Jediphile

Kreia: "It travels with you, like an echo through the force..." Exile: "WILL YOU SHUT UP ABOUT THOSE STUPID ECHOES, YOU ANNOYING CRONE!!!"

Thank you. And yes, it's highly speculative, but I like it because I think it carries lots of interesting potential with for a KotOR3. Glad you liked it. Well, to take this back to the subject, I think the above is tied to the reason why an evil exile is standing next to an evil Revan in the tomb vision on Korriban. If my speculation is accurate, then it could be a hint of things to come. But that's even more speculative.

Well, I'm sort of glad the topic hasn't been closed, but at the same time, I'm wondering if the reason we're no longer posting on topic is that it has run its course. I began it because I felt that d20 is a very mediocre system that hurt games like KotOR that are based it. Seems that most people actually agree with me, though it is naturally true that a good GM can make any system work, no matter how flawed and hopeless it is. Heck, I could probably make a d20/3e campaign work myself, if I had an inclination to - I made 2e work, after all, in spite of my players having all tried much better systems, and I take the fact that they stick around in spite of marriage, children, job, and other role-playing-interrupting annoyances as a pretty pad on my shoulder. Few people, if any, have argued that d20 is a good system. Those who have defended it has mostly done it on the basis that it's good enough for what it does or that its simplicity and fixed archetypes and game mechanics are valuable because they can be picked up by anyone in an instant. Where I have disagreed most with the defenders of d20 is with the inferred idea that skill-based systems without fixed classes and experience levels cannot be easily accessible and enjoyable to new players. I find the opposite to be the case. If the GM asks a new player, "What sort of character do you want to play?", then isn't it better if the player can immediately sit down and build the character right from his imagination than hitting against rigid rules that dictate which archetypes he may choose between?

Where? I've played through the game several times, and I've never noticed anything like that. In fact, Neo hardly ever appears in the game - I think we see him three times in all (standing behind Morpheus during the Captains' meeting, when he flies in to save Morpheus and the keymaker in the freeway chase scene, and when the crews of the Nebuchanezzar, Logos, and Hammer meet to discuss their plan of attack to give Neo his window to open the door). He doesn't ever even speak in the game (unless you count the sampled voice in the hacking sequence). Yes, but I thought the spoon had far more significance than that. Otherwise there seems to be little point in having the scene in there at all. The Neo-Smith fight seem was pretty disappoiting. We'd already seen Neo against a single Smith in the first movie, and Neo against multiple Smiths in the second, so returning to Neo against a single Smith was a letdown, particularly with all those other Smiths just standing around peeking - it defeating Neo was really so important, you'd have thought they'd do something besides watching with their fingers up their nose or eating popcorn or whatever... I wanted to see Neo and Smith throw buildings at each other and tear cities to shreds, since putting it on that scale would be the only way to properly reflect the significance of their battle. But...

