Edér: What happened?

[totorotori]

So this topic has been on my mind. And I feel silly that my first post will be in this topic. About Eder, who was one of my favorite characters in the games. Like I love Obsidian, I still love Pillars and will still play them and love the fandom. This fandom is a wonderful and fun place

But I would have to say this treatment to the Eder fans especially who wanted to romance him, its a kick in the stomach. Like I would get he moved on and met someone but the person was the lady from the books who told him to move on.

I think the rejections were harsh especially on Orlans. It felt like that fear when you get into a fandom and love a pairing only to be mocked about it and insulted. It really upsets me because artist friends (who were Eder fans) helped out the fig with basically drawing and posting art everyday to help get to the romance breaking goal and they super passionate and also their art is seen on the Obsidian twitch channel often and loved. A good bit of it was Eder/Watcher art. It feels like an insult to them and to add injury to the insult after the game was released and the Eder unromancable was known their watcher/Eder implied fan art is still  seen on the streams. Like I am not saying fans should be entitled and they should get what they want but I feel like how this was handled was very upsetting. Having him not a romance is okay but having it done like this is not okay.

Sorry for the rant. I still love everyone and hope for the best

[Mari]

So this topic has been on my mind. And I feel silly that my first post will be in this topic. About Eder, who was one of my favorite characters in the games. Like I love Obsidian, I still love Pillars and will still play them and love the fandom. This fandom is a wonderful and fun place

But I would have to say this treatment to the Eder fans especially who wanted to romance him, its a kick in the stomach. Like I would get he moved on and met someone but the person was the lady from the books who told him to move on.

I think the rejections were harsh especially on Orlans. It felt like that fear when you get into a fandom and love a pairing only to be mocked about it and insulted. It really upsets me because artist friends (who were Eder fans) helped out the fig with basically drawing and posting art everyday to help get to the romance breaking goal and they super passionate and also their art is seen on the Obsidian twitch channel often and loved. A good bit of it was Eder/Watcher art. It feels like an insult to them and to add injury to the insult after the game was released and the Eder unromancable was known their watcher/Eder implied fan art is still  seen on the streams. Like I am not saying fans should be entitled and they should get what they want but I feel like how this was handled was very upsetting. Having him not a romance is okay but having it done like this is not okay.

Sorry for the rant. I still love everyone and hope for the best

Yeah, one of those artists campaigning for the game is how I found out about POE1 in the first place. Years later, shes also the reason I donated to the crowdfunding. I have a policy of waiting until the bugs are patched before buying a game, but she was really passionate about Eder and the relationship goal so I thought "why not?". Companions are a big part of gaming for me so I was excited about the "deeper relationships", plus smooching Eder and Pallegina was a bonus. I guess neither of us was expecting Obsidian to be so spiteful about it. 

 

Most of it has already been hashed out, but I was listening to the companion dialogues on youtube and heard the ones if you let Bearn live (I let him die in mine. Sorry, kid). Its one thing to make Eder not a romance, but damn. After everything, did they really have to make him ditch the Watcher no matter what you say? Even if you tell him you need his help he would still rather bug off to raise the son of a woman who didn't want anything to do with him... Low blow, Obsidian. 

[Galagraphia]

To be fair, I think fanart's contribution to the commercial succeess of both games wasn't too big. But seeing shippy art displayed and those valentine's cards - it was kind of misleading. I thought that since these 3 characters return, there will be romance options with them if we reach that goal. Because it made sense - we are already friends and all. We have things to talk about, we know each other, etc. And then in the game Edér drops everything he was doing, buys a ship, sails with you across the world. And then some of the companions make shippy comments about Edér and the Watcher? That definitely builds up expectations. And then he goes "nope, never liked you that way, I'm off to adopt that dude, bye!" That kind of feels like a blow indeed.

