Brickyard

Yup. I really can't believe they're doing it again. Maybe it's Lucas' fault, or Obsidian's, or Atari's, or Obsidian's, but 2 out of 2 isn't good, when it comes to incomplete games, at least in my book. I'm definitely waiting for a couple weeks after NWN 2 is released before I pay anything for it. Wish I'd have done the same with KOTOR 2...

Well for myself, I'll get a PS3. Have a PC and PS2, and it's worked out just fine, gaming-wise. Don't have an XBox, don't have a 360. For the XBox, there was only a single game released as an XBox-only title that I had any desire to play, and that's soon to be released on the PC, so the XBox would have been pointless for me to spend money on (and I heard Jade Empire was really short, so it may be a game that I'll only get if it's not the full $50). I don't know exactly what's coming out for the 360, but if the games are very similar to the XBox games, they'll be things I don't have any desire to play, while I know there'll be stuff on the PS3 I want to play.

Having read the thread, I think I'm even more inclined to be opposed to digitally downloading anything (JE Sawyer didn't help the cause of the developers in the eyes of this consumer). My priority when buying games is always myself. I'll buy what I think I'll enjoy, and I'll pay the least amount I can for it, while getting the most for my money. I can't think of any other way to approach game buying, to be honest. So, while I realize that DD is still in it's infancy, so far it looks like it doesn't help me, the consumer, at all, and in fact, in most cases, I get LESS for the same amount of money. I'm sure there are exceptions, and I'm sure there's legal reasons why the majority of games that are released both in stores and as DD are priced the same as each other (when one clearly should be priced less, by quite a bit if the numbers in this thread are to be believed), but the end result is that I will be better off purchasing a box with a disc and (crappy) manual than DDin the same game from the developer directly. See, as a customer, I value the physical disc. I also value the physical case and the physical manual (however bad). Currently, with DD, I don't get any of those 3, and as things stand now (for most major titles), I pay the same price. So if I want to provide myself with a physical disc (which I can do, by burning what I download - thus saving me the time of having to download it again), I can. If I want to provide myself with a case for that disc, I can. And if I want to provide myself with a hard copy of the .pdf file the dev provided, I can. (BTW, does anyone else despise the .pdf format entirely? of all text formats, it's by far the most annoying one out there, IMO). But to provide those 3 things for myself, I must spend more money (on the disc, on the case, and on the paper and ink to print out the digital manual). So, currently, I see no reason to EVER download something I can purchase at a store, as I get less for the same amount of money. Perhaps if I lived really far from any store, it would be different, but I don't, so it's not. I can run to 3 different stores that sell games and be back home in 20 minutes with the game in hand, or I can stop by one of them on my way home from work and go about 5-10 minutes out of my way. As for downloading things that are offered via DD only, I've yet to do it. I love (almost) all things Bioware, but I wouldn't download even a full expansion (the size of Hordes, for example), if it required me to connect to Bioware's servers EVERY TIME I started to play...no matter how good the game was. And I see zero value in downloading modules as short as what they've released so far, no matter what the cost (at NWN Vault, if a module is part 1, and there's no part 2 available, I just won't download it. it'll be short, probably not very good, and it'll be months, if ever, before part 2 comes out, where I'll have forgotten what happened in part 1, etc). I hope that, eventually, DD allows more quality games to be made, but I don't see DD being at a state where I would really use it much for a few years, at least. I know that unless I'm playing an online-only game, at present I won't play any single player game that requires me to online validate when I load up (or re-install).

What is the ESRB? I mean, are they a US-only body, or international in some way? Who are they accountable to? Is there any way I, as a registerd voter in the US, can affect who is a part of this ESRB? If their new decision is based at all on the "nude mesh" Bethesda shipped on the disc (but is 100% inaccessible without a 3rd party extractor that had to be written, and then someone had to find the file, and then make a mod to make use of it), then they're simply morons, and I'd like new members on the ESRB.