My problem with Revolutions was that it spent most of its time denying or ignoring the aspects that were revealed at the end of Reloaded. For instance, how can Neo disable the sentinels in the real world? The oracle gives a very cryptic answer - because his power stretches all the way back from "this world" to the machine world. Now note that "this world" would seem to be mean the Matrix, since that is where she exists. So Neo would have power than reaches from the Matrix to the machine world, yet he uses it in the real world? How can he do that? And why did usage of that power bring him to the train station? There is a lot of mystery going on, and he never explains any of it to his friends. That doesn't preclude an explanation, but while I can accept his reasons for not telling his friends, the movie suffers because it is not revealed to us. There are several clues scattered over Reloaded, that are more siginificant that it might seem. For example: The Architect tells him that Trinity will die, and that he can't stop it. She does indeed die, just not in Reloaded as we might have thought. The Architect reveals that Neo is not the first incarnation of "the One" and that Zion has been destroyed several times before. Neo accepts that, and yet how that all adds up is never dealt with Revolutions. As Neo leaves Zion in Reloaded, a boy has left him a horribly bent spoon with the comment that he knows what it means. This is an obvious reference back to the first film, where a boy (the same boy?) tells Neo that he just needs to realize the truth in order to bend the spoon, because then he will realize that it is not the spoon that bends, but rather himself. And the truth is "there is no spoon!" What's the significance of that scene in Revolutions? The elders of Zion show a lot of faith in Neo and Morpheus over the objections of Commander Locke and let them make decisions that seem strategically unsound, if Zion is to be saved from the burrowing machines. Why? Councilmember Hamann (sp?) comes to Neo and they talk. This leads to a scene, where the councilmember concludes that "we need machines, the machines need us". What does that scene try to tell us? All of this was very interesting, and there are answers to them. I speculated like Hell over them, after I saw Reloaded, and I went to see Revolutions to see if I had guessed right. Only Revolutions refused to give answers, and that is rather disappointing. Doesn't make it a bad film per se - as EnderWiggin says, the battle for Zion is incredible, as is the Hammer's flight back there, but plotwise the whole thing is a confusing mess that refuses to unveil its secrets. Therefore Revolutions could function only as an acition-flick, where Reloaded had depth, mystery and philosophical conundrums.

Well, do I win the "most wierd" prize if I say that I thought Reloaded was the best Matrix movie? All the action and effects aside, it opened entirely new potential perspectives in the Matrix universe and really made me think about what was going on - it was filled with clues that pointed in all different directions, and it played with possibilities of the mind far more than the original movie. And it functioned on several levels as well, which is more than can be said for the two other movies. It lifted the veil for some truly mind-boggling possibilities towards the end, yet Revolutions sadly refused to build on that and instead used most of its time on avoiding them. A shame...

Sorry, I meant the movies. Though "Matrix Revolutions" makes the trilogy hated, I still think there is lots and lots of RPG potential in there. I've been toying with the idea for a campaign, since I already have the plot ready. I would begin before the first movie and eventually move beyond the last movie, explaining all the nonsense and ties up the loose ends. That could be fun. At least, it is my experience that when I have the idea for a campaign or adventure, then it usually turns out pretty well. I did a Star Trek TNG/DS9 plot I had thought up a few years ago as an adventure, and despite their initial skeptism, the players ended up loving how it all turned out, so I have a good deal of confidence in my plots...

