[ENDING SPOILERS] The ending of Deadfire and what it means for The Lore

[Veevoir]

 

 

Also, the giant skeletons at the base of The Wheel with a few missing was an interesting detail, thoughts?

 

That's actually pretty easy - those are the bodies of gods. It is said in one of those conversations with them that gods used to have physical form. And you also see a body of one in White March.

[Vath]

 

 

 

Also, the giant skeletons at the base of The Wheel with a few missing was an interesting detail, thoughts?

That's actually pretty easy - those are the bodies of gods. It is said in one of those conversations with them that gods used to have physical form. And you also see a body of one in White March.

 

I thought that was it. Just thought it was interesting that all their bodies were arranged around The Wheel. Where they like that from the beginning, or had they returned there after deciding to give them up? What about the unknown god-corpses, could one of the gods cause some mischief with that?

[Lexi]

Honestly, this game goes into the pile of games where "main character might as well stayed at home, cause he changed nothing meaningful in the end" 

 

I felt the same way. You really had very little impact (Okay, no impact) during the main quest up until the final conversation where you can decide some minor details. Comparing that to the first game, it felt like there was a lot more going on with the main quest. But perhaps just because it felt more personal given the whole awakening storyline. The side content felt like the main driving force in Deadfire. Not that that is a bad thing. But in general Deadfire like a long prologue a Pillars 3.

[Alot]

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/173973262826/pillars-of-eternity-2-spoilers-as-i-understand

 

deusexbrockina asked:

[Pillars of Eternity 2 Spoilers]: As I understand it, The Wheel and the process of reincarnation was a creation of the Engwithans, made in tandem with their creation of the gods. What I'm not clear on is what the state of the cosmos was before that-- how were kith born with souls in the time of the ancient Huana and Engwithans, without The Wheel to funnel souls into bodies? Am I missing something that I should've picked up in-game?

 

PILLARS OF ETERNITY II: DEADFIRE SPOILERS INSIDE

I will only refer to information that is in published Pillars material (games and sourcebooks). 

I do not believe that anyone in Pillars II discusses what the world/the In-Between/the Beyond was like before the apotheosis of the Engwithans/creation of the gods/activation of Ukaizo.  

However, Od Nua (in Pillars I) does reference the Beyond/the Wheel existing prior to the apotheosis.  He does this indirectly: Od Nua was an Engwithan and all of the other Engwithans disappeared after the apotheosis, which followed his downfall.  The purpose of building the adra statue was to create a vessel that could house Maros Nua’s soul, pulled out of the Beyond.  Od Nua did this because he did not believe his son’s soul would be “properly” reincarnated.

So, how did reincarnation work before the gods/Ukaizo?  That is not detailed, except that it was presumably not as it is now – otherwise the Engiwthans and Huana would not have built Ukaizo.  Ukaizo’s machine is a switchboard for souls, what the gods use to manage the process.  Breaking it breaks that process, but still does not indicate how it worked before it existed.

Make of it what you will. 

 

My own take on the ending: I did not find the ending particularly confusing; the final confrontation did seem quite abrupt. I wasn't particularly dismayed by the main character's inability to dissuade Eothas from his intentions because I thought the notion of changing his mind to be hopelessly naive. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Alot

[Aramintai]

Somebody asked Josh about the Wheel/reincarnation before the Engwithans:

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/173973262826/pillars-of-eternity-2-spoilers-as-i-understand

 

Looks like Eothas broke something, but something was there before but worked differently, nobody knows how  . That's not what the gods have said in the game though, and it's weird that people have to go to the designer devs to get plot explanations.

[Tarlonniel]

Huh. So things will just go back to how they originally worked? But why, then, are the gods worried about the death of the world? Unless the original system was entirely manual and that knowledge was lost, but that would make no sense.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Tarlonniel

[Alot]

Looks like Eothas broke something, but something was there before but worked differently, nobody knows how  . That's not what the gods have said in the game though, and it's weird that people have to go to the designer devs to get plot explanations.

 

What did the gods say in game that contradicts what Josh said?

[Aramintai]

Huh. So things will just go back to how they originally worked? But why, then, are the gods worried about the death of the world? Unless the original system was entirely manual and that knowledge was lost, but that would make no sense.

