Sepp

To get the discussion a bit down to earth again (or something!) you might want to take a look at the Episode III novelization. Which was, though not actually written by !George Lucas!, read and edited and revised by him several times. It gives no IT IS ACTUALLY LIKE THIS OR THAT answer either since characters only speculate about it themselves, but it's interesting and relevant nonetheless. AND it didn't make George Lucas edit it out or anything, so who knows . . .

"Listen well." Her voice was warm and kind, and her breath smelled of spices grown in alien soil. "Everything I tell you is a lie. Every question I ask is a trick. You will find no truth in me." She came close enough that her whiskers tickled his ear, and whispered, "Though you believe nothing else, you may rest your faith on this." Vergere rocks. I meant to say, however, that neither did Kreia alway lie, nor is everybody in Star Wars necessarily Good or Eeeevil at heart. Enter no conflict against fanatics unless you can defuse them. Oppose a religion with another religion only if your proofs (miracles) are irrefutable or if you can mesh in a way that the fanatics accept you as god-inspired. This has long been the barrier to science assuming a mantle of divine revelation. Science is so obviously man-made. Fanatics (and many are fanatic on one subject or another) must know where you stand, but more important, must recognize who whispers in your ear. - Missionaria Protectiva, Primary Teaching Yes I quote too much.

Awww. How boring. =(

???

What's "nature," exactly? It has a will? Woah. Sounds bold. (rock analogy? Ah, found it, first page. Don't see what's up with "nature" and its "will" though.)

Mmmmmhhhz, thought-provoking stuff. metadigital: As to what you called a chaotic non-deterministic universe vs. meaningful coincidences - an existing mix of both sounds "plausible" to me. Ehm. Stuff! Judeo-Christianity is not what I would compare the Force to. It is almost 100% the Tao. From a certain point of view. Also regarding what the "balance" means I think. Not the greyish-ness that is equally distant from light and dark because it is "neutral". But the state of atunement to the comos and whatnot that is beyond nomeclature like good or evil (but which would, by us, still be described as "good" in a sense of universal harmony and stuff). That making any sense? http://tao.nolallen.com/taoteching.html See chapter 16 for example. And a lot of others. Uh. o_O

Agreed with Luke. Disagreed with the "not sociable" part. "Unreasoning passion is the province of darkness," Vergere said. "But an understood emotion is not unreasoning. That is why the route to mastery is through self-knowledge." Her tilted eyes widened. "It

The "flame" line was a nod to The Great Phantom who mentioned that it's almost strange that no horde of fanatics has yet attempted to conquer this thread as so often happens. I thought what I posted would make for splendid target-practive indeed for such people, is all. Why, sure. What I was trying to get at is: I guess the Force is to blame for Shmi's pregnancy. As in, it was the will of the Force. That kind of direction. ["Certainly" not two distinct wills. The Force is one. *New flame target.*] You're right, of course. I think Luke didn't mean anything much beyond "do what would be in keeping with the Force" an-- ugh. Well. Aren't the Ten Commandments, like, the will of God? ^___^' Anyway, this is terrible to really discuss and more like "guessing." Guess: The Force, like God, would be most delighted if everything would be just fine. In balance and all that. Terribly generalized, but eh. I think that's a pretty safe guess, even. But maybe not. Moreover, the Force, like God and what-have-you, can also at times apart from guiding things if listened/allowed to, go so far as to actually directly influence or do something. That the Force has or has not got a "will" does not have to be tied to there being "choice" or not. "It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it.But perhaps these are the excuses of an old woman who has grown to rely on a thing she despises." ^Reading that, I think she does not say "I found out the Force has a will" or something like that. She says "It is said that the Force has a will" as if it is something commonly heard or accapted or often said and she with all her experiences believes it as well. What sets her apart from these others and what your question goes at I guess is that she equals Will of the Force = No Choice. =( That, I don't believe. Which doesn't have to mean anything, of course. After Nietzsche: There is no such thing as free will. There is also no such thing as unfree will. There is only strong will, and weak will.

