SilverSun

As far as moral and legal concerns go, there is no difference between 'aggressive defense' and aggression itself. You see some punk in the street trying to mug/rape/kill a girl, you step in and break his back. Guess who's going to jail? A)That's going to depend on where you live,will be different from state to state and country to country.. B)As a security guard who has take a class every year to review such things as use of force,I can say that would depend on a lot of different things. Such as did you tell the person too stop before or after you got involved,did you feel the person's life/your was in danger, did the you do anything to the person after you broke up the situation and there was no longer a threat,the last one is a big one. If the peson is leaving and you touch them,you're in touble. If they've been told to stop,have not and are a threat to you or someone else you have the right to defend yourself or them up to the point that the threat is removed,in which case you have to stop. Again,very thin line that can change in an instant if you're not careful. Things aren't always black and white. But you are missing the point. There are other forms of using the Force that don't involve harming others. If a Jedi chooses the aggresive one over the harmlessl one, he's giving in to the dark side. So you say,but defense of life is defense of life,and who's to say that an agrressive defense,in certain situations,is a bad thing? Again,not everything is black and white. If there's a rule,there's an exception,normally more then one. And as I said before,when ever the dark side has been talked about in a movie or the EU,what is said is anger,hate,etc. I've don't recall the word harm ever being said. Do you know of a case where the harm was used? And I'm not being a smart ass. I honestly can't think of a time when the term harm was used. An offensive action using the force is wrong for a Jedi, there are all manners of extremes, but all Jedi should see it as a very distant answer to there problems, if it can be justified at all How is something done in defense and offensive action? It's done in defense for the purpose of protecting life,that's not offensive. But you're right,we can either agree to disagree or carry on. Either way is fine by me. I've had a fun debate either way. Might not agree with you two,but I will say I've gained respect for the both of you. For whatever that's worth to you,which might not be much.

Nope. If you cause harm to others, no matter why or how, it's an attack. Even if the target of your attack deserves to be attacked, it doesn't change the nature of your action. Using the Force to confuse the attacker, paralize him, or create an illusion to trick him would be defense. Hurting him would cross the line. An attack happens first,defense is second so if someone is all ready being attacked,and you step in to defend the individual you've attacked no one. The attack has all ready taken place,your actions are in Def of the person being attacked,no matter what you use to do so. Might be an aggressive Defense,but it's still defense. All right. Let's consider you can always find some devil's advocate to justify your unjustifiable drawing upon the dark side. Unjusttifiable? Problem is we're dealing A)with a fictional world and ideas and B) A lot of it is simply subjective. You don't buy it and that's fine,wasn't really trying to change your mind. I just enjoy these kind of debates.

I'm beginning to think that no amount of examples would be enough for you. Remember that 'the Force is for defense and enlightenment, never for attack' babbling? That's what it all comes down to. As I said before,protecting someone is not an attack. If you push/blast/whatever someone who's about kill an innocent person who has no way to defend themselves you didn't attack someone,you used the Force for defense. So you say. The Force is not a law court. It doesn't accept 'mitigating circumstances', there are no intermediate positions. Attacking other beings with the Force is wrong. Not only that, those poor pigs were not in a threatening attitude, either. They were just in his way. If choking them is not DS, then nothing is. Attacking,yes,we're not talking about attacking. And the Guards were being threating,they put themselves between him and the path and made it clear they weren't letting him past without a fight. Their Job? Yes,still was meant to be a threat. He tried anything and they would fight him. So he removed the threat so he could protect his friends/family. So Force lightning some bloke who happened to be in your way, while being in perfect control of your emotions would not be DS just because you are not in anger? Please. Would depend,is this person just standing in a Cantina,not paying any attention to you at all and is just in your way? If so then yes that would be DS because the person isn't in anyway making any kind of threat towards yourself or anyone else. If anything, using the Force against others is wrong, because most beings are defenseless against that kind of attacks. Attacking a defenseless being is wrong by my book. Agreed,however defending the the defenseless by use of the Force is not the same thing as attacking the defenseless with the Force. Well we can keep this going or agree to disagree. Up to you,either way I'm having fun. But it might be time to break out one of the greatest quotes ever,movie or real life: "You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