 

But now I'm also thinking about the Watcher's interactions with Edér. I remember I had an option to hold Tekehu's hand when he was scared or something; there was also an option to wipe the dirt off Xoti's cheek (and ten million options to flirt with her). But you can't even pat Edér on his back in a friendly way. That's just one example. What I mean is that the Watcher doesn't get options to show Edér that they really care about him or are interested in him. I see him discussing things that he feels strongly about with Pallegina or Xoti. Like that he wants to have his own family and children, and that's why he got so excited about the possibility of having a son, and how that is not going to happen. There's no option to be really supportive, even as a friend, show him that he can talk to the Watcher about it, tell him his emotions are valid and you understand, give him a hug. No wonder he doesn't want to date that cold woman. But that's not how the relationship between the Watcher and Edér was in the first game. I rememebr we could have a talk where he was processing his feelings about why his brother fought for Eothas, and we could voice our opinion and influence his life is a meaningful way. This time the Watcher doesn't get any options like that. And the Watcher also doesn't get options to be more light-hearted and maybe even flirty, like with other companions. And I have a problem with these options being denied to the player. Because the way I was roleplaying my Watcher - she'd give Edér all the hugs, bake him a pie and give him a puppy. Just to make him feel really loved and appreciated, even as a friend. She would let him know that he already has a family - that's Watcher, Steward, and Cosmo And Aloth.

[Aridea]

I assume the hand-holding, hugging and touching interactions are all with romanceable companions. All non-romance don't have, or never had these options.

Funny I remember in first Pillars there is only one option and its with Aloth, where you are given a choice to support him by holding his hand in the Sanitarium.

And Eder is actually more touchy to the Watcher than the other way around (wakes Watcher up in pillars 1, pokes in deadfire, etc.). I think he is the only one which has some physical interactions described in the dialogue outside of romance.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Aridea

[handsomenat]

My Watcher could hold Tekehu's hand (twice even) and they weren't in a relationship.

[Aridea]

My Watcher could hold Tekehu's hand (twice even) and they weren't in a relationship.

 

The options show up regardless of you being in a relationship or not, i.e. I had too many with Xoti to the point that I booted her out of the party and never looked back. What what I mean is that they are present in the first place only with companions who can be romanced. You can't hold Pallegina's hand, she'd probably impale you with that sword of yours.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Aridea

[Galagraphia]

What what I mean is that they are present in the first place only with companions who can be romanced. You can't hold Pallegina's hand, she'd probably impale you with that sword of yours.

 

I find this limitation artificial. Especially with Edér, because I think if the Watcher had not been restricted to be emotionally cold towards him, Edér would not have felt like there's no place for him anywhere. Besides, if there's an option to ask Edér about feelings, then it sort of implies that the Watcher may have feelings for him too, but you never get to show this in conversations with Edér. It removes the possibility to roleplay your character as romantically interested in Edér. It was mentioned before that the game seems very aggressive about not letting the player romance Edér, and eliminating all options to show any affection for him is part of it. I guess it's because considering how easily he gets attached to people, had the Watcher shown their feelings and that they care about Edér, he could have at least get a thought that dating the Watcher might be a good thing? I mean, Edér wants to have a wife and babies and settle down. In the first Pillars there was a way to roleplay the Watcher as someone who wanted the same thing. Edér would get along very well with that kind of  a Watcher, I think. Was that option blocked because they want to bring the Watcher back in the next game, but don't want to deal with a bunch of Teylecg babies?

[Aridea]

Was that option blocked because they want to bring the Watcher back in the next game, but don't want to deal with a bunch of Teylecg babies?

 

Eh, I think there can't be talk of any babies for the Watcher in the foreseeable future. With the way things are going. No rest for the wicked and all that.

The Watcher is just too... abnormal, and seems to attract abnormal. Not to mention status quo had been broken.

 

Not saying I disagree with you. I think Eder was just written in a way that you are not supposed to show much physical affection towards him. Neither bad nor good imho, just is.

[Galagraphia]

Not saying I disagree with you. I think Eder was just written in a way that you are not supposed to show much physical affection towards him. Neither bad nor good imho, just is.

That's exactly what I have a problem with: the Watcher in conversations with Edér is written to be somewhat emotionally detached, and this limits the player's options to roleplay their character the way they see fit. It feels like an artificially imposed restriction, like an invisible wall.

[Aridea]

That's exactly what I have a problem with: the Watcher in conversations with Edér is written to be somewhat emotionally detached, and this limits the player's options to roleplay their character the way they see fit. It feels like an artificially imposed restriction, like an invisible wall.