I'm sure most companies can deliver finished working games under favorable circumstances. Their ability to create those circumstances fluctuates. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well this sort of infers that something happened that a lot of us think did happen, and that the publisher is the reason K2 is so poor (especially at the end). And when the only patch released messes up the game more (for some of us), and there's no hope in sight for a second patch (movies and music don't count), the whole thing comes off rather poorly. My question (which you probably can't actually answer, since I understand you weren't at the company then, but perhaps at least someone at Obsidian can address, or at least read, if not respond) would be the following: When Obsidian accepted the job of K2, did they think they were getting favorable working circumstances, and only realize later that they were wrong, or did they actually know the situation would be bad, and take the job with the time constraints so they could put their company "on the map"? If the answer is the former, then I hope Obsidian learned a LOT from the experience and start to take on projects they feel they can actually do a good job on. With so few quality RPGs being made (IMO), I'd love another company to start developing good ones. If the answer is the later, and I really hope it isn't, I'll be honest and say that I hope Obsidian goes the way of Troika. I don't think it is, but I also wonder how anyone at Obsidian could have actually thought they'd make a quality game in such a short amount of time. In the end, I just want some good RPGs to play.

What I really hope Obsidian learns from this (that Troika apparantly didn't) is that even if you are given a very short timeline from your publisher, you make sure that what DOES get released is quality, even if it's not very much. But that I mean bug-testing as well as no quests that simply can't be finished, or the final map problems of landmarks existing that you can't get there, as well as all the extra cut content on the XBox disc. I could go into detail, but that's really not the point of this thread, but the majority of people agree that K2 is pretty flawed (and some think it's also great, while some think it was a waste of money). The guys at Obsidian may have worked on other classics in the past, but they weren't the only people working on them, so aren't 100% responsible for those games, and might have had actually little to do with them (myself, I don't know what % of Planescape was done by current Obsidian employees), or might have done 95% of those games. What really matters is what Obsidian has done, which is one game. And in this gamer's opinion, it was great in concept, horrible in execution (especially as Darkside). Sure, there are spots of brilliance, but overall I got a negative feeling from playing it. And I've unrecommended it to two friends (well, recommended that it's worth waiting for it to hit $20, as before then, they'll likely be disappointed), and neither has purchased it yet. Seriously, when I see that K2 won RPG of the Year awards, my first thought is that the only way it wins that is if there aren't other RPGs released (or very crappy ones). It's a $20 game that was sold for $50. I think Obsidian's biggest current problem is a complete lack of anyone in their company that has decent public relation skills. Morgan shouldn't have posted what he did, since it simply wasn't fact, but since then, the silence has been even worse. I do hope they'll succeed, as there are very few games coming out that I really like, and K2 (as well as NWN2) is the type of game I want to play. But I don't want to play crappy RPGs. I really hope they'll turn into another Bioware (best gaming company there is, slightly ahead of Blizzard, IMO), but they're not off to the best of starts. And I'll be very cautious about NWN2.

Umm...

They do?

Starcraft (with Brood Wars) Gran Turismo 3 Baldur's Gate 2

Who? Sorry, but I hold companies accountable when they make statements about their products. Good or ill. Any sane person would. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Most people posting here (not necessarily this thread), and most gamers, aren't sane.

Well the only way you can really start to get any sort of dynamic worlds in MMORPGs is to start by having online GMs with power to take over an NPC (like the DM in NWN). The first online game I ever played (Dragonrealms) had this. No other game since then have I come across that has it. This would give the company (SOE/S-E/Blizzard) the ability to alter some part of the world on the fly, and perhaps even have each server slightly different than the rest. Of course that would take time, money and effort, and since users aren't screaming for it, no way they'll spend unnecessary resources making the storyline more interesting. You'd also need some actual ROLE PLAYING for this to work, which is severely lacking in MMORPGs.

w666tvr, All that you said may be true (and I believe it is), but it still doesn't change the fact that this game was made by both Obsidian and LucasArts, and so the responsibility of the game is down to both of them. Who's decision was it to LEAVE IN the Mira and GOTO parts at the end? Or leave the unreachable markers on the map in the Academy? No one's? Then who missed them and forgot to remove useless encounters and map markers? The music/movie patch may, in fact, be done and ready to go and at LucasArts, and they simply don't care, but it doesn't change that an Obsidian rep said it would be out in a few days, like others have said, a few months ago, and it's still not here. So the only reason we know one exists is because Obsidian said so. But it's not here, through their own fault or not, and they've said precious little since then. The one thing this has taught me is that the partnership between LucasArts and Obsidian is one to avoid in the future. I can't say that the guys at Obsidian are great or not, and I can't say anything about the guys at LA, either. But the support level, post-release, of the only Obsidian game to be released is, basically, zero (I had more bugs AFTER the patch than before it). I sincerely hope that the partnership between Obsidian and Atari is a whole lot better, since NWN (and it's expansions) has proven that Atari is a publisher that allows it's developer quite a bit of freedom to fix the problems in the game. But KOTOR 2 is basically a dead, unfinished game, IMO. Could have been great, and showed signs of it, but overall I couldn't even call it "good", due to so many problems (both bug-wise and story-wise). (and yes, I'm a big negative about K2, overall, but if someone would just give me my $50 back, I'd shut up about it)