Well, the only thing I mentioned from the EU was Luke's fate in "Dark Empire" and Ulic's in the Tales of the Jedi comic books. Ulic's fate is mentioned as a warning in "Dark Empire", so the connection is obvious. Even if you don't like those, it is difficult to separate them from KotOR, since Ulic was Exar Kun's apprentice and so a major power during the Sith War that lies on some 40-50 years before KotOR1, and which is frequently referred to in both games. I'll be content to ignore "Dark Empire", since it's set so far in the future (compared to KotOR). Ulic is more difficult to ignore, however, because his history is still so recent and fresh in KotOR... But they didn't repress their choice. Repression is, according to dictionary.com, "The unconscious exclusion of painful impulses, desires, or fears from the conscious mind." That is not the case here, since the council made the choice consciously. They may have felt guilt, remorse and regret about it, but even so, they knew full well what the cost would be. But they feared the alternative more, and so they chose the way they did. We could argue that they were wrong about their choice, but not that they were in denial about their choice. Seeing as how things turned, their fears were confirmed, as the jedi that fought did indeed fall the dark side as they had predicted. I don't think you can sit the position the council did and care about the suffering of every innocent person there is. I imagine it would be akin to doctors, who avoid emotional attachments to patients, because it otherwise becomes too painful when they suffer. The same would be true for strategists, who must often sacrifice soldiers to win battles. History has several examples of wars, where some people were sacrificed, so that more could live. It is no doubt a hard choice, but it is also naive to think that you can save everybody. There are times when trying to do so costs too much, because you will only lose people in addition to those that are already lost. The council felt that this was the case here. Whether they were right or not is a different matter. Well, now you bring me to reveal the conclusion or rather speculation that my observations and assumptions have brought me to. As I see it, there are many lose ends in the story, that have not been tied up yet. And no, I'm not talking about the cut content (unless some of it touches on this subject, but I have not heard anything to that effect). My point is that the Exile's story is not quite over yet. As others have said, KotOR2 has an open "to be continued" sort of ending, and even with all the stuff that was cut, it seems that it was always meant to be so. They built toward the mystery of Revan for an entire game, but didn't reach a conclusion? And the Exile ends up also going to the unknown regions alone, as Revan did? And the Exile's obvious connection to Nihilus is never fully revealed? We could go on and on about loose ends and unanswered questions, but the point is that KotOR2 was written with the intent of a sequel, at least as far as I can tell. So yes, there is stuff we don't know yet, and what really happened between Nihilus and the Exile is one of them. I speculate that Nihilus was indeed 'reconnected' with the Exile when he vaporized in that red haze (or whatever it was), but the Exile (and so the player) still remained unaware of this. He was, after all, completely unaware of the force wound and it's effects, so it is not a big stretch IMHO that he would not realize all the consequences of it, Nihilus being one. The Exile does seem to know subconsciously. It really struck me as odd that Visas, not the Exile, took Nihilus' mask, but the Exile then asked for it, but never looked at Nihilius with his own eyes. Perhaps he subconsciously knew that there was something there, that he would not like seeing. He lets Visas look at Nihilus and then asks her what she saw, but then she is blind in the common sense, and what she sees is therefore a metaphor subject to interpretation. Her answer is interesting: "A man, nothing more. Malachor V. I saw a graveyard world, surrounded by a fleet of dead ships. I felt it through him... as I feel it through you". She doesn't know his face, but she can see his past all the way back to Malachor V, and yet the Exile doesn't see for himself? Perhaps it was someone that he knew, when they were both there, and he can't be bothered to check? Odd... Maybe the Exile knew subconsciously what he would see and chose to flee from it. He did the same on Malachor V during the Mandalorian Wars, after all. And to face Nihilus would therefore be to face the dark side of himself that he rejected so long ago. He was not prepared to do that. But I don't think he can escape that fate. Unknowingly, he carried Nihilus with him, and that is why Nihilus dissolved. Note also how the Exile's connection with Kreia has conveniently vanished, once he reaches Malachor V. I assume that is because reconnecting with Nihilus has not only healed the force wound, but also cut the bond with Kreia. But either way, the Exile remains blissfully oblivious to all this, and therefore so does the player. I suspect it was to be a basis for revelation in KotOR3, and perhaps it still is.