 

But what if he WAS written with various physical interactions? Wouldn't you be more upset he wasn't a romance in the end? Because this would lead you on even more. I mean there are already so many disappointed fans of his out there, this would just make it worse. Besides no other non-romance companion has physical interactions, i.e. Pallegina, or Serafen for that matter as far as I recall. You can flirt with him but I don't remember if there is any touching. Thus, if you included more roleplaying options for Eder as a non-romance you'd have to include it for others as well for fairness sake, again Pallegina (regardless whether they respond in kind). Which would be counter-productive imho. I love Eder, I really do, but I don't see why one companion should get special treatment over the others.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Aridea

[Verde]

Why does a Night Market Eder dislike Xoti? That bothers me. Luckily I always go the mayor variant.

[CENIC]

 

 

Was that option blocked because they want to bring the Watcher back in the next game, but don't want to deal with a bunch of Teylecg babies?

 

I get that everyone has their own interpretation of what a "hero" in a "fantasy" game should be, I really do.

 

But do you REALLY think a hero who runs around getting into mortal danger on a regular basis to save the world can be a good mother?

 

Yes, yes, we have Vela. But even kidnapping adopting her was NOT framed as the best decision. And look at what she's learning from Uncle Engrim!

[Celan]

 

That's exactly what I have a problem with: the Watcher in conversations with Edér is written to be somewhat emotionally detached, and this limits the player's options to roleplay their character the way they see fit. It feels like an artificially imposed restriction, like an invisible wall.

 

But what if he WAS written with various physical interactions? Wouldn't you be more upset he wasn't a romance in the end? Because this would lead you on even more. I mean there are already so many disappointed fans of his out there, this would just make it worse. Besides no other non-romance companion has physical interactions, i.e. Pallegina, or Serafen for that matter as far as I recall. You can flirt with him but I don't remember if there is any touching. Thus, if you included more roleplaying options for Eder as a non-romance you'd have to include it for others as well for fairness sake, again Pallegina (regardless whether they respond in kind). Which would be counter-productive imho. I love Eder, I really do, but I don't see why one companion should get special treatment over the others.

 

Pallegina clasps your arm in the final quest (I assume it requires + VTC). She initiates.

 

I would think it weirder if companions who hadn't traveled and suffered and triumphed together didn't hug, or whatever manly gesture you prefer. That's why Eder's story seems weirdly detached.

[Aridea]

I get that everyone has their own interpretation of what a "hero" in a "fantasy" game should be, I really do.

 

But do you REALLY think a hero who runs around getting into mortal danger on a regular basis to save the world can be a good mother?

 

Yes, yes, we have Vela. But even kidnapping adopting her was NOT framed as the best decision. And look at what she's learning from Uncle Engrim!

 

Didn't we also have to kill an innocent good guy for Vela? So its like the worst decision possible. I never took her in the previous playthrouhgs. The only reason I am taking her now is because Deadfire forced my hand by making her adorable.

 

 

Pallegina clasps your arm in the final quest (I assume it requires + VTC). She initiates.

 

I would think it weirder if companions who hadn't traveled and suffered and triumphed together didn't hug, or whatever manly gesture you prefer. That's why Eder's story seems weirdly detached.

 

Yeah and Eder pokes you in the beginning when you wake up.

I meant player-initiated physical interactions. There are none with non-romance companions. You can't take Pallegina's hand any more than you can take Eder's, but you can interact with Xoti, Aloth, Tekehu, and I think Maia.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Aridea

[Celan]

 

I get that everyone has their own interpretation of what a "hero" in a "fantasy" game should be, I really do.

 

But do you REALLY think a hero who runs around getting into mortal danger on a regular basis to save the world can be a good mother?

 

Yes, yes, we have Vela. But even kidnapping adopting her was NOT framed as the best decision. And look at what she's learning from Uncle Engrim!

 

Didn't we also have to kill an innocent good guy for Vela? So its like the worst decision possible. I never took her in the previous playthrouhgs. The only reason I am taking her now is because Deadfire forced my hand by making her adorable.

 

He attacks you. I consider attack with no quarter to be justifiable self defense.

 

And I say the Watcher can shepherd as many lost souls as she wants, be they stray animals, orlan babies being killed by their foster parents, or whatever else they get up to.

[Aridea]

And I say the Watcher can shepherd as many lost souls as she wants, be they stray animals, orlan babies being killed by their foster parents, or whatever else they get up to.

 

Except ghosts don't require any physical maintenance. I agree that having hoards of pets is a bit weird lol but still wouldn't trade my cone cat for anything, or Nemnok, or Concelhaut. 

