SilverSun

He/She could have choose exile.

Takes a little more to go through as con because you can't hack your way through and you lack in VP. Not to mention at the start of this one you won't be able to take advantage of the Con's strong point,the Force. So,in the early stages of the game it pry is a little harder to play through then with one of the other classes.

umm.... who says the laws of science as we know them are correct from the prospective of the univerese? I mean for a species that only in the last 100 years managed to split the atom, whos to say that we aren't wrong on alot of things? I know there are going to be people out there who are going to say because science is infalable, well thats not exactly true because it was created by humans and as such is inhairently(sp?) flawed. Humans have a tendency to rule out or dissmiss entirely what they don't understand. While I am not saying that a lightsaber is possible right now but who says it couldn't be in another 1000 years? Another thing is the adverage human only uses between 3 and 10% of the full potental of their brain, meaning that its entirely possible that someplace in our brains lies the possibility to do such acts (move objects, crush thing, shoot lightning with our thoughts), just at the present time we are either haven't reached a highenough evolutionary level or have already lost the ability to access thoses parts of our brains. I'm the last person that'll try and say that science is perfect and can't make mistakes. Everything you said is true,it's based off the information we have now. Something could very well come a long and change that at some point in time. The same thing could be said for the what we know and the way we look at light as well. My point was using science and or physics to try and explain why something is impossible in a fictional world in which a number of things go against known laws of science is not only flawed but a double standard. BTW,you're weclome for the link. I didn't want to send another PM just to say that.

So I noticed. Great thing about options though, you can still play as a purist even if someone else doesn't.

Has it been said if Disciple and Handmaiden take up one slot or two? And===Slight Spoilers=== S S S S S S S S S S S S S S Hk-50 was said to be done after P.station so even if he joins the party there,he may turn out to be a temp character.

Heh,just can't seem to stay out of these debates... There's a big technical explination on how a saber works but the general concept behind the color is:Color of the crystal=color of the blade. Dark crystal,dark blade color. Does that fit with science,not in the least. Doesn't really need to though. Keep in mind we're talking about a game and not placing something like that in movie or novel. One of the big selling point to this game is choice,just look at the tag line they're using. So in a game such as this why should someone not be allowed to use something like a black saber? I've had the whole "Black Saber Debate" a number of times both online and off. There's three main reasons I've heard in all the debates. 1)The S.D.U. It's stupid,dumb,and ugly is pry the most used excuse but it also holds least amount of water. It's subjective as hell, because you personally feel way that doesn't mean everyone does and as such is not a valid reason to deny people the right to use an option in the game. It's an option,if you don't like it don't use it. How someone plays their game should have no effect on how you play yours. I personally hate the look of yellow and orange sabers but my personal taste shouldn't take away from someone who does like how they look. 2)The Purist It would ruin the feel of things. This one is broken up into two groups. -A)The Movie Only Group. This group likes the SW movies,normally the OT only but a number like the Prequels as well. -B)The Movie/EU Group. This group likes the OT,usually dislikes the Prequels though some do enjoy them,and loves the EU. Both groups says that something like a black lightsaber would ruin the feel of game. Now with both we're right back to,it's an option and if they don't like it they don't have to use it. How someone plays their game has no effect on how they play theirs so if they don't like an option there's no need for them to use it but that's not a valid reason to deny someone the right to play their game their way. And with group B,they seem to forget that a lot of the things they love in the EU are considered by some to "ruin the feel of things". Now the Big one. 3)Science and Physics. People will try and use the laws of real life science and physics try to state that because it's against the laws IRL it's impossible in SW. However the problem is there's a large number of things inside the SW universe that go against the real life science and physics. I could name them all but I'll use the two that are big in this debate because of the role in SW and in the debate itself. A)The Force. It's Impossible according to science and physics to: -Lift objects with your mind. -Choke someone with your mind. -Blast high energy bolts from your hands. B)The Lightsaber. The weapon itself is against the laws of science and physics. So why then is it so important that something like the blade color,of a weapon that doesn't fit with science and physics laws,fit with said laws? It's a double standard,if you're going to use science and physics as a way to judge something,it needs to be applied evenly and fairly to everything. To prove it's not possible you need something from with in the SW universe that says as such,real life science and physics doesn't work because they don't apply. If they did then half of the SW universe couldn't be used because it would go against said laws. If you can suspend you belief in science when you blast lighting out of your PC's hands,why is it so hard to do so for something like this? And even if you can't,it's still an option that if don't want to use you don't have too. The important thing to remember in this situation is that it's a game that's built around choice and options. So if LA and Obsidian wanted to place something like that into a fictional setting and world,long as it's option you don't have to use it. In this fictional setting RL science doesn't apply. Only thing that really applies is how many options Obsidian/LA wanted to place in the game. My Little Disclaimer:I have no clue if something like that is in the game nor am I saying it will be. Just saying it's possible based on how much Obsidian/LA wanted to offer up and/or push things depending on how you look at it.

