6 accuracy aura? +to all defences? Hardly.

Actually, I usually accept bugs on release, but since these are major bugs that just about everyone seems to suffer from, I cant help but wonder how they could have been overlooked. People must have played through the game a couple of times, but didn't notice stats shooting past 21 or Rogues with more endurance than fighters? Or lost abilities for that matter? How is that possible? They were probably aware of the issues, but they couldn't afford, literally, to delay the game once more. The game has so many problems regarding skills, talents, items, companions and quests that's it's virtually impossible that they went through the QA process undetected. That's the reality of (modern) game development. Okay, I understand that, but I still dont get why they would prioritize balancing over two widespread game-breaking bugs? If we talk about small and/or avoidable bugs, the occasional crash or the odd incompatible hardware driver, sure, but this? It makes no sense to me.

But since this seems to be the same bug there must be some way to figure out when it happens to the PC as well. It is def not when saving in any area.

Actually, I usually accept bugs on release, but since these are major bugs that just about everyone seems to suffer from, I cant help but wonder how they could have been overlooked. People must have played through the game a couple of times, but didn't notice stats shooting past 21 or Rogues with more endurance than fighters? Or lost abilities for that matter? How is that possible?

Yeah this week, although for a bug this serious and widespread there should really be a hotfix before any other patch work is done.

This is working as intended, both 1 and 2. EDIT: Accuracy was removed from stats entirely and in order to make single weapons somewhat viable they gave it an accuracy bonus.

For stats id focus on: might, dex, perception > resolve > constitution > intellect (dump it). As for talents etc make sure you get enough accuracy (weapon focus for example) and try the vulnerable attack modal ability (because DW damage suffers from armor).

Isn't that supposed to happen, although its very abusable? Under normal circumstances it would only apply to the slower enemies, but there are of course some move speed auras and talents, so it might be possible to do this with most if not all enemies...

Well, if someone could figure out how to avoid the effect on the PC the game might just be playable still