That seems to pretty much be standard practice for SOE (never played SWG, but another SOE game).

I wouldn't recommend buying it. I've had game-stopping bugs, in the same place, both pre and post-patch. And this script error was reported very early on, just not ever fixed. Basically I had to redo Telos to avoid it the 2nd time it occurred (the first time, on my first play through, I just stopped playing the game for a few weeks, didn't happen on my 2nd playthrough, but happened again, post-patch, on my 3rd, causing me to go back to a save on Peragus to avoid it - it's a scripting problem in the fight with the Exchange boss). The movie/music patch won't really improve gameplay at all, but it's delay (a few days becoming a few months, without word) definitely shows there's little to no support for this game at either Lucas or Obsidian, so the bugs that still exist will either never get fixed, or will be fixed by the gamers themselves. As for the story, it's ok as light side, until the end, then it falls to pieces. As darkside, it's completely childish, IMO. The influence system has a lot to do with this (do NICE things when certain people are around to make them more EVIL). The main story, IMO, isn't very Star Wars-esque (but some people love it), and the main NPC is perhaps my least favorite of all time (Kreia). I'd say if you loved KOTOR 1, you'll most likely like KOTOR 2, but be disappointed at more than a couple things (mostly near the end).

I really think the lack of communication is for one of the two reasons: 1 - LucasArts simply doesn't care and has told Obsidian they are not allowed to comment about it. or 2 - Neither LucasArts nor Obsidian care. I'm actually leaning towards #2 as more time passes and no mention, anywhere, is made. And to be honest, I HOPE that this lack of a finished product and lack of post-game support affects the sales of Neverwinter Nights 2 in a noticable way, so that gaming publishers AND developers will learn that quality does, in fact, matter. I know Troika learned that lesson well.

I think the biggest problem with every MMORPG that I've played (which is only 3 graphical ones) is a very static world with little content. I did play a text-MMORPG for a few years, and looking back on it now (this was in like 96/97 through 99), I am amazed that they were able to create STORY in it rather often. It was free (via AOL) for a while, then went to the net and was pay. Talking about DragonRealms, if anyone is curious (which is why I think Hero's Journey might actually be good, since it's made by the same company). My other experiences are with Asheron's Call, EverQuest 2, and Final Fantasy XI. From what I've seen, I'd rate AC as the best, FFXI 2nd (and probably 1st, but I've not played it as much as I played AC), and EQ2 a definite dead last in terms of content. As a sidenote to EQ2 - this has taught me two things. 1 - NEVER buy an MMORPG the day it comes out. You will experience some of the STUPIDEST bugs for an amazing amount of time (for example, no armorer was able to craft any level 30 or higher recipies until February - the game came out in early Novemember - due to a typo. People started running into this in late Nov, and I hit it in early Dec. It was reported in SEPTEMBER in beta, and not fixed until February). There are lots of other examples of poor testing, poor response time in fixing widely reported bugs in a timely manner, and more. But Day 1 of an MMORPG you will still be playing an early beta. 2 - SOE has very poor customer service and relations. Final Fantasy XI, I recently started playing (it's cheap, and a co-worker has been playing it for a while). It's definitely polished (for a console-friendly MMORPG), but that's to be expected since it's been out since 2001 or 2002. But my starting experiences are much better than with EQ2 last fall. I don't know if I'll stick with it long, though, but at least the first month will be fun. DragonRealms, looking back, amazes me after playing AC, EQ2 and now FFXI. They were able to change things on the fly (areas changed without requiring a download or purchased expansion). They had mobile monsters (they would sometimes invade the cities, and you would, if someone was in the right area, have advance notice, and occasionally a city would be able to prevent massive spreading of the monsters, at other times they'd get far into the city and might actually destroy a building or three, as well as their targets were always the heavily populated areas where people collected for healing, crafting, teaching, etc - just inside the city gates). I think back on what they were able to do, and, apart from graphics, IMO online games have regressed quite considerably. That was a game were PVP was entirely legal, and definitely possible, but simply rarely happened. People who couldn't handle acting like adults simply got hunted out of existence by EVERYONE. Now gankers own PvP games, and in games were there's no PvP, they simply train mobs to people they don't like, and there's really nothing than can be done about it (there's no penalty for death, or such a minor one that it's not even an incovenience). Recently I checked to see if DR was still around, and it is. Unfortunately the price has gone up considerably (it's like $20 or $25 a month to play now).