The Official Xbox magazine is having a hands on preview in the december issue coming out 1 december, at least that what it is saying in the november issue... Interesting...perhaps this person was telling the truth then. Would you mind telling us where you found this information? Not sure if that was too me or envida but... As I said another poster said that on a message board(Game FAQ.) Stranger things have happened so I wasn't going to call the person liar. So I was checking over here because of the number of posters who are from Australia,to see about the mag itself.

Okay this topic,for the moment is safe from spoilers. However I wanted to try and check some information. A person on another board made a rather large plot based claim about the game,which for spoiler reasons I'm not saying in here at the moment,and when i asked where he heard it from he said: I write for the xbox Magazine here in Australia, and for the issue comming out in december we have a preview of the game, due to the fact that, this mouth we were able to have a hands-on and deliver some information to the public. ...So my question is this,is the Mag out there yet? Or does anyone know of a mag coming in Dec claiming to have rather huge plot info? I tend to give people the benifit of the doubt when they say things except the person was a very new user, which doesn't mean he's not telling the truth but it wouldn't be the first time someone signed up to just to create problems. Seeing how there's a number of people from Australia that come here I thought I could check this and see about the mag.

Also true. But if they were hunted down by the Sith, that could be possible. Perhaps,again it would depend on the details around their death. Were they blown up in a ship out of the blue? Did they go down fighting? Were they defending an area/people? Was it an attack by the Jedi? Why did they do said attack? There's a hell of a lot of reasons and little things that could go into one of the character's death. Which as I said,would by my main focus. Good death=more depth. Bad death=pointless waste of a character. However what is and is not a good death is subjective. Even killing Revan would be okay with me,if done right,if had a real point and reason in the story.

I agree. However, don't automatically refute the mag either. As you said we should wait for a dev to confirm it, or we wait for the game to come out, which ever comes first. Though a lot can happen within 5 years. Very true,a lot can happen. But I think killing off characters,that if the player picked Revan LS,would other wise be alive could hurt what people think of the game. Least if they killed all of them off. I personally would be worried about how they were killed off rather then that they were killed off. If Jolee is dead from something like old age I'm going to be a little upset. However if he's dead due to some sort of large battle or important battle against a/the Sith then I wouldn't care because over all it would add to the depth the character has and gained in Knights. Same could be said for any other the other characters. A pointless death would be worse then the fact they were killed off IMO. However I have a large distrust for info from game mags. So until I see a Dev say :"Yeah they're all worm food". I'm not going to worry about it one way or the other.

Picking what path Revan went,DS or LS,would be the first step to telling the game which characters could or could not show up. If you choose Revan went DS along with if Revan was male or female and that side of things is rather easy to figure out. Going LS is a little more tricky,which could be solved by simply assuming that if Revan went LS then he/she took all the LS options when it comes to the characters. Though the assumption could be applied only to Bas and not Juhani because Bas had a much large role in the game then Juhani. The choice of Revan being DS/LS male/female will obviously play a role in the path the game takes after the conversations. And if they weren't going to take something like that into consideration,why bother with the choice at all? I'm not saying you're going to see every character but I wouldn't take what the mag said at face value. They've made mistakes before,until a Dev says other wise,I wouldn't trust the mag in that area.