Favorite: Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II. Hate: Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy. Silly. Stupid. Short. Lightsaber-simulation and nothing much more.

You don't "normally" become a Jedi at your "high" age. The vast majority of soon-to-be Jedi are snatched away by Jedi cradle robbers as babies from their parents rather early on. Or as Dooku put it at the age of nine: Every Jedi is a child his parents decided they could live without.

Too soon to say. I'll be watching its progress. I've always wanted to order Star Destroyers and TIE squadrons around and stuff. If it's done . . . "right." Rebellion didn't do too well in that regard . . . I don't expect anything much. It could be good, though. Maybe. Hopefully. Argh.

The New Jedi Order. For all its notable and not-so-notable "flaws" - the other series have more as far as I'm concerned. ^__^

The nature of the Force and what it means to be a Jedi is a central theme of The New Jedi Order series. To be a Jedi is to serve the Force. "We serve it best by listening to its will, and serving the good with our every action

? The Force doesn't have "sides." :ph34r:

[unnecessary Correction:] Brian Herbert, sir. Frank Herbert was the brillant father, don'tcha forget. " Apart from the unfortunate confusion, I'll have to agree.

Do you think Yoda couldn't move planets around?

Mitth'raw'nuruodo vs. Revan? Heck, Revan is made out to be basically Thrawn+Force User... guess he'd win. More interesting would be to see Revan vs. the not-yet-created love child of Darth Vader's granddaughter Jaina Solo (for lots of Force potential) and Jag Fel (for Wedge-uber-elite pilot skills AND Thrawn-education and -tactics). Revan would sooo go down. Wonder what they'll whip up as a bad guy in the future books. Star Wars and its supercharacters. Oh well. Better than superweapons. Kinda. Sometimes. Argh.

Oh, not at all. I can only recommend Steven Mitchell's translation/interpretation of the Tao Te Ching. You could also read it online, but you'd miss the introduction and comments such as: "[...] The misperception may arise from his insistence on wei wu wei, literally "doing not-doing," which has been seen as passivity. Nothing could be further from the truth. A good athlete can enter a state of body-awareness in which the right stroke or the right movement happens by itself, effortlessly, without any interference of the conscious will. This is a paradigm for non-action: the purest and most effective form of action. The game plays the game; the poeom writes the poem; we can't tell the dancer from the dance. [You will find that many times in Star Wars (Luke destroying Death Star I, for instance.]" As for the improving the world thing from Chapter 29 - it's not meant in the sense that you should just sit there and watch since everything's all right. It is written against the urge to take things into your own hands and "improve" the world by controlling what happens. Without spoiling great surprises: If you ever reach the end of the New Jedi Order series, a prominent character will for a time come to an (unusually high) state of attunement to the Force (and thus everything) and has in his reach the effortless power to "right all wrongs" ... and doesn't. You will find inside the Tao Te Ching many instances where it is said that "the Master" makes use of any situation and all things. Not for a "good goal" like a random "hero" might drag the world from the "dark," push it through the door into the "light" and then start a vain attempt to keep it there, locked up tight - "the Master" would 'merely' show the world the door to a 'better' way and leave it up to the world to listen to him/her or ignore him/her. For example. XD ? We do not even have to look far to see examples of going neither uber-light nor dark without falling into apathy. You say Kreia wants the Exile to act kinda neutral, usually - if somebody offers you money you should (in order to make her happy) not take it and kill the guy (dark) nor deny the reward (light) but take it (neutral), for example. Not that I would necessarily agree with that or see it that way, but that's apathy? I think not. You can look forward to Traitor then. Though I'm afraid you will hate it. Without spoilering too much, there's a character claiming something like "the Force is one," without inherent sides and, well, while this is of course open to interpretation the rest of the series does more to support that person's ideas than discredit them. You even have prominent Good Guy utilizing *oh my god dark side!?!?* Force Lightning and stuff. But you'll find out on your own. ^_^' Yup. Luke falls pretty much into apathy for half of the series because he's not sure what to make of the threat and is afraid of what the threat's apparent absence in the Force might mean for the Jedi Order - he's doing nothing too "good" with that attitude. Kyp on the other hand is (up until later in the series [yes, he actually develops!]) how he's always been, and kind of "wrong" in that too.

