eubatham

I'll post here what I've written somewhere else too, concerning the subject. "Hey, at least you can finish the game with them", high praise for a game that's being completed with one class. The Paladin is one of the weakest classes, yeah. They're weaker tanks than fighters and if the Paladin isn't a player character, they won't get "Faith and Conviction". Meaning that they're almost no better than a Barbarian or Monk when it comes to tanking. It's not that you can't finish the game with your Paladin as a main tank, but a Fighter will be much, much easier when it comes to control (stuns, pulls), defenses (although a Paladin might have slighter higher saves as long as a fighter doesn't use "Vigorous Defense") and keeping enemies stuck to them (he'll always keep 2 more targets engaged). Items can help out later on but fighters can use the same items, so you're really always walking in the shadow of a fighter. Ah, but Paladins bring support! True, but it's fairly weak support in general? Take the aura's; tiny, tiny range. Plus many of the benefits that they provide don't stack with other similar effects from other spells from other classes (which often give one or two bonuses per spell). "But they're always on, instead of having to cast them every time!", you might say. And you're right, but you won't really run into heavy fight after heavy fight until the end of the game, when other casters have a ton of spells per rest and their level 1-2 spells can be used per encounter. Then you have the problem that other supportive abilities are single target, like Liberating Exhortation, in a game where negative effects are often applied through AoE fields. It's made even worse by the fact that if you have a front-line Paladin you'll (probably) have put little into Dexterity and you're wearing heavy armor, so you have very few actions. So you need to keep up with AoE debuffs being spammed everywhere with one or two single target abilities (per fight/rest). To make it even worse, is that other classes can do the same thing (apply most of the same debuffs and buffs) in an AoE field with other benefits attached to it. And no, their duration isn't that much shorter than those of the Paladin. The only real useful and unique thing a Paladin brings, is their resurrection spell. But it is very, very limited in its usefulness (especially for low endurance characters, that can't survive the reduction in endurance after a short while). To finish it off, a Paladin can make their Flames of Devotion extremely potent. Making it deal fairly large damage and/or give strong buffs. However as spellcasters start out with a meager 2/rest spells at level 1 and end up with 8/encounter and 16/rest, a Paladin heavily specializing into Flames of Devotion (or to minor extent Lay on Hands) at level 12 is still only able to use 2 per encounter. This alone is completely and utterly ridiculous. Phew, so there you have it. "But the Paladin is a hybrid, it can do all those things at the same time!", no, other classes are hybrids too and can do the same things a Paladin can. The only thing where a Paladin has a slight edge over the other classes, is tanking (but again, even this is rendered moot when the Paladin isn't a player character). "But there are a million different combinations, people can't figure it out since the sky is the ceiling when it comes to builds!", well... no. You can forget that way of thinking considering that class abilities are quite limited and well documented. Many builds are possible, especially with the amount of 'general' traits, but each class is limited to its (well know) potential. The best way to play a Paladin at the moment is to use him or her as an off-tank to buff the main tank. But even then, the only reason for really bringing a Paladin instead of another fighter is because you want a Paladin in your group. Which is a shame, because it's one of the most fun classes to roleplay in the game. So you can have a Paladin in your group and finish the game just fine (again, the game is being solo'd) but when you need to resort to this fact, along with 'hey, you have 5 other partymembers to make up for him', you can't really call it an alright class. Are they beyond hope? No, they aren't. A few easy fixes would bring up their usability and build variety up to par with other classes. For example, make aura's party wide. Their current range is ridiculously small (even with 18 INT) and their buffs are minor (but still nice when no other effect from another class is active). Make Flames of Devotion uses/encounter increase by 1 every 2 levels, starting at level 1->3->5->7->9->11 (so at level 12 you'd have 6 uses). Lay on hands can use a similar treatment, although 2 or 3 charges is sufficient by level 12. Faith and Conviction needs to be given to none player character Paladins. They are seriously hurt by not having access to such a core ability. Yes, it means you need to keep in mind that you have a Paladin in your group when it comes to roleplaying, but I consider that a good thing. Spells like Liberating Exhortation are currently utter crap, especially considering that priests have access to an AoE versions of some of these. It just doesn't work in its current version (again, especially since many debuffs are AoE) and should either also become an AoE effect or be reworked. Others, like example Sworn Enemy, could do with a 1/encounter instead of 3/rest. Finally, considering that out of the 5 possible class talents it would mean dedicating 3 out of those 5 to it, would it really be THAT overpowered to allow Paladin "Zealous Aura's" to stack? Keep in mind that the earliest a full "auradin" would be active is at level 7, with no other chosen talents (apart from the level 1 talents). "But this would make Paladins powerful! You can't do that!", well that's the point. To make Paladins feel powerful, since other classes feel really powerful and potent at level 12. When other classes gain in levels, you basically go from "oh" to "wow" to "holy crap". However, with the Paladin it's currently "meh" from level 1 to 12.