But I think it all comes down to our point of view of how strong Revan was, afterall he/she is everyone's character. Which is a good thing,it makes the character personal,but I think it also creates situations like this one where people grow to really like the character and the idea that he/she wasn't the best bothers some people. Not that is a bad thing though, shows that the accomplished what they were trying to do. I cringe at the sole thought of that. I would rather you didn't mention that particular subject, the existance of midi-chlorians, or the name 'Ja-Jar Binks', if we are to keep it civil. Thank you. My point was made then about something,no matter what fans may or may not think about it, being written in I take it? I believe I finally understand what you are looking for. I think what you seek is a gauge of 'Jedi-worth', which ranks Revan at X, Yoda at Y, and Vader at Z. I don't think there is such a thing in the SW universe though. However that is not what the topic was about. I seem to have misunderstood you from the beginning. I read through the topic and saw a few posts about Revan being this or that and I never actually saw the anything in the game that said those things. Yes I was looking for something saying exactly how powerful Revan and something to judge it by that wasn't in the players control. There is something like that from an official stand point. Lucas has said that Vader is/was the strongest.Lucas decides things like that,not all the fans like it or the choices he makes but they are his too make. And anyone who knows the D20 system knows that messing with it at the core usually yields unpredictable results. The thing is Knights didn't use the d20 rules,they used a set based off or a modified version of the d20 rules. They weren't exactly the same set,and they've pry been changed again for Sith Lords. I thought it worked well in Knights and will pry do so again in this one. I think the problem with those who don't see a problem with the TSL PC being more powerful than Revan is that they're only looking at the small picture. Maybe I'm just not explaining myself well enough. Who knows. I think if people forget the name "Revan" and instead focuss on the REASONS behind the explanation, it might sink in. It's not that I don't think the PC should be more powerful than "Revan" per se, but that the PC (who just happens to be Revan) in KOTOR1 was thrust down our throats as an uber powerful Jedi, someone that comes along once in a generation. So now, if the new PC is more powerful, then that "once in a generation" feel is ruined. It also has a snowball effect because then when KOTOR3 rolls around, this new PC will be "more powerful" than the TSL PC, and so on. I think that's the part people don't seem to get. They just see this as "should the TSL PC be more powerful than Revan?" instead of the more apt question "should the PC in every subsequent game be more powerful than his predecesor?". You have a vaild point,though just like I haven't seen anything to state exactly how powerful Revan was in Knights,you more then likely won't see anything in Sith Lords that says exactly how powerful this PC is. And you'll have the players decide for themselves,much like what was done in this one,who is more powerful. And you'll end up with 100 some post topics on a message board debating the ideas. So we'll see in you SL PC Vs Knights 3 PC topic in the future?

.. But he wasn't wrong... both official endings have Revan beating Malak and both endings have this same plot element in them. In order for the game and the storyline to be complete Revan (possibly with his crew) has to go through Malak's troops and apprentices. Okay this is now my last post...*LOL* That only proves what Malak thinks,not that what Malak thinks is stone cold fact of the situation.

Sorry, but that couldn't have happened. Keep in mind that the storyline of the game is revised by LA, so if something is absurd or misfitting (an ewok slaughtering dark Jedi), it's changed until it fits the SW universe. In the SW universe, only really powerful characters can kill dark Jedi, and it takes much muscle to bring down a Sith Lord. And you wouldn't think a group of Ewoks could take down a legion of Pal's best troops either. Something seeming to be absurd doesn't mean it can't be written in. If LA wanted it,they could write it no matter what some fans did or did not think of it. But it doesn't really matter what their actual stats were; storywise, Revan killed a lot of dark Jedi and Sith apprentices aboard the SF. Since the new Sith Lords rise to fill the power vacuum left by Malak, it's only logical to assume they were weaker than Malak and (I know this is bound to draw flak) even Darth Bandy himself. Hence, we will get a new character whose power matches those challenges. Why is that what needs to be assumed? It was never stated that Sith Lords in this game are made up of people left over from Malak/Revan's rule. There were Sith out there that had nothing to do with Malak or Revan. And again,it was Stats against stats,the player was meant to win those fights. It was meant to see how well the player built their character. It was less story and much more stat driven. Well, Malak was a Jedi once and probably was well aware of the capabilities of both the SF droids and the Jedi. But following your reasoning, nothing in the game could prove how powerful Revan really was, short of Yoda appearing and claiming 'a bad muthaf*cka you are', and then running in terror. To a point it would be needed,though it would be Vandar and not Yoda. Besides I all ready said I was off on that one,but you were pry still typing. Note that I'm not implying Revan is more powerful than any other character in the SW universe. I just say, most likely, Revan will be more powerful than the TSL PC, if only because he/she has had more time to hone on his/her abilities. Which is a reasonable reason to assume he/she will be. I was looking for something inside the story that told people that Revan was untouchable,which I might have missed.I never stated that the PC in SL would be more powerful. I don't care if the PC is or is not more powerful. Again,because of the fact that stat based power is often time different from story based power,I was looking from something in the story that said exactly how powerful Revan was. If the game has a bosse's stats set to match against certain stats,and you've passed the set stats in a straight up battle you might destroy the boss,however when story starts back up you might be busted up against a wall with the Boss standing above you because story wise the boss is suppose to be stronger even though stat wise it was not. This is most likely my last post for a while. However this is a nice little debate we have going so if you want to keep it going throw something up and I'll get to it the next chance I get too.

