View619

I'm actually thinking about stacking that with Cape of Disengagement. Hoping that there's no suppression.

Yeah, enemies don't just disengage as soon as you switch to sword and shield or on a whim. The cases when enemies disengaged versus me were very intelligent, minus one Rogue who thought he could rush in unopposed and died from disengagement attacks. From what I've noticed, enemies don't want to take disengagement attacks if the added accuracy plus your base accuracy are likely to result in a hit. It's when your tank's accuracy/damage potential is so low that, even with the added accuracy bonus, the strike is unlikely to hit that enemies seem willing to ignore it. I'll need to try some "pure defensive" tank set-ups to see if this is really true but I haven't run into a situation yet where enemies just ignore Eder, with a shield equipped, just to attack my back-line. Maybe it's a combination of individual stealth on the spell casters, Defender, positioning and intercepting with another unit that makes it manageable? For the record, disengagement isn't just to rush your squishies. I've seen units disengage to assist another unit (Paladins running to heal mages, Fighter running to knock-down a melee unit who is devastating the Priest, etc).

Well, I can confirm that enemies do disengage more often now so the additional engagement slot alone is (finally) useful. I've gotten disengagement strikes out of it a few times, just finished Caed Nua after starting a new game. So, it comes down to whether you prioritize engagement slots vs deflection now. In the old versions, engagement didn't matter since the AI was pretty dumb. Now, it's more important as units will not mindlessly dogpile your tank. If you want to maximize deflection then Defender isn't worth taking. However, even though I can understand why Wary Defender was modified (avoids overlap with the defensive talents focusing on will, reflex and fortitude) I wouldn't take it.

Switch during the fight depending on the situation. Run into battle with a shield, hold long enough for CC to go off, switch to damaging weapon to capitalize. Switch weapon, engage unit that's trying to rush your back-line. Benefit from the instant disengagement strike if they don't stop. Divide up enemy engagement among other units, switch to damaging weapon to reduce numbers faster. etc.

FWIW, enemies in earlier areas make use of disengagement too. I fought the Black Meadow gang (POTD) and had a few units attempting to rush Aloth specifically. Disengagement attacks tore up one who was hell bent on him, and a fighter only disengaged because: There was a clear path to Aloth. He had the health to deal with the strike. Proper use of disengagement interruption tactics covered him. I don't think enemies bum-rushing your backline will be an issue later, assuming you have units that can dish out disengagement damage and have methods of moving your squishies away at minimal risk.

Confirming that my 2.0 game includes Defender at -5 deflection, Wary Defender at +5 for all defenses except deflection. Sounds like a bug in your copy.

Taunts are a terrible idea. Enemies disengaging because your front-line is not doing damage and is not blocking their path, basically failing at their assigned task, is fine. The "problem" is that players have gotten used to dumb AI that focuses on the first unit it can see without taking actual threat into account. The definition of what a "tank" is in POE is changing with the latest update and we're seeing the expected outcry against it since people have gotten used to the old system. Give it a month then re-visit the topic.

Ignoring the fact that constant recovery deactivates after 90 seconds whether it actually healed anything or just overhealed, sure, you can spend another talent on it. Or just play a class with more starting hp, which has the same effect and is also better against burst damage, especially at higher levels.So yeah, veteran recovery is probably better, especially because it can be slapped on classes with better defenses and more hp than the 2.0 fighter. I will agree that the time limit doesn't make any sense. I would like to see what the reasoning behind that modification was.

The reward is a more challenging, engaging experience.

Weapon set switching. Also, talents that improve weapon accuracy and graze to hit chance if you're set on using large shields.

Ignoring the fact that Fighters can improve their base Constant Recovery with another talent and Fighter-only equipment, I guess you could consider Veteran's Recovery to be on-par or better.

Maybe he doesn't want a situation where his ranged units and spell-casters can run away without any problems, and enemies chase down a single melee unit while eating melee and ranged strikes from your friends? Outside of SCS mods, the AI and proper threat identification in the IE games is terrible. But disengagement attacks are already strong enough. They are free, instant attacks with increased accuracy and damage; if your base melee strikes are weak then your disengagement strikes will be weak.

The talents become available from Level 3. They are pretty good imo,

Yeah, Barbarians do have Wild Sprint. That gives them higher disengagement defenses and ramps up their run speed.

I have been tweaking my high defense Paladin and I pretty much play him like I am pvping players. I start the fight with no shield to trick the AI so it thinks I have way lower deflection then I really have. I have armor and high End so a few hits is no big deal. I also have Zealous Charge on if anything un sticks I disengage (no big deal I have high defense and more disengage Defense with Charge) and pretty much pin ball around engagement stuff while my aura helps my ranged Kite if they have to. Its actually fun and a very interactive way of Playing a Paladin who is known to be not very...well interactive. Also with a heavy one hander like a Mace, Warhammer or Saber going onehanded style gives you some sick disengagement attacks that will make the AI pay. If I am taking too much heat I just switch to weapon and shield and am a full tank again. Thank you for confirming that the AI takes disengagement attacks into consideration. Engagement should now work as originally intended.

Quick reply, I'm not telling the OP to Learn-2-Play. I'm saying that he should try another front-line configuration and see if the AI acts in the same way. Maybe a calculation is being made regarding his damage potential with disengagement attacks and the enemies are disengaging based on that.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/81290-so-that-was-terrible/

Welcome back Matt, I believe level scaling extends to all encounters in the game. I remember reading something about players being able to scale the level of final act encounters if desired.

The point of engagement is to slow-down and punish units for mindlessly disengaging, which leads to scenarios where melee units are less willing to just rush the back-line. If the enemy units are completely ignoring your low accuracy, low damage tanks because your disengagement attacks are a joke then Obsidian has done an amazing job on the combat AI. Try changing your front-line setup so your disengagement attacks mean something. But, it does seem like the death of Tank & Spank based on your post. Good news!

R.I.P. Tank & Spank?!

Just wait for a Nexus update.

Well, it seems like the AI is working properly now! Do your fighters do any form of damage when landing disengagement strikes or are they fully defensive with weak damage output? If they have bad accuracy and do low damage overall, you should reconsider their set-up.

IE games didn't allow you to lock the camera to your characters. You had to scroll.

Kdubya nailed it, the accuracy penalty on old Defender was a non-issue for fighters who were meant to be purely defensive. At least the new Defender is actually worth thinking about regardless of which type of fighter you want to build. Honestly, if you think Deflection is more important than Engagement then spend two talents and take Cautious Attack + Hold the Line. If the 2.0 changes to enemy targeting are any indication, we should see more melee enemies peel off from tanks if they are not engaged.

Yeah, that's probably your best bet. Still pretty late for it to change now, maybe post-release. Hope for an explanation at best though, since they didn't make the change randomly.