I still find my favorite gaming world to explore and learn about is Morrowind's. Not that the gameplay is my favorite (I like some of it, don't like some of it), or that the plot in the game is all-involving, but the world itself is the best setting I've played a game in.

Nope. Not after K2. I've never purchased a Lucas game before K1, so I don't have a long history of buying their stuff. Wait, I purchased Lego Star Wars, so I guess it's case by case, but I had played that at my sisters, so I knew what I was buying (a stupidly easy game, but incredibly fun and funny, even if short), I just seriously doubt I'll purchase K3 (and I have no intention of buying the Ep 3 movie game).

PC's are superior, IMO, because of a few things. #1 being mods. EA's F1 Challenge on PC blows away the console version, simply due to it being moddable. 60+ extra tracks, dozens of extra types of cars vs the stock stuff on the console version. Morrowind on PC vs Morrowind on XBox. Not really close (IMO). #2 being Real-time strategy games. StarCraft (and the like) can't be touched by a console controls. You need a mouse and keys to play it effectively. I think I remember seeing a version of Warcraft on a console, and it was horrid (I could be wrong on the game, it's been a while). #3 being able to do other things. I probably spend, on average, about $150 a year on upgrading my computer (I continually upgrade, and so never by a complete system, and I also have a 2nd system where my older parts go, gradually cycling old parts to the trash bin), and it can do so much more than play games. Create DVDs and CDs. Browse the net. Pay my bills. Word processing (this matters if you type lots) and printing, and you can go on. I've not spent a penny on PC hardware this year, and the only thing I might purchase is a vid card (my current one is a BFG 5500 256mb card). But that's only a maybe, if I get a game that requires something stronger (I've not got a game that can't play on full graphis settings with that card, apart from EQ2, which my understanding is that no comp can play that game on full settings yet). My PS2 cost about $200 2.5 or so years ago, and granted, that's all it cost (well, apart from having to buy a 2nd controller and buying a 2nd memory card). But all it can do is play games. And those games don't look as good as the games I have on PC. F1 Challenge on PC looks a ton better than GT3, for example. With the next gen of consoles costing $300 - $500, it's even less likely I'll consider them money well-spent, unless the number of titles available for PC drops considerably (which wouldn't surprise me, unfortunately). #4 PC is what I'm used to. I've had a PC-type system since the Commodore 64 (the best gaming system of the 80's, by far). I don't like using a controller when I could use a keyboard much more effectively (racing games notwithstanding, as I have a wheel for PC and PS2). I do have a controller for my PC, but only one game uses it (the latest Fifa game). It's much easier to control, in most games, with a keyboard than a controller, to me. Probably because I've been using mouse/keyboard more often and for longer, but that's how it is.

I did, as well. Maybe that was the goal? I do wonder if Obsidian will step up their support for NWN2. They'll so absolutely be compared to Bioware again, and their short track record for post-release support (or at least communication) isn't really much to brag about.