Continued from my last post above... Yes, except the examples you cite all indicate conscience and morality. Repression is what happens when we deny or ignore our choices or experiences. An evil person wouldn't care how many were killed or that he let die so that he could live, though. So either way, this does not suggest a repression of the dark side to me. The council may have felt guilt and regret at what happened, but they didn't just refuse to get involved. Bastila mentions in KotOR1 that they would eventually have gotten involved and that Revan and Malak wouldn't give them the time they needed to prepare, since people were dying on the outer rim. In some way you could say this is like Luke rushing off to confront Vader before he is ready to fight the battle. Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to wait, but his friends were dying. Obi-Wan says, "Patience!" and Luke, "And sacrifice Han and Leia?". Yoda replies, "If you honour what they fought for, yes!" Note the significance that are not telling Luke that he shouldn't fight Vader at all - they want and *need* him to fight Vader - they just don't want him to fight that battle so soon, because they know he's not ready for it yet. The situation here is similar (less personal, but involving more people). The council's choice was the same as that of Obi-Wan and Yoda. Revan and Malak made the same choice as Luke. As as we learned, Luke's choice can scarcely have been called the right one, though it might seem so at the first glance - Luke nearly fell to the dark side because of his choice, and consequences of that would have been far worse for the galaxy than the loss of his friends. The council of Revan's age realized that fighting the Mandalorians so soon would have cost the same, if not more, and so they adviced patience. Revan and Malak would not accept that and so split the jedi on the issue. Revan may have done so because he realized the same greater threat that the council did (the true Sith), but he also knew that his strategic plan to fight the true Sith through sacrifice of jedi would never have been approved by the council. Guilt, yes. Doubt, probably. Repression, I don't think so, since it was a conscious choice. You sure you haven't been reading my KotOR3 suggestion? Seriously, I suggested something along those lines during my KotOR3 plot some time ago. It should still be in one of the earlier parts of that topic on the Obsidian General board somwhere. I do not see the Exile and Nihilus as equal. Nihilus is just a small part. He's is like an arm or leg infected with gangrene, which the Exile cuts off to save himself. This leaves a terrible wound (force wound), but the Exile can live on just fine, though he remains wounded by having lost the use of his limb, which in this case means being cut off from the force. It isn't a physical thing like an arm, however, but an emotional part of himself that he has thrown away, or rather his own dark side. That dark side is strong enough to survive if only for a time, but it continues to exist by animating a body as a host for it and then draining the lifeforce of jedi, since it has none of its own, as it's just a shell with nothing real underneath. Hence Nihilus ("Nihil" - latin for "nothingness"). And he must continue to consume jedi or die, which is the "hunger" than Kreia talks about. He cannot 'suck' the Exile, however, because that is his true self, and attempts to "suck" the Exile therefore has the opposite effect - it reconnects them (draining him into the Exile instead), but destroys the phantom that is Nihilus in the process. He stopped in time to cease his existence, but was then cut down by lightsabers instead. And instead of just dying, he was mysteriously vaporized, which is not common for a Sith. Why? Reconnection to his true self. Yeah, until the devs tell us what they really planned, it's anyone's guess, I suppose...

Note: I split this post in two since it became rather long. Sorry. Well, I se you're in a truculent mood. I wasn't insulted, I was re-iterating because you completely ignored my second point, and dismissed the first with insufficient care, methinks. I didn't take it personally, I merely thought you had erroneously skimmed over my points in your hurry to make a response. Still, be offended if it helps you deal with opposition, it makes no difference to me. " <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Me? If I had been offended, I would not have written the above - I would have written something much more inflamatory. I only wrote that because you wrote in your last post before that: That seems to take the discussion beyond the topic to me. But no matter - I'm going to be arguing with you over who thew the first stone - I'd much rather just be the one to stop throwing them. We can all think whatever we want about it, but if we're to accomplish anything with this discussion, then we have to look beyond what we each tend to think, since that is often tied to what we want and so far beyond any objective obsersavation. I quote the game to support my position in order to establish that it is based on what the story tells us happened and not just what I preferred to have happened. " First, and I probably confused the issue here myself, Luke didn't actually do it. Indeed it was Leia who brought him back to the light side by forcing the issue while extending a hand. Without her help, Luke would have belonged to the dark side for good. Or as he says towards the end of Dark Empire, "One jedi cannot conquer the dark side alone..." This was Ulic's mistake, too, btw. Note that both stories were written by the same author. Revan made same mistake that Ulic did - he challenged the dark side alone. But the jedi are not solitary - they always rely on each other, and probably because they know the individual is flawed and makes mistakes. Revan couldn't escape that simple truth either and so he fell. And he did more than battle the Mandalorians and hunt the Starforge. KotOR2 may have established that it was done to prepare for the greater threat of the true Sith, but even so, Revan did 'clean house' by letting lightsided jedi die on Malachor V and having the rest (or almost the rest - I'll get to that later) fall to the dark side under his command. Both of these are pretty terrible things to do. And though we may suspect that Revan initially looked for the Starforge to have a weapon against the true Sith, that is not what happened. Instead he lied to the Rakatan priests, who wanted the weapon shut down, and instead used it to create a fleet that he then promptly invaded the Republic with. He also created the HK-50 units and set them free to infect the galaxy. Maybe his choices had made him fall further than he guessed, maybe he miscalculated the Starforge's ties to the dark side and the effect that would have on him, or maybe he, as Kreia suggests, knowingly sacrificed himself for the greater good. I tend to think the latter, but then that's a personal preference, even if it is one proposed by the game. In any event, Revan fell to the dark side, totally and completely. I really cannot see it any other way. When he was captured by Bastila, however, the council changed his memories. Or as Kreia puts it, they stripped away the dark surface and allowed what was underneath to grow again. Whether that was a thing for good or evil is a choice the player makes in KotOR1. I always saw Revan as basically good, but that's just my opinion. I could go along with that, at least to a point. I do think that Revan was overwhelmed and eventually fell, though. But I also think he did so knowingly for the greater cause. Revan seems to have a tendency for self-sacrifice, which he used as a weapon. Continued below...

