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The General Level Scaling / Difficulty Thread (not POTD)

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I think Obsidian shall use the builds we post in character builds subforum as prototypes for enemies :p

 

Like what if you meet some Chanter/Paladin enemy as a leader followed by Unbroken tanks and Assassin/Soulblades? It could be pretty challenging.

Edited by dunehunter
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As it stands, for dungeon crawling fans and tactical combat fans, the first game is much better.

 

This game on the other hand is better in everything else: a nicer open world, story, writing and dialogue.

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Also, here's how to fix the resting system:

 

Separate resting into two different types: "FULL REST" and "QUICK REST".

 

If you are anywhere but on your ship or inside of a city inn, you can only quick rest. You have 2 quick rests available, which get fully replenished every time you do a FULL REST.

 

A "quick rest" removes one wound from every character, gives you one point of empowerment on every character, and replenishes one use of "per rest" abilities. You only have 2 quick rests so there's some strategy involved in when to use them.

 

If you run out of QUICK RESTS you have to do a FULL REST either in an inn or on your ship. It resets everything. All your wounds, your empowerment and all your per rest abilities. 

Edited by CarrO

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Seems like when someone mentions "rest" some others immediately think of "Having to rest every two minutes" and like, "Yikes! Please god no!"

 

I also get the impression that factors like counter-based mechanics, full HP regen, and rest buffs lasting essentially permanently until next rest, are there so that resting is as least of a chore as possible. In my first post, I was only pointing out that, the way it is right now, you never have to rest at all, and you get to keep the permanent rest buffs as well as all resources in your stash. I wasn't asking for "Having to rest every two minutes" (funny how someone instantly thought of this). Aside from being a gameplay factor, resting is also a roleplaying factor. To me, having no incentive whatsoever to rest (except to get that cool buff) is a hit to the roleplaying aspect. The fact that your character can get beaten to near unconscious with 1 HP left during a massive encounter, as long as they don't get knocked out, they will simply get all that HP back afterward, no fatigue, no injuries, no nothing, like absolutely nothing happened, just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So maybe not "every two minutes", but at least something like *needing* to rest every 5 encounters or so, yeah?

 

That said, I *have* been enjoying the game, including the combat, and I do find combat fun. I'm just pointing out something that could use some improvement. So take it easy.

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Also, here's how to fix the resting system:

 

Separate resting into two different types: "FULL REST" and "QUICK REST".

 

If you are anywhere but on your ship or inside of a city inn, you can only quick rest. You have 2 quick rests available, which get fully replenished every time you do a FULL REST.

 

A "quick rest" removes one wound from every character, gives you one point of empowerment on every character, and replenishes one use of "per rest" abilities. You only have 2 quick rests so there's some strategy involved in when to use them.

 

If you run out of QUICK RESTS you have to do a FULL REST either in an inn or on your ship. It resets everything. All your wounds, your empowerment and all your per rest abilities. 

 

Or just keep the current system but restrict rest to safe zones (inns, ship) and fully cleared dungeon levels. BG's "You cannot rest here...monsters are about" was one of the few rest mechanics/restrictions that encouraged me to soldier on with an injured/depleted party. The only way to really prevent rest spamming in an area is to fully disable it on a conditional basis, imo.

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Also, here's how to fix the resting system:

 

Separate resting into two different types: "FULL REST" and "QUICK REST".

 

If you are anywhere but on your ship or inside of a city inn, you can only quick rest. You have 2 quick rests available, which get fully replenished every time you do a FULL REST.

 

A "quick rest" removes one wound from every character, gives you one point of empowerment on every character, and replenishes one use of "per rest" abilities. You only have 2 quick rests so there's some strategy involved in when to use them.

 

If you run out of QUICK RESTS you have to do a FULL REST either in an inn or on your ship. It resets everything. All your wounds, your empowerment and all your per rest abilities. 

 

Or just keep the current system but restrict rest to safe zones (inns, ship) and fully cleared dungeon levels. BG's "You cannot rest here...monsters are about" was one of the few rest mechanics/restrictions that encouraged me to soldier on with an injured/depleted party. The only way to really prevent rest spamming in an area is to fully disable it on a conditional basis, imo.

 

Or this yea I agree.

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Also, here's how to fix the resting system:

 

Separate resting into two different types: "FULL REST" and "QUICK REST".

 

If you are anywhere but on your ship or inside of a city inn, you can only quick rest. You have 2 quick rests available, which get fully replenished every time you do a FULL REST.

 

A "quick rest" removes one wound from every character, gives you one point of empowerment on every character, and replenishes one use of "per rest" abilities. You only have 2 quick rests so there's some strategy involved in when to use them.

 

If you run out of QUICK RESTS you have to do a FULL REST either in an inn or on your ship. It resets everything. All your wounds, your empowerment and all your per rest abilities. 