From the PotD thread (and the person that completed the run); Thank you very much! And yes this is also what i think. At least it means that it's doable for all the Melee classes. Secondly, calm down and use paragraphs.

You're talking about an RPG, to be even more precise an RPG that's a callback to old CRPG's, that (like almost every other RPG) has stats (and a great many factors depending on these stats) and not some adventure game or visual novel. You could say that stats are even more detrimental in this game than in Diablo 3, due to how much more potent each stat point is and how much more sparse they are. Considering your statement, you make it seem clear that you have no interest in discussing or debating class balance. So why do you even bother to enter a topic that concerns class balance in the first place? And why would you do this? At least give a reason why you'd take a Paladin 'in a heartbeat' over a Priest or Druid? You'd pick a class who's support pales (and is rendered moot) in comparison to either of those classes to do exactly what? Fill a role in a group that a fighter will perform noticeably better (or at least argue why it's not better than a 2nd fighter)? Please, either retire from the thread or at least stop trolling.

Without changing all the other armors (though I'd prefer if the entire armor system got a 2nd look), another possible solution would be to simply make brigandine an alternative to plate armor. Currently Full Plate 12 DR 15 Pierce 15 Slash 6 Shock Brigandine 10 DR 13 Crush 8 Corrode Alternatively Full Plate 12 DR 15 Pierce 15 Slash 6 Shock Brigandine 12 DR 15 Crush 15 Freeze 6 Corrode Some might argue that Full Plate should be better causes it's harder to find, but frankly, it isn't. At level 4 (2 hours at most into the game I guess?) you can have a full party equipped with Full Plate without much issue or cost.

Paladin is a worse tank than a Fighter. All a Paladin has is slightly more reflex/will/fort for less deflection, half of the engagement (at best), less regeneration and less otherwise obtainable mitigation. Not to mention less battlefield control (knockbacks, positioning tools). And that's if the Paladin is the main character. None-PC (Player Character) Paladin's do not benefit from Faith and Conviction, which means that they're just as good of a tank as a Barbarian is. When it comes to support, the Paladin pales in comparison to classes like the Priest, Druid, Wizard or Chanter. Their most useful ability is Reviving Exhortation, which resurrects an ally. Other abilities, like their aura's, have a pathetic range (even when dumping everything in Int) while others, like Liberating Exhortation, are a terribly weak imitation of a different class's spell to the point where they are useless. It feels like a class that was developed in the early stages of development and wasn't given a second pass later on during development, while other classes were. That, along with that some its abilities feel more fit for other RPG systems. Liberating Exhortation would, for example, be a fine spell if it was something like "at will" and could be used instantly without loss of an action. However, with the current implementation it means you need to waste a precious action as (probably) a heavy armor user to cast a single target condition removal in a game where most debuffs are applied in AoE fields. Then you have Flames of Devotion. I've said it in other threads already, but you can build an entire Paladin around improving this ability. Yet you'll never get more than the initial 2/encounter charges, even at level 12 (the maximum level). Ect, ... . They are "okay" off-tanks (mainly to buff the fighter tank) and great RP characters, but not much else compared to other classes. And you can even scratch "half-decent tank" off the list when they're not the PC character. When it comes down to it, they're an alround weak class with one or two mediorce abilities. Many people are justifiably wondering what place a Paladin has in most parties, especially when it comes to PoTD. Its greatest feat of strength (according to many people that defend the current state of the Paladin class) seems to be that you can finish the game with having one in your party. Not high praise, considering that some people are finishing the game with one party member.

All this monk talk is making my Paladin quite jealous.

Oh, right, sorry I was talking about the Flames of Devotion buff.

