The Great Phantom

Well, the order did oddly collapse soon after Revan dissappeared. Naturally, the two would have wanted to spend as much time together as possible. I do think that she would have left the Order around the time Revan quit, maybe a little bit before hand, too. The Order was already collapsing, and we all know that Bastila is no optimist.

Wow... this is an odd discussion... In the game, it states that, no matter what, the Exile travelled around the Outer Rim, avoiding people as much as possible, for what should be obvious reasons. I'm all for the Child Support idea.

This is what makes Kreia closer to True Sith (idealogically), then fallen Jedi Sith. Fallen Jedi always cling to their past, and focus their hatred toward it. As such they never "transcend" those boundries. Kreia elaborates on this on Dantooine if you follow the dark side. The only reasoning I can come up as to why Sion decided to bend to her will again is because she knows the "secret." And since he craves power, he decides to do a little brown nosing to learn it. Or perhaps without Nihilus, he's not strong enough to stand up to her himself. It's obvious with your dialog options with him though, that he doesn't understand Kreia at all. But she defnitely understands him. So she has power over him merely because of that. And as far as the Force, and it's will. I think it's a lot more then people give it credit for. Choice or not, it's will still comes about. As was the case with Vader. Palpatine tried to alter the outcome, and failed in the end. Putting that into context, it's much easier to see why Kreia hates the Force so much, because no matter what she does, the Force WILL have it's way eventually. While she didn't fully elaborate on it, this is another reason non-Jedi are more powerful then Jedi. Han Solo, "There's no all powerful Force controlling MY destiny!" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Un-Force Sensitives are still controlled by the Force, they just can't manipulate it along the way. And even if they don't realize it, everybody has a little Force in them. This is what makes the Exile so dangerous, and Kreia's plot more self-destructive. BTW: The Sith are supposed to hate Jedi. Even the original Sith came from Jedi (the Lords, not species). Plus, they are opposing ends of a spectrum. If someone were to walk the path of nuetrality, they would end up falling to either side. Once again, as Korriban Kreia said, "Apathy is death." Even the Exile is 'controlled' by the Force. And, there is ALWAYS choice. The Force will have it's way in the end, but the affects and intensity of those affects will vary, depending on Choice. If it weren't so, then would the Jedi do everything in their power to resist 'falling?' If the Force had TOTAL control, then this would be a pointless fight, and many more would have joined the Sith. Once again, as Obi-Wan said, the Force PARTLY controls you, but you also PARTLY control it. This in itself is proof that there is Choice. As for the Nature of the Force (which this topic will eventually resort to, I might as well help it along): The Force did not have 'sides' until people chose 'sides.' Until sentience, it was neutral, but with sentience came morallity, which forced it to divide itself. This is stated by many Source Books, and by many comics and whatnot. Kreia bares NO resemblance to any form of True Sith. She may be closer, but she still clings to the light, in quite a few ways. Sith are supposed to seek power, that is their original purpose. The ORIGINAL shism occured when several Jedi discovered that by giving into their baser emotions, they gained instant, and seemingly total, power. The Jedi Council warned them of the consequences, but they ignored, and a massive war started. At the end, they lost, and were exiled. They eventually discovered Korriban, etc., etc. Here's my take on the ancient Sith Lords, just because this fits in with the current state of Kotor. Marka Ragnos was a genious. He was up there with Revan, as far as I can tell. Where every other Sith was involved with expansion, Ragnos delved into ancient records, and heard talk about Jedi, and another 'empire' stronger than most anything else. (These were the records of the Dark Jedi, not the species. If it were records of the actual species, then this would be referring to the Builders.) Ragnos new that if the Sith discovered this 'empire,' then they would be crushed, and the Sith would eventually fall. Therefore, he started a form of martial law, and expansion virtually ceased. The Sith hated him, more or less, for this. BUT, he knew that as long as the Sith were busy hating him, they would not collide with the Republic. Then he died, and his two successors fought. He appeared, and warned them to choose their battles wisely. Then came the Jerrigons (sp???). Sadow, ignoring the advice of Ragnos, saw this as an opportunity to gain power, and expand the Empire once more. If you want me to continue the story, let me know. I think that most people around here know it already, though.

See what you've done Obsidian? You've warped the minds of fans everywhere by taking out the whole focus of Star Wars!

The True Sith does not necessarily mean the species. Besides, Nadd had a Sith Master WAY after their alleged death, but he was too sissy to fight for the title of Dark Lord, fled, and found that other Sith's ghost on Yavin... (I always forget his name).

You should be able to go to the party selection screen. That's what I did, right after the Droid mission.

The Force can control, but it is also controllable. The Jedi seek for this balance btwn the two, but the Sith seek total control, and force it to listen to their commands. The Jedi follow its advice, but the Sith force it to do what they want. Just pointing that out. This means that destiny is what the Jedi try to find, and it comes no matter what, but it may be different than expected. The Sith ignore it, and ony confess to utter powerlessness at death, IF they have regrets. If not, then they join the Dark Side and cause trouble all over the place (Ajunta Pall, etc.)

That's Queen Talia in Dark Robes... lol. You're character is on there at one time, if you're DS.

I want some form of closure on Revan and Exile. If LS Male Revan dies, then Bastila MUST die with him, because they are destined to be together FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Other than that, I think that having a say in rebuilding the Jedi as LS would be cool, especially with every main character being the canonical LS. They need to make a game where you're a Jedi Master on the council, and have to make huge decisions that affect the entire game... Even if it's just one of the 'Day in the Life' games, that would be pretty cool... Maybe I'll make something like that one day when I have free time...

