Walsingham

War goes bang, and as much as I'd like it not to civilians get hurt. However, I doubt whether there has ever been a war machine that makes as much effort to avoid hitting civilians as the NATO pact. That is tactically in terms of the soldiers and airmen, operationally in terms of the planning and approval of attacks, or strategically in terms of the precision and design of the munitions. I was trained as a signaller, and so was exposed to a lot of HQ shenanigans even in my brief stint. If the output of that process does not meet your personal moral standards then I congratulate you on having high standards. But your lofty moral perch should not render the distance nil between our efforts and those of organisations whose entire raison d'etre is murdering civilians.

You heard it here first: I think Osama actually killed Obama in the war room, and has taken his face. Obama's body was the one which was put into the sea on Monday. ~~ Aside: US carriers have nuclear steam catapults for flinging fast jets off the deck. Use your imagination...

So you're calling it terrorism because you don't like it? That's not very helpful in communicating your point. I think you can see why I was confused. Whether your perception is accurate or not is something we've discussed already ad nauseam.

ROFL. I gotta say I think you're right. More bombs, LoF, more bombs!

Of course Al Qaida's methods evolved since the 80s to now days, it would be foolish of them if it didn't. While fighting the Soviets Islamic fighters used suicide bombers, IED and ambushes as pretty much the main technique of resistance. Afghan geographical landscape and Soviet inferior coverage and surveillance in the air compared to the present of the US allowed the Islamic forces to operate and engage the Soviets in countryside on a much larger scale then they do now. Such strategy can't work for example in Iraq due to the terrain and other factors. Hence the movement of operations to urban areas. When I talk about anti - US forces in Iraq and comparing them to those of anti - Soviet I do so for the insurgent groups that target US military targets, not the ones that deliberatly target civilians in order to spread chaos. But for many all anti -US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan are put in the same basket of terrorist&Al Qaida. For me that isn't the case. And I wouldn't say by far the comparison for the war in Korea nor do I see the label that connects it to the comparison I have made here. If you have any evidence that there's is any real distinction between groups attacking military tragets and those attacking civilian targets then I'd dearly love to see it. Feel free to PM.

Having the skill of self-criticism is strongly associated with academic succes, mate. But I more than accept your point about feasibility. If only because, you know, not everyone's the same (a fact that surprises most bureaucrats) and consequently a good swathe of your kids won't have the faintest clue how to self-assess.

LOL/ Good point. Never thought about that one before. Hands up everyone who says we shouldn't use spies? ~~ BTW, I'm getting utterly sick of lazy journalists in the UK calling the SEALS the equivalent of the Special Boat Service, just because they're under Navy authority. Lazy lying scumsuckers.

See that lady: ****ing loving it. Note also the name Anna Politkovskaya. ~~ The irony is that I love Russian jokes, Russian food, and Russian literature. It's just 'Obyknven/LoF' I can't stand.

I'm perfectly happy with the word assassination. I prefer 'retirement'. Since everyone dies, surely 're-scheduled' would be better?

I'm talking about Iraq. And how convinient is to put all the civilian deaths in Iraq under the carpet of collateral damage and terrorist actions. But who gives a **** hey? They are away in some country where everybody rides camels and after all they are better off now since they have democracy. Nice pat on your own back. A key ***ing differnce is that coalition operations are constrained by law and by massive layers of supervision to ensure that minimal civilian casualties occur. Terrorist attacks are specifically designed to cause maximum civilian casualties. I used to respect your brains, you know. What the hell happened?

Hilde, actually there HAS been a transition in AlQ methods since their ancestors they got trained by the CIA/SAS/my nan. I know this because I've slogged through several chapters of The Encyclopedia of the Afghan Jihad, but luckily (it's incredibly tedious and probably illegal to access now) for you it's simple common sense. The war in Afghan against the Soviets was fought largely in the countryside. AlQ now operates in urban areas, in western cities. As for your observation that anti-US terrorists and anti-Sov terrorists are identical is conflating the tactical and the strategic. Terror is a tactic, so obviously they are similar. The strategic differences should be obvious. You might just as well say that the war in Korea was the same on both sides because everyone fought in trenches and used tanks.

Your moves would be a bit slow if your blood was pumping at -30 degrees celsius.

Pretty plane, shame about the desolate wasteland it's flying over.

This is utterly pointless. What you are suggesting is a metric for policy which relies on only killing bad guys if we kill every single bad guy, regardless of any practical constraints caused by economy or foreign powers. Worse, you refuse to accept that bad guys plan and are responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people, and that they can't plan anything if they are dead. This may strike you as sensible from the ivory tower of academic endeavour. But translated into the real world the upshot would be a paralysis of action of precisely the kind which enable massacres that are happening right now as I type this. You may find that the satisfaction of abstract logic helps you ignore suffering, I don't.

To perhaps put this in a bit of context, I've been reading the excllent book Razor's Edge by Hugh Bicheno. In it he describes a British bayonet charge up a Falklands islands mountain into the face of 8 medium machine guns, plus mortars and .50 cals. On arriving at the trench line one corporal describes bayonetting half frozen Argentine conscripts with a broken stub of bayonet. My point is that those particular killings were legal, and understandable, but I think very regrettable and pathetic. This may or may not have been legal, but I really couldn't care less. So many people die from Bin Laden inspired and managed lunacy that it's not even reported in mainstream print anymore. There are far far better people out there who deserve attention, and far greater injustices. A sense of perspective is absolutely essential or we will certainly fritter away what little effort we have on the least deserving.

I'm perfectly happy with the word assassination. I think it is inefficent with aspirants. I prefer the more concise 'whacked'.

Since you live in Washington I've got good news and bad news. The good news is that you're not a hayfever sufferer. The bad news is that you got a snout full of commuter borne coke.

Or in Canada, like the surviving members of the Weathermen terrorist organisation. LOL

I'd suggest that where we are is a world where doing right shouldn't wait on the frankly impossible job of convincing the entire world that something is right. I take your point about checks and balances, but observe that this mirrors your earlier historical observation about the importance of the Cold War. That served to immobilise a lot of action. It didn't stop the key players from being arseholes. Of course, my view on moral relativism is that it's a fine intellectual debate, but if applied to practical situations results in a total absence of morality.

Even I hadn't given much thought to his African victims. Courtesy of the BBC:

Never even heard of it.

Don't listen to these bastards, oh gentle readers. Leave Tutu the **** alone. I've now moved on to BG2, and it's fething awesome. Although for some reason I'm finding it a lot easier than the last time I played. I'm starting to think that the Paladin improved saves are far more useful than fighter special attacks. Although I'm definitely regretting not going for Undead Hunter as my kit. Everything except the occasional farmyard hen keeps lowering my level.

What bothers me about all the clothing mods is that they utterly trash the bloody 50s styling. It's all whatsisname fantasy artist Boris Vallejo for the ladeez, and Call of Duty for the guys. FFS, make some effort.

How is it politically savvy to not vote at all, you mentalist?

So you think there was no fallout from the botched attempt to capture Mohammed Farrah Aidid? Or the botch job of trying to rescue the hostages from the US Iran embassy? Given that one helicopter was lost during this operation I'd say that supports my notion that things could have gone altogether differently. Dismembered servicemen being dragged around Pakistan would be a killer the year before an election, given Obama's direct personal involvement in the planning.