Huggles: Good point,nice find. That leads to Revan being powerful,which I'm not saying he/she isn't. I'm looking for how powerful. That doesn't show Revan as beign untouchable,though again nice point.

Malak also told that Sith to send out all available troops and apprentices but he knew that would not stop Revan but merely slow him down, that's gotta say something. Point taken on that one,though Malak still could have been wrong.

Right. But Vader's stats were designed after the character we see in the movies, as a 'marker' from which to judge other characters' power. You need something to compare to. I'm giving you that something, it's your choice to ignore it altogether though. You know, there is no need for a player to reach the level cap in a CRPG. If it was designed in such a manner you actually reached the cap, there must be a reason. I may be wrong, but I'd say it's a storywise reason. I understand that the stats were made from what we saw in the movies but there's a still a system of balance with in the stats that is not an element inside the actual story. Vader in the PnP has to have some sort of balance,Vader as was written into the story needs no such balance. You are missing my whole point. What I meant is, if the character hadn't been Revan, the big fights wouldn't have been so big. If the PC had been an ewok the devs wouldn't have designed fights in which you kill a dozen dark Jedi, because that would have been ridiculous. You may choose to disregard as well that Revan was a mean killing machine at the end of KotOR, but the facts are there. Was he/she powerful? Without a doubt,was there anything to show he/she was untouchable? I don't know. I don't see player controled stat driven fights as a fair way to judge because if the Devs wanted too,ridiculous or not,they could have made an Ewok do it on stats alone. The Sith you face were meant to match against your stats,not the character Revan,but the stats you gave the character. That is how those fights were decided. There's one more fact to back this up. Maybe you remember Malak's comments about how he thought no Jedi could survive an attack by the SF battle droids. Well, Revan destroyed the droids too. You can argue that Malak was a self-deluded fool, but then I'm afraid no argument can change your mind. Malak saying something makes it so? Again,where in the story had Malak tested this? We have his word and nothing else. Doesn't make him wrong(or you for that matter) but I'm looking for something outside of the players control because everything with in the players control was made for the player to beat, I go back to my example where you over level your characters,kill a boss in two hits,yet story wise it was a hard difficult fight that you almost didn't live through. Story line power and game machanic/stat power are two different things a lot of the time.

Just commenting on this specific point, but while Revan's victory over Malak was a "player controlled fight", in effect it was a story-related victory as well, since the official continuity of the KOTOR saga has Revan coming out on top. So we'd have to assume this means that he's "meant" to defeat Malak and all those Jedi. The only thing the player controls is how easily and how fast he does so. True,though beating Malak isn't a surprise because it had all ready been shown with in the Story that out of the two Revan had always been the more powerful. Getting through the SF was more stat driven then story,though it did obviously have something to do with the story.

Looks mean zero once the fight starts.

It is the way of the Sith that the strong must rule, and the weak must die. Revan ruled until Malak's betrayal, so it's safe to assume that Revan was the strongest of the bunch. That alone would make him/her more powerful than all of the Jedi that followed him/her. It is also an obvious fact that Malak was scared as hell of dealing with Revan face to face, before and after the memory loss. He/she beat Malak,so he/she was stronger then he was. And the other that followed him might not have challenged him,that doesn't by default mean Revan could have beat every one of them. However because none of them felt they were strong enough to challenge him/her more then likely is a clue that they were not. But that just proves,as you said,that he/she was stronger then the group with him. It doesn't mean there were not others out there,be they Sith or Jedi that were not stonger. That is what was not said one way or the other. Malak sucked as a strategist, from what you can gather through the game. That doesn't mean he's not an extremely powerful force user. Once I saw Malak's WotC PnP stats (on the Star Forge), and believe me, he's mean, even more so than Vader himself. And yet he was effortlessly owned in the end. By guess who... Revan. Stats created for a RPG character in no way shape or form play a role on a character like Vader. Vader's stats for the PnP game don't even mean much because the stats were created for a game and in the game there is a system of balance that has to be in place for the game too work. Inside the story of SW, there are no numbered stats,or this beats this rules. Revan was strong in the Force, you have admitted that yourself. Yoda says: "my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is.", and we all know how much ass Yoda can kick if needed. Revan was able to cut down a lot of dark Jedi, Sith apprentices, and elite soldiers just to get to Malak. He smacked the sh*t out of Malak even despite Malak's exploiting of the Star Forge. I agree, any PC would have been able to do that to get the plot moving, but it's not any PC we are talking about, it's Revan. The PC is the center of an epic story, and that PC is none other than Revan. The characters epic stories develop around are called legends. That alone is what makes him/her so powerful. Where that's true,fights with in the players control are made to be won. They're made to,even if it's challenge,to be beat. That's not a fair way judge of the character's power. The PC could be an Ewok,and fights in the players control would still be won by the player when all is said and done. To fairly judge a characters power you need something from with in the story that the player has no control over. well revan did kill a hell of alot of sith on the star forge, plus many sith masters, and malak. he wasn't sith lord for nothing, and it seemed there was no jedi that was nearly as powerful. Are we talking player controled fights? Or story fights? And if story fights,where did it state Revan ever killed a Master? Jedi or Sith? Not saying your wrong,I just never saw where it was said if it did. But since we will learn Revan's fate in TSL, *shivers* we should then realize how powerful Revan really was. If he actually had to fight one of the Sith Lords and was either killed or badly injured that would tell me a lot, but if he was jumped then that doesn't say much. Could actually be a good Judge of that. Might not sit well with some fans if it shows Revan to be weaker then the Sith Lords,but did Revan ever face an actual Sith Lord? From what we know he just walked to plate,looked around and didn't see anyone,so he claimed himself/herself to be the Lord of Sith after beating Malak. And Malak never had the power Revan had.