Force Bonds. She is bonded w/ the Heart of the Force, plus she personally has the whole Republic army at her back. That could have helped. Plus, she probably has spent most of her time in the Outer Rim searching for her beloved Revan... Battle Meditation would also help if attacked by thugs or puny Sith spies... Just an idea, of course

Do another world, and take her with you. I'm not sure if it's base on influence or worlds, but doing this will get you both.

I say we go there, then...

Not sure that someone else didn't already say this, but Anakin is really the one to bring balance. He kills the last of the Sith Lords, thereby killing the Sith, and at the same time, making them stronger. That is where the Sith'ari assumption comes from. Most people say that Chosen One and Sith'ari are one and the same. I don't know, because the Sith'ari could be the big deal behind KOTOR I II and III, but once again, I don't know.

Revan was at fault, but perhaps there was a purpose. He/she seems to be the type of person that doesn't even blink without some grand purpose behind it.

What are the Holowan Labs forums??? Those sound the most promising...

I've taken the test 50+ times, and there is no Dark Lord, there is just Sith Lord. Dark Lord isn't even a class in the RPG, so I don't think that it's on the test.

There may be destiny, but Yoda says that the future is always changing, so it is obvious that it is maleable, and can be changed based on Choice. Kreia is effectivly insane by the end of the game, and Visas has enough experience with both sides of the Force to have that wisdom.

I agree. The first one was like one of those choose-your-own-adventure stories, without all of the annoying page turns.

Why, though? Did I miss a reference to this in the game? Who's to say that destroying the Force will have any negative effects at all, beyond a handful of Jedis and force sensitives losing their special abilities? The Force may link all life, but it doesn't necessarily sustain it. And the exile proves that life can exist without the force. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is kinda hte whole point of the game. Kreia is interested in the Exile because he lost his connection to hte force and strived on - it was his own presonal abilities that allowed him to survive. She also wants to know how he could just willingly walk away from the Force and live a life based on his own merit. When a Sith, she was strong and powerful. When Sion and Nihilus beat her and stole her powers, she felt how weak and frail she was. She wanted to learn how you could do something she couldn't, and at the same time, use you to destroy the Force so that such weakness would not be in her. The Force was a drug to her, she couldn't stop using it. Also, as your apprentice, she wanted to teach you the things she saw to go with your strength. Her intention wasn't to kill the whole world - that's just silly. She just wanted to make it without the Force, the thing she hated and love so much at once. ~~~~~ EDIT: Also, I don't want to ever have JRPG style story telling on a computer - I'd hate it. That's not why I play CPRGs. If I want that, I play JRPGs. I'm not saying one style can't be put on another system, but I don't want them to replace each other (though JRPGs desperately need a new story if they are going to tell you it with no interaction!). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Also wrong. The Echoes will defen and/or kill all that hear them. The Jedi say this, Kreia says this, Traya says this, even the loading messages say this. Edit: And Kreia uses the Force like she would a poison. She uses it in the hope of finding a 'cure' to it, and the Echoes were that supposed cure. However, it just served as a beacon, which is what Malachor V intended to do in the first place. :ph34r:

Wrong. It says in several other places, too. It was to destroy/turn the 'weaker' of the Republic Army, as well as wipe out the Mandalorians.

They're closing the forums...

You two make a valid point. The Exile survived it, but he was strong enough. Kreia is much more of a Witch than a Sith Lord, because she does not seek power, but Revenge. There is one key flaw in Kreia's knowledge. She assumes that the Force controls all, but Handmaiden and Visas point out that there is ALWAYS choice. Handmaiden stresses this early on, but if you're a male PC, then the Meditation scene with Visas also applies this principle.

With Sith Lord it says that you may become the Dark Lord at one point. I think that an Acolyte is more of a 'Lone Sith' serving his own purposes... Anybody wanna join my Fleet of 'Dancers?'

Isn't there a holocron on Dantooine? Or was that the busted droid?

Mhm Revan is mentioned specifically as not present during the battle, due to getting delayed along with part of forces... possibly on purpose but that's not really the point. The point is, it's your character that makes the final decision to spring the trap and as such responsible for it. It might've been Revan's manioulation that put them in that spot, but the decision itself was 'yours' nonetheless. To try to shift the blame on someone else would be a 'victim of society' cop-out imo. Quite correct, but there's large similarity here; the actions of your character caused simultaneous deaths of many people attuned to the force. The actions of Nihilus in a way did exactly the same -- 'hurt' the force by striking at population in close touch with it. (which btw i don't think was Nihilus' intention, he's just a guy blinded by his hunger and manipulated by Kreia all along... just like she lured him eventually near Telos by actions of another of her pawns) Ahh but the very point Kreia is making throughout the whole game is, how one-sided and often wrong the teachings one gets from the Jedi academy can be... isn't it? To say you don't need to listen to others because you already went through academy is exactly the kind of conceit that's mentioned frequently as the weak point of the Jedi order, and a reason of their fall during the Jedi wars... I don't remember the exact wording, but iirc what she says is something along lines of "And just what do you think you achieved by doing that?" She isn't really 'faulting' you for helping out the bum. If anything, she disapproves apparent lack of forethought on your part -- she wants you to recognize there's no such thing as 'simple actions' and you shouldn't ever do things without consideration how that might affect the big picture. Which again is something that the dumbed down version of the 'Light Side' with its "See someone in need, do their errands for them, don't ever think, that's the *right* way" attitude is clearly lacking. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Kreia's whole purpose is to create echoes. Perhaps by doing the 'right thing' you are conflicting with her plan, which can't be all that bad. Personally, most things that Kreia tells you not to do, are worth doing to try and delay the end result of her Betrayal.