Yea, they were really freaked out about it. Maybe they were lying though or maybe they just don't have a clue, but that would be weird since they're Engwithans made gods, they should have all the knowledge.

[Aramintai]

 

Looks like Eothas broke something, but something was there before but worked differently, nobody knows how  . That's not what the gods have said in the game though, and it's weird that people have to go to the designer devs to get plot explanations.

 

What did the gods say in game that contradicts what Josh said?

 

They've said that with the Wheel broken souls will go to the Beyond but won't reincarnate and sooner or later all of Eora will be lifeless. And Eothas breaks the Wheel as a mortal trial for the kith - overcome it by fixing it, with or without the help of the gods, or perish. Josh implies that the machine was there simply for the gods to manipulate the process, with it broken gods won't be able to do so anymore and it will be...more chaotic maybe?

Edited May 17, 2018 by Aramintai

[Lexi]

Huh. So things will just go back to how they originally worked? But why, then, are the gods worried about the death of the world? Unless the original system was entirely manual and that knowledge was lost, but that would make no sense.

 

The gods could simply not have all the information, or are lying to the Watcher and are less worried about the world, and more about themselves. But that doesn't seem like it would fit for all the gods personalities.

[Alot]

 

 

Looks like Eothas broke something, but something was there before but worked differently, nobody knows how  . That's not what the gods have said in the game though, and it's weird that people have to go to the designer devs to get plot explanations.

 

What did the gods say in game that contradicts what Josh said?

 

They've said that with the Wheel broken souls will go to the Beyond but won't reincarnate and sooner or later all of Eora will be lifeless. Josh implies that the machine was there for the gods to manipulate the process, with it broken gods won't be able to do so anymore and it will be...more chaotic maybe?

Again, how does that contradict anything that Josh said? He only discusses the state of things before the disappearance of the Engwithans.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Alot

[Aramintai]

 

 

 

Looks like Eothas broke something, but something was there before but worked differently, nobody knows how  . That's not what the gods have said in the game though, and it's weird that people have to go to the designer devs to get plot explanations.

 

What did the gods say in game that contradicts what Josh said?

 

They've said that with the Wheel broken souls will go to the Beyond but won't reincarnate and sooner or later all of Eora will be lifeless. Josh implies that the machine was there for the gods to manipulate the process, with it broken gods won't be able to do so anymore and it will be...more chaotic maybe?

Again, how does that contradict anything that Josh said? He only discusses the state of things before the disappearance of the Engwithans.

 

It's a contradiction in the game lore. People somehow lived on Eora before the Wheel for untold generations and didn't die out, but here the gods are saying that everyone is screwed now with the Wheel broken and will die out. Earlier lore said that reincarnation was natural on Eora, but here it says that it is not and was created by Engwithans. I appreciate Josh giving us some meta knowledge, but it is very poorly presented in the game itself.

[Alot]

It's a contradiction in the game lore.

I do not think it is a contradiction, rather a lack of elaboration.

 

People somehow lived on Eora before the Wheel for untold generations and didn't die out, but here the gods are saying that everyone is screwed now with the Wheel broken and will die out. Earlier lore said that reincarnation was natural on Eora, but here it says that it is not and was created by Engwithans.

Josh does imply in the first line of the last paragraph of his Tumblr post that reincarnation existed prior to being "regulated" by the gods. But if that is the case, it does not necessarily mean that - without the Wheel in place - the process of reincarnation will be restored to its Pre-Engwithan form. 

 

Let's use a terribly flawed analogy; think of the original process of reincarnation as a river and the Wheel as a dam, constraining its flow. If the dam were to be removed, the river's flow would not immediately return to its original state. In fact, the river's flow may never return to its original state; as time passed, the shape of the river adapted to the presence of the dam. 

 

If there's even a hint of similarity between the analogy and the way metaphysics in Pillars of Eternity work, then the Wheel may have affected the process of reincarnation as the dam affected the river. The Wheel was a disturbance to the process of reincarnation, but it's sudden disappearance or destruction will not bring back the natural process of reincarnation.

 

I appreciate Josh giving us some meta knowledge, but it is very poorly presented in the game itself.

Agreed.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Alot

[morhilane]

 

 

 

 

Looks like Eothas broke something, but something was there before but worked differently, nobody knows how  . That's not what the gods have said in the game though, and it's weird that people have to go to the designer devs to get plot explanations.