 

Or just keep the current system but restrict rest to safe zones (inns, ship) and fully cleared dungeon levels. BG's "You cannot rest here...monsters are about" was one of the few rest mechanics/restrictions that encouraged me to soldier on with an injured/depleted party. The only way to really prevent rest spamming in an area is to fully disable it on a conditional basis, imo.

 

 

Quick rests: I don't generally like the idea of forcing you to walk back to your ship. It takes you 20s there and 20s back in most places in the game, so you'll probably do it, and it'll just feel like a waste of time.

BG rest: You could always leave almost every dungeon and spam rest, kill some hobgoblins, return to the dungeon fully charged. Only one that comes to mind, I think the Underdark mind flayer dungeon is a no-rest zone and you can't leave untill you've killed the brain. I'd honestly like stuff like that in Deadfire. You'd probably need to make sure there's an autosave before any closed dungeon, and also inform the player that there's no rest to be had.

 

There's quite a bit of yammering about resting, injuries, encounter/rest in this thread.

 

 

 

Believe me, I know, I've played all of Infinity Engine games (and tabletop Forgotten Realms) far too much, as one can probably infer from my forum handle.

 

 

Then again, while comparable on some levels to Pillars, the combat in BG and IWD series is vastly different from the one we have here. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Often in Infinity Engine games it boiled down to hard counters -> hard counters, something which game devs these days avoid I feel. Something like using elemental damage weapons to interrupt Stoneskin mages from casting in case Breach or similar combat protection strips were unavailable, using specific hard counters to Umber Hulks (backstab, Barbarian Rage, Chaotic Commands etc.), having many different damage types available for Skeletons (I guess this is true for some enemies in Pillars as well).

 

While I agree that Mage fights for example would be far more interesting in Pillars if they employed tactics like Contingencies in BG2, and if things were made more difficult this way it'd be absolutely awesome, I fear it'd take far too much time and effort and we'd end up never getting them.

 

I feel PotD is so fundamentally broken at the moment and feels like Story Time.

 

 

I think there's a kind of joy that comes with finding items that make you immune to Hold Person, Charm Person, etc, and that joy comes from the sheer terror that can be inflicted by those abilities.

 

Seeing your favourite character get torn apart by undead while frozen still by a Hold Person spell makes you hate that spell with a passion.

 

Yes I get that these are solved by hard counters, but I actually don't think there's anything wrong with that.

 

Your immunity-to-Hold Person item doesn't protect you against a dragon's breath attack, for example.

 

This kind of encounter design may well revolve around simply using the right tools for the job, but even this is ultimately more enjoyable than hitting a block of flesh again and again for 3 mins.

 

That said I'm happy to hear alternatives.

 

 

I mean maybe it's not great filling the game with stuff you need to hard counter, but some of it would still be nice. Knowledge is power. Getting rekt by the above mentioned mind flayers, then going through your spell books and items wondering what you're going to do, coming up with a solution and gibbing those brain sucking octopus faces feels pretty damn good. I like how there are so many thing to learn in those games. Also:

-Weapon inefficent. Weapon inefficient. Weapon inefficient.

-Imprisoned. Imprisoned. Imprisoned. Imprisoned. Imprisoned. Imprisoned. "Huh.. Ummh.."

-Now that you're late into the game and you have learned to use all your spells and have come to rely on them, how about they just don't work in the next few demon filled rooms?

-Aec'Letec healing guys at the end of BG1:Totsc

-Demon in Unseeing Eye you have to heal to kill.

-Sendai statues (nothing much to this, except SHE JUST KEEPS ON COMING)

 

It's like getting a puzzle instead of a standard encounter. Reloading is usually involved, but atleast they make you stop and think for a change.

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Seems like when someone mentions "rest" some others immediately think of "Having to rest every two minutes" and like, "Yikes! Please god no!"

 

I also get the impression that factors like counter-based mechanics, full HP regen, and rest buffs lasting essentially permanently until next rest, are there so that resting is as least of a chore as possible. In my first post, I was only pointing out that, the way it is right now, you never have to rest at all, and you get to keep the permanent rest buffs as well as all resources in your stash. I wasn't asking for "Having to rest every two minutes" (funny how someone instantly thought of this). Aside from being a gameplay factor, resting is also a roleplaying factor. To me, having no incentive whatsoever to rest (except to get that cool buff) is a hit to the roleplaying aspect. The fact that your character can get beaten to near unconscious with 1 HP left during a massive encounter, as long as they don't get knocked out, they will simply get all that HP back afterward, no fatigue, no injuries, no nothing, like absolutely nothing happened, just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So maybe not "every two minutes", but at least something like *needing* to rest every 5 encounters or so, yeah?