Outside being able to hold 2 more monsters down than any other class, I am having a hard time seeing why fighter is so much better at tanking? Is 15 deflection really such a deal breaker? Because that (and 10 on all other defences) is what you're losing as a barbarian compared to a fighter. And the constant regen, which starts to be better in fights that last a lot longer than 30 seconds. I'd love to see some numbers that demonstrate how much better 15 deflection is on a tank with say... 120~ deflection range (with fighter getting 135~). Fighters have access to much more passive deflection, target engagement and defense bonuses. On top of that, they can instantly regain endurance when knocked out (though this only comes into play at level 12), receive less crits and have have constant regeneration. I've said it several times now, but there's really no equal to the fighter when it comes to tanking. The closest 2nd are Paladins, but even they pale in comparison to the abilities of a Fighter. If you want a tank, get a Fighter.

Shield Bearer's bonuses only affect allies, not the Paladin himself. So don't worry, they're not a better tank in any shape or form.

I'd also suggest getting the 15% increased damage when using a 2-handed weapon. Scion of Flame is definitely a superior talent to the corrode talent, considering that it multiplies all fire damage. That is, if you enchant your weapon with burning leash (which you should!) to deal +25% burn damage each hit. Also, keep in mind that Remember Rakhan's corrode damage is additional damage and not multiplicative, as with most things in PoE. This means that +25% corrode damage means that Flames of Devotion will deal +50% burn damage and +25% corrode damage, resulting in +75% overall extra damage. They decided to go for most modifiers to be additive instead of multiplicative because additive is easier to balance. Also, note that certain tooltips are out of date. Flames of devotion was changed just before release to be 2/encounter instead of 1/encounter, while its damage was halved from +100% to +50% burn damage. Abilities like Intense Flames and Remember Rakhan, were also reduced by half. So Intense Flames adds +25% burn damage (so a total of +75%(+50% +25%)) and Remember Rakhan and additional +25% corrode, and not 50% for each talents. So Flames of Devotion would hit for +50% + 25% + 25% (total +100%) if you pick up both traits. With Scion of Flame instead of Remember Rakhan, it would be (+50% +25%) * 1.2 = +90% overall damage added from Flames of Devotion. Keep in mind though, that a weapon enchanted with Burning Leash (an easy to get enchant) adds another +25% burn damage (or +30% with Scion) every hit. edit: Welp, guess you can forget about Scion of Flame then!

It's disheartening that Paladins are still stuck with the base 2/encounter Flames of Devotion even at level 12. A solution would be that Paladins get 1-2 more charges from increasing their order's alignment. Maybe even give players a choice at level 1 to either add more charges to Flames of Devotion or improve Faith and Conviction through behavior. Another possible solution would be for Intense Flames and the order specific Flame of Devotion improvement talent to add 1 charge each. But there are also other issues that should be looked at when it comes to Paladins, in all honesty. For example the range of aura's is pathetic, even with 18 int they barely cover melee range. They should be base 4.5 meters base or something close to that. There are many more issues similar to that, making the Paladin seem not too hot when directly compared to other classes at the moment. But maybe we should create a separate thread to go into detail?

The main reason why people say Con isn't that great, is because most people usually play with a dedicated tank in their party. This tank will keep the majority of the attention focused on him or herself, meaning that other partymembers will hardly ever get hit. So a logical tactic is to equip your tank with a lot of Con in order to survive the large amounts of damage they'll take. However, other characters (even offtanks) won't need their high base HP in order to survive whatever other damage they might be exposed to. So lowering Con to 8 for offtanks or 3 for damage dealers, and then spending them in other stats isn't that weird of a tactic.

I don't think they're all that much cheaper to develop. The big difference is in the distribution costs. Back when you had to manufacture physical copies of a game and it added huge overhead to every game no matter the development costs. They are much cheaper to develop. The amount of artists alone, and the cost associated with them, required to make a full fledged and detailed 3D world is absurd. Where do you think a game like GTA 5 invests its 100 million dollar budget? Design?

Obsidian will need a far, far larger budget for that. And for what? The 2D works just fine and doesn't get in the way of gameplay.