http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/st...jc20010817.html http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/st...jc20000424.html Also see http://starwarz.com/timeline , download the current Timeline Gold version and take a look at the blahblahX.pdf file with the Appendices and huge texts about "canon."

Edit: Aegis: You don't think that was one of the purposes of the project(s)? =p Why, Taoism. At least I haven't come across anything more like the Force than the Tao or anything more like the Jedi Code than the Tao Te Ching.

KotOR I story idea is not so extraordinary. There's the bad guy with the superweapon - kill him and snatch the thing for your own use or kill him and dispatch of the superweapon as well. The added twists like the "revelation" and the pretty decent way the story is actually TOLD make it stand out somewhat. The KotOR II story idea is vastly more original and thus more interesting and... "better" in my eyes (and not only because I've seen more than my share of superweapons in Star Wars) - it absolutely hasn't been done before in all of Star Wars (well, to my knowledge anyway). What the heck? And so on. The way the story is told in-game is worse than in KotOR I, however - it is not "fleshed out" enough. =/ I don't think there were all these kiddies going WHOA I JUST BEAT THE GAME - Now somebody please tell me what it was all about??? after KotORI. KotORII tells a more "difficult" story and it's not like it can't be understood but there's much that can be missed and well, ... I don't like LucasArts either for the release dates fun. Oh well.

No. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Unless you accredit Vergere's (the lying, tricking, decieving traitor Vergere's) speech of how he's the living Jedi dream and so on and so forth and the "written fact" that he was, like, Avatar of the Force and in perfect attunement with everything and all the rest to "power" . . . Anyhow, Kyp Durron has lots of raw power, so much he himself is convinced he's got more than Luke (might not be too far-fetched even, but whatever). Then there's Vergere, who could do things like severing Force connections just like that and generally just rocks but really... saying who's most "powerful" is already a stretch, and most powerful Force user is a knockout. How do you messure that? Is most powerful who destroyed the most planets? Lifted most rocks? Who knows most?

If we go from the the assumption that the Force, like "exists," it probably is not too far-fetched to acknowledge that, as Yoda I think says, with the Force, nothing is impossible. Or at least only few things. And in theory. :D It's the Force, after all. It cannot even be put into precise words, much like most "powers or Gods" in most religions - and it can much less be defined ala "this is possible" - "this not", etc.

from Hanharr's dialogue "It is how I first heard it - from the mouths of Hutts. It is the way they speak the title of your tribe in their language." <{POST_SNAPBACK}> "Jeedai" is probably also a reference/nod to The New Jedi Order book series. It is the Yuuzhan Vong word for "Jedi" and used prominently throughout the series. Another reference to the series is when back in KotOR I Canderous tells of a strange alien rock that suddendly started flying and blasting away at them with weird weapons before leaving the Star Wars galaxy, it was a (admittedly much clearer) reference to a Yuuzhan Vong coralskipper. Maybe the Hutts "really" use "Jeedai," but I can't say Jabba sounded like he was saying Jeedai... and the Hutts throughout both KotOR games didn't use Jeedai either... well... probably. XD My guess they developers just let Hanharr use this "excuse" since, well, he could hardly have met a Yuuzhan Vong or heard one speak. Or, well, maybe the Hutt he heard was a Yuuzhan Vong in disguise.

Writting something like a school research paper about it helps. Well, helped me. I am now only getting "worthwhile" Star Wars things. That included uh... only three or three games and books in the two years since that. I used to buy most Star Wars books that came out.