Maybe there was something in there and I just missed it. But was there ever something that said how strong Revan actually was? From a story line stand point? The character was a great a Jedi who was an even better leader and that's how he/she was able to lead the Republic to victory. When he/she fell to the Sith that same ability to lead and the same skill as a warrior as well as the Force,along with the SF was what allowed him/her to hit the Republic the way he/she did/. But outside beating Malak for the title of Sith Lord and the strike team that landed on his ship(which a fight never actually took place),do we ever see or hear about him/her fighting another Jedi/Sith and winning? And I'm talking before the game starts,battles once the game starts need to be won to advance the story and any PC would have to do so,no matter what their supposed power. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the character wasn't a force to be taken seriously but I think a lot of this "Revan was untouchable" line of thinking has come in from bias. Which is fine,not knocking anyone. But from a story line stand point,do we know that Revan was untouchable? That he/she could have beat any Jedi/Sith he/she went up against? Far as we know,he/she never actually had to fight a Jedi Master,or another Sith Lord. Yes he gave the Jedi and the Republic a run for their money but that's because they couldn't get close to him/her. If a Jedi Master came face to face with him/her,would Revan have won? Do we know one way or the other? Or is a lot of it assumptions based off the like of the character? Which again,there's nothing wrong with. Was Revan powerful? Without a doubt,but the question is exactly how powerful was he/she? Yes he/she was in charge of the Sith but Revan beat Malak for the title,and most of the others were just Jedi that followed him. Did that ever challenge him/her? Malak wasn't exactly great at his job,so beating him doesn't make Revan the best ever. Again,not knocking Revan,I liked the character. I'm just curious why he/she is always consider some super powerful,can't be beat,Jedi/Sith. Number levels and stats I know,but they don't always apply to the story. Working your way through the SF is something but that's just a way to advance the story,any PC they put in there would do the same so the story would continue on. I'm looking for something from with in the actual story that I may have missed that states where Revan showed he was the best,one on one,against any other Jedi or Sith. Or is this idea based more on how much people have grown to like the character? Heh,*looks up*...Man I was bored.

Game mechanics don't always fit with in the story. The two are more often then not separate. A character's number level,used to help with in game battles to advance the story,don't always match with the characters level of power with in the story. Ever play a game where your characters are at a very high level,you fight a boss,kill it in two hits,then the story script starts back up the characters are huffing and puffing like they've been through a war? It doesn't always work to try and use one's game level to measure how strong they are or are not inside the realm of the story.

well, they are all gay that is the truth. Makes no difference to me,I'll give 'em a pink lightsaber and a pink robe and not only will we kick some Sith butt we'll hurt their pride while doing it because they just got their hind ends handed too them by a Jedi in pink.

Bah,fine we do know something about the characters. There's just important things we'd all like to know and do not. Better?

Nice pics. Could be a clue,could just be the art. Not sure,pry have to wait and find out. So we : Don't know their names. Don't know their class. Don't know how much if at all we'll have a say in either. Don't know for sure how gender/side play into having them in your party. Did I mention anything about having questions yet? <_< Well, we know he's blond, beyond that we know nothing. <_<