It really depends on what you want to do with your Paladin. My 2 cents; Might: Good if you want to make your Paladin more of a damage dealer. Considering how Paladins work, I strongly suggest this. Con: Average. It's useful if you're the main tank, since you'll be tanking multiple enemies at the same time. Fighters have far better defenses, regeneration and more ways to keep enemies pinned to them, so they are usually the main tank. This means that as a Paladin you'll at most be dealing with one enemy at a time, resulting in 8 con being more than enough to survive the few hits you'll need to take. You'll have a massive amount of HP regardless. Dex: Average, but not needed for a more damage oriented Paladin. If you really want to go for full damage dealer, raise it to 12 or so, but I wouldn't drop below 10. Per: Good for defenses and dialogue options. If you're going for a more defensive offtank, put more than 14 points in here. If you're going for damage, I'd make up my mind to go for Per or Res to boost to 16 and dump the remaining points in the other one. Int: Weak. Aura's have a really, really small radius and require a significant investment in Int before the increase is really noticeable. Most other Paladin abilities affect only one target, so the increase in AoE radius is wasted on other abilities too. The duration increase to buffs from Int can be nice, but considering that a Paladin won't be spamming abilities all the time, I'd also consider it wasted. So keep int at 10, because you certainly don't want to hurt your already tiny aura range, and don't bother with it further. Res: Same as Per, really. It's a good stat for being more tanky and dialogue options. For tanking, boost both to +14 at least. For dealing damage, boost your choice between Res or Per along with your offensive abilities and dump whatever remaining points in the other.

For an offtank, pretty much any class you put in a Full Plate should be fine in all honesty. Just grab a few points in resolve or perception and pump up might. You can safely drop Con to 8, even on classes with high base health, since you won't be (nor can you) keeping multiple enemies on you.

Fighter, Priest and Cipher are definitely the most powerful classes. These carry a group and if you don't use them, you'll be making it a lot harder on yourself. After that, I'd say you have classes like the Rogue, Ranger, Wizard (although later on they become really good), Chanter and Druid. These classes are pretty alright and nice to have, but won't have a large impact if you swap them out between each other. They all have really good damage, support or a combination of both. Following those are the Barbarian and Monk. You'll be putting more strain on yourself if you want to play these classes (far more micromanaging), but it's certainly doable. Still, it's far easier to just use any of the above classes. On the last spot I'd place the Paladin, sadly just about any class can replace the Paladin and do it better. The higher level they get, the more 'meh' they become. They are basically a weak fighter combined with an extremely weak priest. The most common brought up defense when it comes to Paladins is, "I managed to finish the game with a Paladin in my group". That's not really a gauge to measure how good a class is though, especially not when people are finishing the game with just one or two party members. There is no good reason to bring a Paladin to a group, apart from simply wanting a Paladin in your group. To quote myself on Paladins;

Paladins are lackluster. They lack any and all focus, I say this as someone that finished the game on Hard difficulty with a PC that was a Paladin. They're worthless tanks compared to fighters, but so is anyone else really. Fighters have far more defenses, more engagement and better endurance recovery (in more than one way). A Paladin is only on equal footing when it comes to an initial deflection bonus and is far more of use to assist other tanks. This is only reinforced due to the fact that some of the powerful defensive abilities a Paladin possesses only affect his allies and not the Paladin himself. Damage wise they're alright for short fights and when you can rest occasionally (to regain Sworn Enemy), but they quickly run out of gas during long fights. Where other classes gain more tricks in their bags to use for long fights, we're still stuck with the initial 2/encounter Flames of Devotion at level 12. This, despite being able to heavily specialize and improve this ability along the way. Then there's support. In this category Paladins also tend to fall short. The range of aura's is tiny and requires a hefty investment in intellect to even properly cover allies in melee. Boots of Zealous command are almost mandatory for any Paladin to take, simply to make aura's worthwhile for anyone but the Paladin and the people almost literally hugging him. The other supportive abilities that Paladins are able to obtain are decent, especially the ones later on, but a Priest basically brings the same utility and much, much more. Once you've tried out the other classes, the Paladin just feels so lackluster. Another way to gauge their shortcomings is that during my playthrough(s), I never felt "next time I level up my Paladin, it'll make a big difference for the group" while with other classes like fighters, ciphers, wizard (later on) and priests I felt the opposite. They're alright offtanks, but the same can be said about most classes when you stick them in plate armor along with a bit of perception or resolve. At the moment I would say that the only real reason to get a Paladin in your party, is if you simply want a Paladin in your party.

Maybe on easy, on higher difficulties this certainly isn't the case.

I'm also having this issue, the cursor cage is removed after an in-game cut scene or certain conversations. I've found that a quick way to re-enable the cursor cage is by alt+tabbing in and out of the game, instead of going into the option menu every time.