That is your opinion. You have nothing canon to support it, while there are plenty of examples which point otherwise. You gave one exmaple,one doesn't equal plenty. You admit it yourself. Luke used a dark side power. From the moment it harms other living being, it is the DS. I'm glad you finally understand it. Please not the quotes around "Dark Side Power". I admit he used Choke, there are no dark or light powers,all in how they're used. Your point being? I never said the Force is light or dark. It depends on how it is used. Again, using it to harm others, no matter the circumstances, is DS. Where is it stated that using the Force to cause harm is out right DS? I've seen things that have said using it in Anger is DS,using it with Hate is DS,never the word "harm" is DS. Both sides "harm" the other in form or another with the Force. Yeah being chocked does make people more passive... Pry not so much the being choked as the being choked without the person lifting a finger.

I got it backwards when I brought it up earlier,in the movies it seems that he killed them as they fall against the wall and go limp. In the book he does use Force Choke on them,they fall to their Knees and he walks by them. Once he's away from them he stops using the power and they get up and think better about going after him.

I retract my statement,on killing the guards,after checking my copy of ROTJ the book he did not kill them,my mistake. However he did use the Power.

There's other matter, however. There are no examples of Jedi using the Force to harm others, no matter the circumstances, unless they are darksiders. I have provided one example to support my arguments, you have provided none. Luke,ROTJ Force Choke to Kill the guards. Say what you will about him not being trained or whatever,he still did so and he still not slip to the DS for doing so. He used a "Dark Side Power" to help save his friends,and that's not even a case where his friends were in direct danger at that moment,however if he did not get in there the chances are they would have died. However there was no anger in him when he preformed the act,he was in control of himself and his emotions. t turns out the EU is canon as far as it doesn't go against the movies. Moreover, the dark horse comics are defining the main plots of the clone wars, probably on guidelines provided by Lucasfilm. Maybe it's an EU author's idea of how the Force must be used, but as for now, it's canon. I didn't like it very much myself, but my opinion doesn't count when it comes to defining what is SW. The NJO is also cannon,and isn't there something in that series with Jacen finding the "True Meaning" of the Force? Or at least a new way of looking at it? Where the Force is neither dark nor light but is based on how a person uses it? Or something like that.

Interesting,hadn't read that.

When was it shown that Yoda set back and did nothing when he could have done something to stop it? Am I missing something,or are you talking about when he was on Dagobah? Because if that's what you're talking about,not a lot he could do,he had to stay alive so Luke and/or Leia could be trained. If he died,there was no one left to train either of them the galaxy would have been FUBARed. Not the same thing. I said sit back and watch when he/she could have stopped the attacker,in which Yoda could not,until he trained either Skywalker child.

There are degrees of darkness in dark side actions, you know. Attacking an innocent person with a lightsaber is evil. Actions like that change your nature into a soulless person, but not necessarily a puppet of the dark side (think Adm. Karath). Attacking an innocent person with the Force is an evil action performed through the dark side. That makes you evil, soulless, and a slave of the dark side. Attacking an innocent with the Force in anger, not only makes you a slave of the dark side, but also a pawn of your own emotions. In the K2 website you can read 'Your mastery of the DS is only surpassed by your animal rage'. Very enlightening on the nature of darksiders. Protecting an innocent person from an attacker and attacking an innocent with the Force is two very different things. Using the force to cause harm to living beings, be it directly through choking, lightning, or indirectly, by say, bringing the ceiling down on your enemy, is considered giving in to the dark side. A Jedi can never find an excuse to do that kind of things. In fact you will find that most Jedi masters would rather die (and yes, let others die) than use the Force with ill intent. I can see a Jedi Master perhaps not using it to protect themself from harm,but where has it ever been said a Jedi Master would sit back and let innocent people die instead of using the Force to stop the attacker? Using the Force for the protection of innocent life is not using the Force with ill intent. Where you are correct in that there are different levels of DS actions,it is still the emotions,reasons,and control behind the action that make it DS or not. Sitting back and doing nothing while innocent people die in front of you when you could have stopped it is border line DS actions. Again I have to say that because one can switch from LS to DS in the a blink of eye is the reason behind the training. The Jedi are told to push aside all their emotions because they are what the Force feeds on and an act started with good intent,meant with good intent,can be changed based on the what the Jedi is feeling when the act is carried out. Using the Force to protect another is not DS.

