DigitalCrack

It will definitely be a newbie trap and that's no small consideration. New players tend to make choices that are the least intimidating to them which is especially applicable when it comes to spellcasters. If they are forced to choose between spells whose descriptions they can barely understand and two handed style, for example, which gives 20% extra damage, what do you think they would go for? It's one thing if you choose to pass up spells because you're going for a certain build, but it's different when you don't pick spells because you don't know what you're doing. This was obviously never a choice in the first game, and I don't think it should be one here. Some places to start imo for me would be moving weapon styles (two handed, sword and shield, etc..) to proficiencies. then at least non fighter classes could still be proficient with different styles expanding their potential roles at least a little. And the fighter loses nothing by making these general proficiencies imo. Just an idea of where to start.

I know its not as bad as i am about to say but i can turn this around and say its more work upfront. So you if you want a tank you have to got through all skill trees and figure out which class can do that role and then when you come up with the handful that can do that you get to pick between them. Instead of saying oh i like rangers, I like tanks, i want tank ranger let start playing and pick abilities that fit that role. Or i like priest and i like tanks let try that and see what happens. If you did that without looking at all the abilities you would be surprised to find that not a lot of abilities or maybe few to none support that. This is where some general abilities come in handy. I get its not quite this restrictive but this is the direction POE2 is going. I would say it is that restrictive at minimum.

"That said, there should be more than one viable way to play any given class (single or multi)." This is the heart of issue a lot of people have. right now single class is an on rail experience and the only way to play a class outside of one singular role is to multiclass. Edit: which some classes/subs still arent even viable outside their designed role even with multiclassing

So first character (I have liked playing) is a Witch (mage slayer/soul blade). feels great very fun and active build.

Understand the point you make but I dont think it can be denied that its too rigid across the board currently. There is definitely room for a "meet in the middle" compromise that I think could be reached with those who are looking for more single class flexibility.

They have the usual binding roots, marked prey, defensive talent, stalkers link that 'work' in melee (i am actually not sure about this because i havent testing yet them so maybe maybe not just looking at the tree) but no active melee it seems and ye they took wounding shots, im worried about stunning shots . that is basically the melee ability for ranger and was different from other classesI will look again later today but I think even stalkers link is ranged only now too. Marked prey and binding roots is about it for melee and thats only cause they are not weapon dependent. Go through the passives for ranger and I believe they are all tagged "with ranged" Edit: and thats a hard rule not like PoE1 where all of those "ranged" talents still worked with melee.

Thats why I was saying that the stalker sub literally works against itself unless you multiclass.

Yes, wounding shot is greyed out and not selectable in combat unless you have a ranged weapon.. Most everything that isnt pet related active or passive only affects/works with ranged weapons.

If only you could do this. Oh wait. I think you can. EDIT: MULLLLLLTTTTIBALL Sorry. Not without multiclassing though and I think that where the gripe is. Some of us think we should maintained class flexibility AND have multiclassing as an option. That aside multiclassing does not fix issues of rigidity for all the classes. Look at Rangers for instance no reason to ever multiclass them for melee in their current state and one of their subs is geared toward melee despite the class itself having no melee. Its not just the ranger we have a few classes/subclasses that face similar issues..

Yeah I was thinking that we could at least have more talents cross over 3-4 classes if they wont do a general pool. At least that could add some much needed flavor to individual classes.

for the most part everything else tends to play decently well. Once you figure out how it works ha. penetration changes threw me for a loop at first. Really my biggest complaint is the rigidity of classes if not a genral pool then some talents need to be available in other classes. No reason some of the general weapon talents (like two handed style for example) couldnt be shared by 3-4 classes. Right now single class is unbelievably boring and in some cases literally unplayable. That aside there are a lot of posituve aspects just hard to care about them considering the class system currently undermines all the good..