No need to be insulted just because I dare not to agree with you. My opinion really isn't that important, is it?

More NPCs is always good for the player, but it also means more work for the devs, and since there is only so many man-hours for each and every game, I'd rather they focused on plot first and everything else second. Number of NPCs comes some way down that list IMHO. I've actually suggested fewer potential NPCs, if that means we get better NPCs than in KotOR2. I also think the NPCs should be far more limited to dark side characters - you don't make friends by behaving like a jerk and sacrificing everyone around for your own evil ends. You could also tie the number of possible NPCs to the main character's Charisma ability, as they did in 2e AD&D - a character could have only as many NPCs as his or her Charisma modifier, for example. Oh no, now everybody will begin with Charisma 18+ in KotOR3, just out of fear that will happen Well, it's d20 combat... Not much you can do about that, I fear. Truth be told, I do like that it's at least turn-based combat, though it could certainly be a lot more strategic. But yes, it's d20, so it's basically all about hacking away at each other until somebody drops...

Yes. Which should tell us something about how "new and original" d20 really is " <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 3e is very different. Wouldnt exactly call it original, but its very different to previous versions of D&D. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think Jediphile meant it to be sarcastically.. I hope <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You know me too well! *** Influence lost ***

Stuff happens. It's been several years since I used them anyway. It's just that I put the old drive into a new PC last time. I've probably got a hardcopy up in the attic along with all the other stuff. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's like they say: Real men don't make backups... But they cry a lot

Yeah, that was pretty lame... Definitely not a selling point, so for heaven's sake DON'T!!

Oh no, Tatooine again. Well, I shouldn't put it like that, it's just that I'm so tired of seeing Tatooine show up just about every single movie, game plot and novel in Star Wars - that Tatooine was not present in KotOR2 was one of the high points. Besides, I don't really see much reasons for it here. HK-47 sets a trap for the party, they find more Naga Sadow clues, and they encounter a wayward Sith. All of this could just as easily have happened on just about any other planet (well, not Manaan perhaps...). Incidentally, Darth Aumen and Ben should be mutually exclusive - they will both follow you in the ship, but you can't take them both in the group at the same time, because they won't accept each other, and the more you use one of them in the group, the more influence you will lose with the other. The Manaan interlude is nice enough, but if it's skippable anyway, there doesn't seem to be much point. And the way he runs is so unsatisfying. If the point is that he has plot functions that cannot be met now, then I'd rather say you should let him be several levels above the main character and make him invincible as well. That way the main character can escape instead, when it becomes clear that the battle cannot be won, and you can instead have the main character run away with Darth Voult standing behind saying that it's not over and that you'll meet again. You could also have either Ben or Darth Aumen sacrifice him or herself to allow your escape. The problem with that is that it is so forced and so much like Bastila's sacrifice against Malak and Kreia's against Sion. That is unless you let the sacrificed character die. That could be rather strong, sort of like Qui-Gon's death. If you really want to be nasty, then you have the one that the main character has the highest influence with make the sacrifice, so that the main character must now use the rival, who no longer likes you so much, since you seemed to prefer his or her rival And Naboo? Oh dear - gungans! <Shudder>