Pop back in here before I head off to bed. So using the Force to throw an object=okay? Using the Force on a living body=bad? You're rationalizing. It's like shooting someone and saying you didn't kill them the bullet did. You pulled the trigger,you killed them. However why you pulled the trigger would make all the difference in the world. It's a question of how the Jedi view the force and understand it. They don't want the line to be crossed and because it can be crossed in an instant is the reason for caution. If emotions weren't the main factor in falling to the DS,why any time the DS is brought up are things like anger,fear,hate,revenge brought up? The thing is however that the path to hell is littered with good intentions. You can cross that line in the blink of an eye,which is why they're taught as they are. That doesn't change that pushing someone off a cliff with the Force because they killed a loved one and pushing them off the cliff to stop them from killing a loved one are two very different actions with different motivation behind them.

I understand that it is based on the rules, and not a copy, but I do enjoy a good conversation and speculation. As do I This may or may not be my last post of the night,but I'll get to anything else directed towards me at another time.

Sorry Silver but there is no line, if you use the force in offense directly it's dark side. The fact that the force affords you the skill to wield a saber in a offensive way is not the same as drawing on the force itself to strike at your enemies. Sometimes it gets ambigous, is to throw a rock at an enemy using the rock or the force? or is disabling an enemy so as to pass by him unharmed by choking him for an instant with the force an attack? But it has been made clear as daylight that to strike at someone with force lightning is dark beyond intention. Luke's actions in ROTJ where not the actions of a refined master. With more learning and experience he would not have struck him in such a way. If you're protecting someone from being killed,or yourself it's not offense it's defense. That is where the line comes in. Def of yourself or someone else is not the same as attacking someone with it. Someone is in danger of being killed and you hit the attacker with some kind of Force power you didn't attack them. Attack would indicate that you started things off. Unharmed?Might not have shown it in the movies but in the books I believe it says he killed both guards. And when a Jedi uses the saber they're using the Force to help them control it, then they strike someone down with it they are using the Force to help guide their saber to strike them down. The Force is being used the same as if it's a power. On the rock,do you mean pick it up and throw it with your hands? With the Force? Was the Force used ti aim the rock at all? Part of the problem is games like this need the little Force tree in their balance system to make the game work. There is no such system in the SW universe from a story stand point. When ever the dark side is mentioned what is said? Anger,hate fear,etc,which are what? Emotions. It's true the Force is more then just a tool but the emotions of the user are what feed the Force. Again,why Jedi are told not to strike with anger or fear or hate in their heart/minds because the emotion will be fed the Force which can use that to change the user. If there's not DS emotion there's no DS "food" for the Force to feed off of.

You're still not taking into consideration the fundamental point of my previous posts. The mindset of an attack may be good and pure, but if that attack is made with the force -- the all-consuming, alien entity -- the attacker is changed, through no intention of his own, both in his body and essence. The tangible decay that the bodies of Darksiders undergo as the fall farther into the Darkside is evidence enough of this. The Force is needed in order to use a Saber,least for the most part which why very few non-jedi ever do. When you use your saber you are using the Force,if you strike someone down with your saber the Force played a role in that just as much as if you used the force to push them,or lighting or whatever. It's the emotion that the Force feeds off,it's the emotion that Force used to change the person,which is why the Jedi are taught nor to strike in anger,not lash out in hate or fear or Revenge because those emotions are what allow the Force to take over the Jedi and lead them down the path. If your emotions are in check,then the Force can't just wisk you away down the Dark Path,I.E. Luke and the Choke in ROTJ. You can't use the force as your weapon if you are a Jedi period. It is your ally and affords you protection enlightment and skill, but to use it to strike at another is the dark path. If you use the Force for aggression it's DS,not if you use it as a weapon because a weapon is as much Def as it Off. A weapon not only attacks but a weapon defends. Using the Force to protect life,long as you're in check and your strike is meant for Def either of yourself or someone else,is not the same as striking someone for no reason or doing so with aggression. It's a very fine line because it can turn very quickly from one to the other in an instant. You can be trying to defend someone,they get hurt and anger takes over and it's not longer about Def but revenge. But there is a line there based on the emotions of the person doing the action.