Taking an infant into the battlefield is wrong though as it requires you to be a full parent. Feeding a baby and changing its diapers is not feeding a cat. Its not supposed to be a toy, but we do kind of treat it as one.

But then the argument goes - its a video game so everything works, I suppose, you can't argue with that.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Aridea

[Celan]

If the Watcher can hire minions to guard her castle, she can hire a nanny or wetnurse. The other question is how Vela survived the destruction of Caed Nua. Maybe she was visiting auntie GM in Dyrford at the time.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Celan

[Mari]

 

 

 

Was that option blocked because they want to bring the Watcher back in the next game, but don't want to deal with a bunch of Teylecg babies?

 

I get that everyone has their own interpretation of what a "hero" in a "fantasy" game should be, I really do.

 

But do you REALLY think a hero who runs around getting into mortal danger on a regular basis to save the world can be a good mother?

 

Yes, yes, we have Vela. But even kidnapping adopting her was NOT framed as the best decision. And look at what she's learning from Uncle Engrim!

 

 

 

 

And I say the Watcher can shepherd as many lost souls as she wants, be they stray animals, orlan babies being killed by their foster parents, or whatever else they get up to.

 

Except ghosts don't require any physical maintenance. I agree that having hoards of pets is a bit weird lol but still wouldn't trade my cone cat for anything, or Nemnok, or Concelhaut. 

Taking an infant into the battlefield is wrong though as it requires you to be a full parent. Feeding a baby and changing its diapers is not feeding a cat. Its not supposed to be a toy, but we do kind of treat it as one.

But then the argument goes - its a video game so everything works, I suppose, you can't argue with that.

 

 

Look, my Watcher is really not interested in being a mom, but to be fair to those who want that, we did apparently spent 5 years after the end of the first game just hanging out in our keep. As far as the Watcher was concerned, they did their duty and had settled down. Why wouldn't some players see this as a good time to have babies or whatever? Not everyone played their Watcher as this big adventurer. You can play the reluctant hero just as easily. 

 

As for the second game, if everyone doesn't get their **** together this could be it. Better pop out those bbys while there are still souls to go around. 

 

Also! If cops and soldiers can be good parents, why cant the Watcher? 

[CENIC]

 

Also! If cops and soldiers can be good parents, why cant the Watcher? 

 

Because cops and soldiers usually have a non-cop/soldier spouse at home to do the child rearing.

[Aridea]

I think the real problem here is the narrative. While its great to have rp options, having kids is probably the most ridiculous one because it is extremely difficult to account for and write in, if you plan to continue the story in future games. So having children, even Vela, is presented as not a very smart option.

 

My Watcher didn't want to be a great adventurer either.

She is a free spirit who dislikes people and civilization, loves to hunt with her wolf, and hates being tied down to anything. As soon as she got her sanity back, she threw everything and left by herself. She couldn't give two figs about Caed Nua. 

But the narrative forces you to be Lady/Lord of the keep and stay there for whooping 5 years. My Watcher would never stay in the Keep, it is too restricting for her. If it was up to me, she would have been in Ixamitl plains by then, or Livings Lands, stalking prey and exploring new horizons.

For every person who wants kids and family for rp reasons, there is someone who just wants to say "**** it, im out" also for rp. You can't account for everything and have to write what makes sense, and a certain type of character that makes sense.

 

So we get something in the middle.

 

(kids would probably only make sense if it was the last game in the series, but we are just starting so...)

Edited June 10, 2018 by Aridea

[Tarlonniel]

Guys, you know how it is. Only male RPG protagonists can have babies, because they can dump 'em with the momma and keep on adventuring.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Tarlonniel

[Aridea]

Guys, you know how it it. Only male RPG protagonists can have babies, because they can dump 'em with the momma and keep on adventuring.

 

Unless you're in Baldur's Gate. Then you just take momma with you and make her fight demon princes and demigods with a baby in her backpack.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Aridea

[Tarlonniel]

Responsible parenting!

 

Of course, I've never run across an RPG which required or expected responsible behavior from the protagonist. Mostly they encourage the opposite.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Tarlonniel

[CENIC]

Ironically, my Watcher would LOVE a bevy of kids. But I am perfectly okay with the designers telling me, "Nope, no happy family life for you."

[Shadenuat]

This is one of the scariest threads I've read after that one on now dead bioware social about Alistair dumping female Wardens because they're dirty forest elves/not nobility.