 

What did the gods say in game that contradicts what Josh said?

 

They've said that with the Wheel broken souls will go to the Beyond but won't reincarnate and sooner or later all of Eora will be lifeless. Josh implies that the machine was there for the gods to manipulate the process, with it broken gods won't be able to do so anymore and it will be...more chaotic maybe?

Again, how does that contradict anything that Josh said? He only discusses the state of things before the disappearance of the Engwithans.

 

It's a contradiction in the game lore. People somehow lived on Eora before the Wheel for untold generations and didn't die out, but here the gods are saying that everyone is screwed now with the Wheel broken and will die out. Earlier lore said that reincarnation was natural on Eora, but here it says that it is not and was created by Engwithans. I appreciate Josh giving us some meta knowledge, but it is very poorly presented in the game itself.

 

There are no contradictions. Josh confirms what was said in POE1: reincarnation happened before the gods in some forms. He even use the example of Od Nua, an Engwithan, trying to have his son reincarnate into a proper vessel because there was no gods around to do so. There are no information on how that worked in POE1, only that it happened and that the Beyond existed.

 

What you are complaining about is that the gods are either clueless about how it worked before them, lying to save their own asses because they are the ones that depends on the artificial system or/and what Eothas did broke both the artificial and natural systems. Eora gods aren't omniscient entities with all the knowledge of the universe, they are artificial and pre-programmed with specific duties. They can't even see people with damaged souls.

 

And lets not forget that Ondra loves to flush any knowledge of what was prior to the gods or how they came to be into the toilet or via moon throwing.

Edited May 17, 2018 by morhilane

[soraela]

I agree that we have to consider that not all the resources that explain how reincarnation may not be reliable sources. Much like an 'unreliable narrator' perspective, there are books,stories and people telling their own spin of how things happened and I think that was intentional (so we can find out what the real facts are)

 

Its totally possible the writers messed up on their parts but I think the inconsistencies are also because its kind of like how anything old passed through time will almost always be changed from person to person and/or perverted for their own purposes. I mean the gods haven't exactly been forthright and they were still mortals at some point. The time before them they may consider insignificant because they are the ones that essentially re purposed life itself.

[Aramintai]

What you are complaining about is that the gods are either clueless about how it worked before them, lying to save their own asses because they are the ones that depends on the artificial system or/and what Eothas did broke both the artificial and natural systems. Eora gods aren't omniscient entities with all the knowledge of the universe, they are artificial and pre-programmed with specific duties. They can't even see people with damaged souls.

 

And lets not forget that Ondra loves to flush any knowledge of what was prior to the gods or how they came to be into the toilet or via moon throwing.

 

That's a lot one has to assume about the gods without backing of anything substantial in the game. So far the gods are the only source of lore regarding the matter. Sure, there is no way to corroborate their info, but I don't think they were lying to the Watcher, because they sounded pretty sure of what they were saying and there was no real reason to spin lies in such an elaborate muppet show before the Watcher - the situation was very dire for everyone and the Watcher powerless to do anything about it anyway. I agree they're no omniscient and may have been programmed to not know something, but so far it looks like they know everything Engwithans knew because they are Engwithans in a way.

 

In any case, it's not our job to headcanon plot holes and explain retcons - it was supposed to be devs job and they did it poorly in the game. I hope they will elaborate on it more if there will be future installments. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Aramintai

[Greensleeve]

The gods are literally reliant on the Wheel for their continued existence. There is every reason to believe they'd want the Watcher to believe the end of the Wheel is the end of the world. 

 

I'm also really puzzled by the assertion that the gods "should know." There is no reason to believe this. Quite the opposite. There's only really reason to believe the gods know what the Engwithan's knew and nothing else. And even that is... anything but clear. They only really seem to know of things they've personally experienced, or things that are part of their domain. And Berath's domain is the Wheel. There is no reason to accept that they'd know anything about reincarnation without the Wheel. 

 

So the plot holes only really arise if we take whatever Berath says as true, the whole truth, and infallibly true. If we instead simply accept that Berath could be wrong and accept the first-hand accounts of reincarnation prior to the Wheel as a more reliable truth than Berath... then the plot holes disappear and we're instead left with fallible gods. Which is deeply thematically appropriate and in-line with literally the rest of the lore of Eora. 

 

So... I know where I stand on the matter. 