One thing to add is we actually have some subclasses that actually hurt themselves unless you multiclass as a result of how rigidly classes are structured. For example look at the stalker subclass for ranger. designed to incentivise melee for ranger yet ranger HAS NO MELEE. the subclass forces you to be closer to your pet at all times for extra bonuses or you suffer bonded grief yet when you inspect the stalker tree (which is identical to base ranger) its all ranged passives and actives and then pet stuff... A single classed stalker is basically pointless unless you multiclass. Not saying we need PoE1 carbon copy but there should be a general pool of some sort or at least shared general abilities that are shared by multiple class trees. Edit: Is there a reason, for example, that multiple classes couldnt share some of the weapon based general talents. Likesure fighter has access to all of them basically (which makes sense) but then why couldnt some of the other classe get some of them here and there. like barbarians also getting two handed style or rangers getting dual wield talent? Is there a reason that at least some talent couldnt be shared by 3-4 classes instead of all talent being totally exclusive to a specific class?

Restarted for the 5th time now cause everything feels a bit boring class wise. you cant actually do what you want with any given class without multiclassing and each class idvidually doesnt really have enough abilities to be diverse at all build wise on its own. Ranger's subclasses are pointless and the class itself is the most rigid of all the ones I have tried so far. all the class trees except for a few casters feel very sparse also. So far the new class system is just not impressive at all...

a lot of subclasses feel unfinished imo and a lot basically make no difference from the base class. Ranger is a great example of this. Edit: Impossible to make a melee Ranger without multiclassing and even then you are intentionally disadvantaging yourself by doing so cause nothing from the ranger is even useable in melee...

There is a thread i think talks about the real issue in general. I wonder if this is due to multiclassing and the need to be pragmatic about testing and balancing, now single classes have to suffer because if you want certain functions the game is telling you, you have to multiclass. In one since this feels like they went back on the design philosophy of viable character builds that you come up with. So it seems now if you come up with a character concept you have to find the class to match instead of POE1 where if you like the class lore and abilities you could morph them into different roles and different concepts. But i do get that multiclassing was meant to fix this issue. This is also why i dont really like multiclassing because it feel forced now and the one class i am really worried about multiclassing is ranger due to animal maybe not being strong enough later in game but that can be balanced also. I am sure i will prob find it fun. it just odd. it did look like there was a lot of animal abilities in the twitch stream i saw and we also dont see the high level abilities so there are those left also The problem for me being that ranger brings literally nothing to a melee build worth taking at this point... so no reason to ever multiclass it that way.

so not sure if its by design or they are not really finished but neither the base ranger or any subs have useable melee abilities. Super disapointed considering it was specifically mentioned that general rangers would be melee capable and that even a subclass would be focused on it. All not true in the beta at least. Edit: for example Wounding Shot is ranged only (was useable in melee PoE1) all the active abilities that aren't a pet active are ranged only. Good portion of the passives are ranged only. At this point I am hoping the class and subs are unfinished.

Six previously all-class talents became fighter-exclusive now. I would expect rangers to get access to Quick Switch as well. Also PoE1 had racial-slaying talents that could fit rangers nicely. (Avenger ability of Sylvan heroes from HOMM5 anyone?) Meanwhile druid and wizard could get access to elemental talents. For example I haven't noticed Scion of Flame, Heart of the Storm, Spirit of Decay and Secrets of Rime anywhere. It would be a pity if they were just... removed. They only show up to level 5 for beta. So maybe most rangers new stuff is above 5. All the rangers modals got put onto weapons so was surprised that it didnt look like any of them got replaced.

was actually bummed out by the generic rangers tree. hopefully the subclasses actually make some changes to the tree.

kind along the line of what Lephys is saying. You lose all the nuance and extra depth that constitution could bring if utilized correcting by combining it with strength. If we had just three stats for pillars 1 I think people would be suprised at how much would be affected. A lot of smaller nuanced attribute checks for different events and conversations would just disappear that all together would fundementally change the way the game felt/played. Its an aspect I actually hope they capitalize on more in deadfire.