Agreed. But look at the source of the Info,OXM, How many times has a mag or article said your character has no memory? Wouldn't be the first time info has been twisted or flat out wrong.

The comment about the Crew of the Hawk could mean the crew that had the ship at the start of Sith Lords and not the crew from Knights. There's a screen of Kreia laying down in what seems to be the Hawk with the caption that The crew of the Hawk are all dead or dieing. Which is what that could be talking about seeing how Kreia was not a member of the original crew.

I understand that,but if the person's reason behind using the Force in such a way that someone dies is the protection of life,where's the negative reinforcement come in? It's kind of like the difference between swinging first in a fight and hitting someone who attacks you. If someone is attacking you/an innocent and the Force is used to stop that,it's not an attack it's not an aggressive move,it's the response to an aggressive move. Now if the attack is stopped and you're still blasting lighting(just as an example) into someone who's on the ground and not a threat then a line has been crossed. Not to mention the Force feeds off anger,so lashing out with a Saber might not be as a big of a risk as doing so with the Force,but it is still a threat. In the end the emotion and reasoning behind the action count for a lot.

True,but the reasons why still come into play. Lashing out in anger with Force Lighting or lashing out in anger with your saber is still lashing out in anger and it's the anger,not the saber nor the force that will lead to the DS. Using your saber to defend your life or someone elses and using the Force to do the same might still end with someone's death but death and pain were not the reason for the use of your saber or the Force,the protection of life was.

No,some are up,some are down but you can't change it.

DSers enjoy the pain and death they cause,that's part of why they cause it. LSers also cause pain and death but don't do so for the joy of pain and death. Which is part of why I think it's more how and why something is done more then what is done. If Jedi were around IRL there'd be a huge mess because unlike SW were the good guys and bad guys are so easily seen,things in the real world aren't so black and white.

The rules of the game are only based off the D20,not an exact copy but I see your reasoning if you're basing it off that. Personally as I said before,I think it's how and why but for purpose of the game it's not like lighting which part of the reason behind using it is the pain it causes. Jedi kill and hurt people with Sabers, I don't see a difference between that and hitting them with a UFO.

I would also like to see the ability to levitate objects (a neutral power), which could be incorporated into various puzzles. And for Darkside people, attacks with levitated objects as a darkside power. Why would that be considered dark? Even in an attack that seems more neutral then anything. Could be used for Def just as much as an out right attack. Being pushed into a corner,grab and object and use it hit the person/group so you can remove yourself from a tight situation. Not like Jedi as so passive that they'd allow themselves to be cornered without a fight.

Wouldn't mind seeing an absorption power.

I wonder however, about those questions. If Im not mistaken the exile has been gone+cryofrozen since the beginning of the mandalorian wars. How can she/he then know anything about the fate of Revan? Gone yes,crofrozen? I don't see that being the case. We also don't know how long the person has been gone or what they've been doing. Might have been exiled after the War with the Mandalorians but sometime after Revan and Malak disappeared and came back to rage their own little war.

Now I'm going to have to go back and watch that scene in slow Mo and watch for a little screen coming up that says:Dark Side Points Gained. I don't know if it was unwarranted though. I know the Force can have an contorl of the weak minded,but can it do so over a moronic Pig? He obvioulsy had to do it.