 

That said, I *have* been enjoying the game, including the combat, and I do find combat fun. I'm just pointing out something that could use some improvement. So take it easy.

 

This a million times. It's such a bummer to me that you can barely survive an encounter but as soon as you kill that last enemy, poof, you're back to being at your very best. Losing *that* sense of attrition was a bigger hit to the game for me than the straight up mechanical ones. 

 

That said, for people who say that you can abuse per-rest camping, I mean... you can abuse per-encounter as well. I completely broke a lot of the high-level encounters 

(to the point where enemies didn't even get to touch my party) with Wizard spells over and over again, and there would've been no way to do that with a per-rest system except if I was insane enough to sail back to port go get more resting supplies every couple of battles.

 

But yep, for me the biggest loss of per-rest stuff is just for the feels honestly. That my casters can unleash the holy fires of hell like it's nothing for each single battle, over and over again. Theoretically, knowing that a player should have a full arsenal for each encounter would make it all way easier to balance but... for me it sucks a lot of flavor out of the system, it feels boring.

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Also, here's how to fix the resting system:

 

Separate resting into two different types: "FULL REST" and "QUICK REST".

 

If you are anywhere but on your ship or inside of a city inn, you can only quick rest. You have 2 quick rests available, which get fully replenished every time you do a FULL REST.

 

A "quick rest" removes one wound from every character, gives you one point of empowerment on every character, and replenishes one use of "per rest" abilities. You only have 2 quick rests so there's some strategy involved in when to use them.

 

If you run out of QUICK RESTS you have to do a FULL REST either in an inn or on your ship. It resets everything. All your wounds, your empowerment and all your per rest abilities. 

 

Unless it also locks you in to or forces you to reset the dungeon you're currently in it's pointless. You haven't added genuine challenge if the only thing between you and a 'Full Rest' is load screens and a walk, you've just added busy work.

 

A game mechanic should never rely on the player's dread of load screens for it to work.

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Seems like when someone mentions "rest" some others immediately think of "Having to rest every two minutes" and like, "Yikes! Please god no!"

 

I also get the impression that factors like counter-based mechanics, full HP regen, and rest buffs lasting essentially permanently until next rest, are there so that resting is as least of a chore as possible. In my first post, I was only pointing out that, the way it is right now, you never have to rest at all, and you get to keep the permanent rest buffs as well as all resources in your stash. I wasn't asking for "Having to rest every two minutes" (funny how someone instantly thought of this). Aside from being a gameplay factor, resting is also a roleplaying factor. To me, having no incentive whatsoever to rest (except to get that cool buff) is a hit to the roleplaying aspect. The fact that your character can get beaten to near unconscious with 1 HP left during a massive encounter, as long as they don't get knocked out, they will simply get all that HP back afterward, no fatigue, no injuries, no nothing, like absolutely nothing happened, just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So maybe not "every two minutes", but at least something like *needing* to rest every 5 encounters or so, yeah?

 

That said, I *have* been enjoying the game, including the combat, and I do find combat fun. I'm just pointing out something that could use some improvement. So take it easy.

 

This a million times. It's such a bummer to me that you can barely survive an encounter but as soon as you kill that last enemy, poof, you're back to being at your very best. Losing *that* sense of attrition was a bigger hit to the game for me than the straight up mechanical ones. 

 

That said, for people who say that you can abuse per-rest camping, I mean... you can abuse per-encounter as well. I completely broke a lot of the high-level encounters 

(to the point where enemies didn't even get to touch my party) with Wizard spells over and over again, and there would've been no way to do that with a per-rest system except if I was insane enough to sail back to port go get more resting supplies every couple of battles.

 

But yep, for me the biggest loss of per-rest stuff is just for the feels honestly. That my casters can unleash the holy fires of hell like it's nothing for each single battle, over and over again. Theoretically, knowing that a player should have a full arsenal for each encounter would make it all way easier to balance but... for me it sucks a lot of flavor out of the system, it feels boring.

 

 

I think the intent was that you didn't spend 80% of fights deliberately not using most of the tools at your disposal. The per rest Empowers would then take the place of your traditional big bad saved up spell.

 

It was a neat solution I think (though I don't think Empowers should be able to give you back resources) but like so much of the combat it is currently rendered obsolete by the absence of difficulty.

 

I think it's hard to judge the combat mechanics with the current level of difficulty. It wouldn't be any different with a full Per Rest system at the moment because using abilities in every non-boss fight is entirely optional.

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I have level scaling all on, and imo it is not scaling downwards properly, as I get into fights with no difficulty indicator that end up taking forever. I do no damage, constantly miss and the mages have top tier spells (all attacks are miss or no pen and the mages use arcane reflection). It's not really scaled if they only have lower level hp and I'd prefer to know before I get into tedious fights like that.


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