Wait... it sounds like they are still in. Because you need the proficiency talent to unlock the use of a modal.Proficiencies are replacing the weapon focus talents. We know that there are no plans for proficiencies to give generic stat boosts to the weapon, weapons are what they are and proficiencies simply open up modals for use with the weapon. We know that a single point investment gets you a modal for the chosen weapon. outside that nothing has been said that I am aware of thats new detail wise. By that I mean we don't if there is more than one proficiency level for each weapon or if its just a one and done type thing, for example. Alright, but it doesn't seem like any fiddly bits are going away, it's just a different sort of focus to invest in. It is a more interesting way of doing it in my opinion. However I am assuming/hoping that weapons will have more then one level of investment. Not that it needs to be a ton but 3-4 would be nice if possible.

Wait... it sounds like they are still in. Because you need the proficiency talent to unlock the use of a modal. Proficiencies are replacing the weapon focus talents. We know that there are no plans for proficiencies to give generic stat boosts to the weapon, weapons are what they are and proficiencies simply open up modals for use with the weapon. We know that a single point investment gets you a modal for the chosen weapon. outside that nothing has been said that I am aware of thats new detail wise. By that I mean we don't if there is more than one proficiency level for each weapon or if its just a one and done type thing, for example.

There have been a handfull of games that accomplish both freedom and deep story with big affectual choices. My biggest gripe with Tyranny was that it was too linear and too short. I like having lots of other content to enjoy especially if I like the game. I dont like feeling like I am on rails when playing a game and even tyranny with it choices was essentially just a "choose your rail" experience. There wasnt the excitement that comes with exploring and stumbling across ruins that turns into a full blown quest to hunt and slay a wraith thats been plauging the nearby village.. I mean thats what makes rpg worlds feel real, to me anyway.

I think it would be cool if a new class came about as a result of Animancy. Would be a cool growth aspect of the PoE universe where you could have a science based class and subclasses that only exist as a result of new tech from Animancy breakthroughs. Edit: This way you avoid narrowing Animancy down to a class when its such a broad subject in PoE.

Wasn't there a similar "gotcha" in MotB? "Spirit Eater" malus would grow and grow to the point where even the time that passed while trying to get somewhere to rest would kill you? Now PoEII offers: get in fight-->die--->get injured-->rest to become uninjured--->rested too many times now a malus--->profit? I know, I know, the answer is to die less. Still seems vauge as only the "best food is expensive or rare" meaning there could be common food that's plentiful that only heals injuries. Or does only the rare foods heal injuries in which case whats the point of resting at that point if I have to spend thousands simply to get the basic benefit of what resting should do? It doesn't elaborate on these questions.. I could care less about rest bonses being finite but curing injuries I highly doubt will be limited to such an extent.

No one is forcing you to play class/attribute/equipment combinations that are insufficiency traditional. So there's no reason to prevent everyone else from being creative. If I want to play a fighter/rogue with light armour and a greatsword and more dexterity than might, which is precisely what I'll do when Deadfire comes out, I'd like it if the game didn't get in my way. Imo I think the current setup already reflects your stats in your equipment without gating you. More might means you do more damage with a great sword where as more Dex means you can handle the sword better/faster even though you don't hit as hard. Is it a perfect translation.. no, but its more than acceptable to me for the creativity it allows in builds as opposed to gating equipment behind stat thresholds (which wouldn't bother me just less desirable). I have a great real life example of Dex verses Strength, I play in a few softball rec leagues over the summer and without fail always end up with a few muscle head types who can never figure out why all their muscle doesn't get them a home run and yet I can go up and crush it over often with the same Bat they use and I am regular joe type who doesn't work out at all and has no visible muscle. That's mostly cause hitting a home run is all about bat speed and not the strength of swing. I know how to handle the bat so that it works for me instead of relying on the power of my arms to carry the ball plus its easier for me to do so without a lot of muscle getting in the way. Point being that a weak character could still use a larger sword effectively, that effectiveness just stems from something other than the strength he can apply to an individual swing. Edit: obviously there is a common sense aspect to this and that yes if you have the strength of a three year old it would be impossible to hold a great sword. But this all depends on what zero represents in pillars for stats. Meaning if zero in might means you are regular guys strong or if ten is considered normal guys strong, basically which number is the baseline for normal person might? PoE never really establishes this.