[Starwars]

I don't consider it a plot hole at all myself. I mean, lots of people will jump at the "yeah, it's just a poor excuse that there's no clear answer on it, clearly the devs are lazy or didn't think things through".

But who on earth would trust the gods after these two games and what happens in them? They really *are* children with far too much power, that much seems to be clear.

 

That we never learn the definitive answer to what happened exactly before the Wheel is just an interesting question to me and one that does not need to be answered in the game. Perhaps it will come in PoE3, but then I certainly hope they will raise more unanswered questions.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Starwars

[Aramintai]

So the only excuse for a retcon you guys can give is that the gods are lying even if there is no evidence in the game? Personally, I don't find it convincing - it's a cheap cop out that can excuse too many things, even lazy writing. But if it satisfies you, whatever, I'm not gonna argue...

[Alot]

So the only excuse for a retcon you guys can give is that the gods are lying even if there is no evidence in the game?

That's not the only "excuse" that has been given; have you read the comments you are addressing?

 

But if it satisfies you, whatever, I'm not gonna argue...

Judging by the comments you've made in this thread, I got the impression that you weren't particularly interested in hearing other people's opinions and merely sought affirmation of your own beliefs.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Alot

[Aramintai]

That's not the only "excuse" that has been given; have you read the comments you are addressing?

I did read them and in the end they all boil down to gods are not telling the truth. Them being programmed or forgetful is just the same - not telling the truth, lying.

[Alot]

 

That's not the only "excuse" that has been given; have you read the comments you are addressing?

I did read them and in the end they all boil down to gods are not telling the truth. Them being programmed or forgetful is just the same - not telling the truth, lying.

No, that is - per definition - not the same thing.

 

I did read them and in the end they all boil down to gods are not telling the truth.

No, that is not the only argument being made.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Alot

[Greensleeve]

The argument isn't that they're lying. It's that they don't know. And there is no reason why we should presume that they do know. 

 

Your argument is, in principle, saying that we should also take Caedman Azo at his word when he says he could cure Waidwen's Legacy. And I don't think it's fair to do that. 

[Aramintai]

To elaborate some more on Josh's Od Nua example. Here's what it says in the game:

So, Od Nua wanted his son to be reincarnated "properly", but without the gods it wasn't possible. Looks like Od Nua lived before the creation of the gods and the Wheel system.

 

What was considered a "proper reincarnation"? Not being reincarnated into an animal or splintered? Maybe being reincarnated at all? Why were the gods needed for this? To pray for better outcome? Or did Od Nua already knew about the Engwithan plan of making the gods to control the process?

 

And it looks like the only way to get a soul back from the Beyond back then was to forcibly pull it out through adra. This doesn't contradict what the gods are saying in POE2 about souls getting stuck in the Beyond without the Wheel.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Aramintai

[Thetis]

To elaborate some more on Josh's Od Nua example. Here's what it says in the game:

So, Od Nua wanted his son to be reincarnated "properly", but without the gods it wasn't possible. Looks like Od Nua lived before the creation of the gods and the Wheel system.

 

What was considered a "proper reincarnation"? Not being reincarnated into an animal or splintered? Maybe being reincarnated at all? Why were the gods needed for this? To pray for better outcome? Or did Od Nua already knew about the Engwithan plan of making the gods to control the process?

 

And it looks like the only way to get a soul back from the Beyond back then was to forcibly pull it out through adra. This doesn't contradict what the gods are saying POE2 about souls getting stuck in the Beyond without the Wheel.

 

Proper reincarnation prolly means he wanted his son, as a person, back, and not only his soul. Hence he created the statue in the imagine of his son. Otherwise the soul of his son would most likely fuel a different being, another human, animal or whatever. Since the Engwithans knew they are no gods, there was also no god that could grant him the wish of reincarnating his son, so he had to advise a plan to do it himself somehow. And we already know that souls are drawn to the Adra.

 

Could also means he just didn't want the soul of his son to be messed up in the reincarnation process, as all sorts of things can go wrong there.

 

The gods are not needed for the reincarnation process, but the process is needed for the gods, as the souls fuel them. Each time a being is reborn with a soul, the soul weakens, as a tiny part of it gets chipped off to sustain the gods. Without the process the gods would die, hence they have all the reason to keep the wheel going.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Thetis