How can they be on the Rim when they are unknown? Besides, who says they are on the rim? Kreia's comments clearly seems to suggest they're not. But otherwise I'd agree - a thousand years is a long time, and true Sith shouldn't just be carbon copies of Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow (though Sadow was more human than most Sith at the time). I do want to see Khar Delba and Ziost, but I don't want to see them as they were in comic books that were set a thousand years into the past. The Sith should have evolved and rebuilt their forces by now - they have new ships, new weapons, and new technology.

Yes. Which should tell us something about how "new and original" d20 really is "

Yes. Or as Chaosium might say: "Ah, another satisfied customer" :D

That's how the Empire saw it, yes, but it also cost them a lot of pilots who switched to the other side. ... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Maybe they switched due to political allegiances, a lack of commitment to the Empire, rather than to fight on the side with better ships. I don't recall too many US troops switching sides to use the Panzer Type VI TIGER I, even if the Shermans were regarded as "Purple-Heart Boxes". :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually I was referring to the blatant disregard for the lives of their pilots that the Empire demonstrated, but there you go...

Ah, okay. I misunderstood. Sorry for the confusion - mea culpa. Anyway, I included world of the Republic (Coruscant, Alderaan, Myrkr, and Sleheyron) because I don't think the player should begin as Revan or the Exile, but rather as a new, young jedi. So starting on Coruscant, I'd have the player following in Revan's footsteps through several known worlds to a few unknown ones. So there's plot reason why I chose that list, though I admit that some are there because I want them to. Alderaan is there simply because we've never explored it. Same thing about Sleheyron - we heard about it in KotOR1 and 2 (and it was actually supposed to be in KotOR1 - just check here ). Myrkr is there because I really wanted a planet, where the jedi are, for once, disadvantaged - it would be a nice twist and fit well with something I'd like to see in the ending. I could include more worlds on my list, in which case they'd all be Sith worlds, though I might not include Korriban or Malachor V, since we've seen one in two games now, and the other is destroyed. I'd much rather see Sith worlds like Ch'hodos or Rhelg.

Since it's Cthulhu, I've got to ask: Your colleagues took your hand off or the sandwich? :D Hey, in Cthulhu you never know... Anyway, serves you right - in Cthulhu you shoot first and worry... well, you just worry!

X-Wing Alliance ruled! Too bad they wouldn't let Totally Games continue to do them... They then went and did Star Trek: Bridge Commander, which also rocks (though for totally different reasons) and is without a doubt the best Star Trek game ever (not that it says much...) in my book. Then that, too, was killed, despite its success... :angry:

Confrontation with Darth Nihilus... Visas: "There he is, Darth Nihilus himself!" Nihilus: "Hmrmhggr hhhggp mmvvhhr!" Exile: "Ahem, nice Sith spawn... good sithspawn..." Mandalore: "And what a lovely singing voice you must have..."

No, I don't agree with that. It was a choice they made, because they saw the danger. That not the same was repressing it. And note how Kreia puts it: "Many believed the Mandalorians defeated at Malachor V. But the Mandalorians taught the Jedi much through battle. And so it was that Malak, Revan, and the Jedi that followed them discovered their true natures in the Mandalorian crusade." So it seems that the deciding point here is that the jedi who did fight in the Mandalorian Wars did horrible things or at least witnessed them. It's not the knowledge itself, but the experiences, particularly if they are personal. Or, to use Kreia's way of putting it, the warring jedi had been taught a lesson than the council had chosen not learn in the first place. That lesson made them all give in or fall to the dark side. The only one who resisted and rejected that lesson was the Exile.