What sort of scares me about Obsidian possibly doing K3, beyond the obvious that it's apparantly not really possible for them to release an RPG using an existing engine in 13 months, is that in one interview somewhere, Chris Avellone stated that he'd never try to write an Empire Strikes Back type of ending (or some words to that effect). I really don't see where he's going with this (unless his ESB-type ending was mostly just cut). I mean, I can see hints of what might have eventually become an ESB-type ending, but it's not in the release. At the end of ESB, you know where everyone stands, and you know (or at least suspect) what is going to come next. And better yet, you know that there IS a next. Also, even though you know all of this, nothing is really resolved. No bad guy was taken out. At the end of TSL (at least as LS, as that's all I've finished), Kreia is dead (the main driving force in the game), yet you (and your companions) are sort of in a confused state. There's some sort of hanging story with the Remote, Mira had to inexplicably (meaning there's no followup) fight Hanharr, and the Ebon Hawk takes off after being beyond repair, at least that's what it looked like. Perhaps I'm forgetting some endings, but I don't have a clue, really, what comes next for anyone. I have some vague ideas of what the long-term future is for a few of them, but not what any of them might do for the rest of the KOTOR story (Revan-Exile resolution). Maybe Chris meant that his ending is ESB-esque because the story isn't over, and that's the extent of it? But even in that regard, ESB fills in some necessary tie-ins between SW and RotJ. The Rebels are still fighting the Empire, and Darth Vader is still the ultimate bad-guy, but we learn something important about him. The heros from the first film all grow, to some extent. Get either more interesting or learn more. And one of them is now in serious trouble. I just remember being as baffled by Chris's statement as I was about the end of the game.

Wow. I never got any good loot in K2. Of course by good loot I mean lightsabers and robes. My first play-through, with myself, Kreia, Visas, Handmaiden and Atton as Jedi, it wasn't until somewhere about 3/4 through Onderon (I went Nar, Dantooine, Onderon, Korriban) that I got my 3rd lightsaber. I thought that was incredibly stupid. Bao-Dur knows how to build a lightsaber. He's on the ship. There are 5 Jedi (or force learners) on the ship. Given that there wasn't any really "rush" feeling to the game (no in-game pressure to complete the planets quickly at all), you'd think a priority would be to get everyone a saber (or two, in the case of Handmaiden). My second play-through, with the intent of making everyone possible a Jedi, it was worse. It was so bad I started over (and went for DS). Only starting over, I gave myself (via savegame editor) about 20 lightsabers of all kinds (normal, dual, short) so that my Jedi could be Jedi. But I still haven't made it through the game DS, because it's really rather poorly written as a DS character. But I have myself, Kreia, Visas, Handmaiden, Atton, Bao-Dur and Mira as DS mastery Sith, fully upgraded for sabers, so at least we look really cool in the evil way (except for Atton, who looks dead but strangely isn't). All the other loot was meaningless, IMO. Sure, I have loads of credits, but since you can't buy lightsabers (that I have found), credits are pretty worthless if you're looking for lightsabers. But that's not really my main problem with K2, just a minor annoyance.

Hopefully they realize they are responsible for much of the game's problems. I wouldn't say 100% of the problems, but quite a bit. At this point, I'm neither for nor against Obsidian making a K3. If they had more than the 12 months LucasArts gave them for K2, and still put out the crappy game they did, then I'd be against it, but since they were so rushed for time, I would like to think the problems with K2 were due more to not knowing exactly how long something would take to program, seeing as this was their first game developed. And while there were sparks of gaming goodness in K2, I'd rather see a game full of gaming goodness (or at least a whole lot less gaming badness) before I wished Obsidian did K3. Maybe NWN2 will be great. I really hope so. For the campaign, they don't have very high to aim to be better than NWN's OC, so it should be an improvement. But until they actually develop a solid game, from beginning to end, it's sort of hard to want to play another game by them (or want the next installment of a great franchise to be done by them).

Well my personal theory (of which there really isn't any proof of, and perhaps some evidence to the contrary) is that before the Big Bang, there was a Big Collapse from the previous Big Bang, and we are in an endless cycle of Bangs and Collapses. Now I know there is some evidence that the Universe is ever-expanding, so that sort of goes against the idea of a Big Collapse, but I don't think there's conclusive proof to that, but what do I know? But a cycle of Bangs and Collapses makes more sense to my mind than all those string theories and multiple dimension theories, so it's what makes sense to me. Still doesn't explain why the matter/energy exists in the first place, though. I really love listening to Micheau Kakou (horribly misspelled, I know), the theoretical physicyst that does quite a few radio and TV spots (especially on Discovery Science), but admit that sometimes I'm completely lost listening to him.

I'd like the unaltered originals on DVD as well. I've got them on VHS, but they're not widescreen, unfortunately. I have a DVD burner, but not a TV capture card. Anyone know how well a VHS tape would transfer to a home-made DVD with a capture card?