[Rough Damage Comparsion lvl 20] Ravager (Pillar/Berserk) vs Transcendent (Pillar/Soul Blade)

[Voltron]

EDIT: Added  Votary class (Shattered Pillar/Bleak Walker) at the end of post too.

 

Those are rough damage comparsions between two on lvl 20. Please note I don't calculated anything else - like speed comparsion etc (though Ravager wins here on paper) and DID NOT calculate any Cipher spells here as they were imo not worth over passives and you want to spam soul anihilation anyway as melee. Only his bitting Soul Whip (bitting) + Soul Anihillation were used.

 

Ravager vs Transcendent

 

Race: Human, same Stats for both, NO ADDITIONAL gear (naked). Damage was vs Pirates, some animals and Skeletons/Reventants in cave.

 

 

The following damage numbers were compared:

 

Basic Attack and crits, Torment Reach and crits, Soul Anihilation and crits, Barbarian Smash and crits, Spirit Tornado and its crits, Carmage and Rooting Pain.

 

For both I used Swift Flurry instead of Lightning strikes. While LS would make this damage here higher, for actual gameplay I think SF is better. But that is irrelevant now.

I used all passives for both multis that boost Two Weapon and hits to crit convertion + Turning Wheel for bonus fire damage (the additiona + Damage is always that). Transcendent had Crit Bonus 10% passive while Ravager did not have that passive as I took something else.


Base Damage (activated all abilities):

 

Transcendent: 43+12, 44+8, 39+11/47+14, crit 48+14, crit 43+ 12, 190.6 (4 Crit), Crit 80+23 (2 Crit) 134.5 (3 crit) 41+12 crit

 

Ravager: 40+9, crit 66+19/74+21 (Swift Flurry), 44+1. 40+12, 42+9, Crit 52+12, crit 55+16, crit 60+18, crit 56+17 189.1 (5 Crit), 234,5 (1 Hit, 3 Crit), 128 (3 Crit)


Torment Reach:

Trans: 30+8/28+7 31+7, crit 51+6 /47 +5/52+6/

 

Ravager: Crit 49+6/54+6/70+8,55+10, base 32+8, 31+8

 

 

Soul anihhilation vs Barbarian Smash

Soul: crit 59+14, normal 43+12, crit 53+15, crit 57 + 16, Crit 66 +12, crit 52+15, crit 66+9

 

Barbarian Smash: Crits: 62+18 69+20, 72+21, 62+11, 59+17, 68+13, 66+20, Crit 195.6 dmg (3 Crit)

 

 

 

Carnage:

 

11-18 dmg average around you when there are at least two enemies.

Rooting Pain:

 

crits 19+4, 16+4, 21+6. Crits much often for Ravager

 

 

Spirit Tornado:

 

AOE Crit 80 + 24, 90+14, normal 69 + 12.

 

 

 

 

Overall damage is comparable with few things:

Trans has little better base attack dmg due to Soul Whip, but not much. However Ravager is much faster (Bloodlust stacks + Frenzy 25% vs Trans 20% from only Swift Flurry) and crits much often, has more buffs on him, has amazing AOE dmg with Carnage, Torment Reach, Rooting Pain and initial Spirit Tornado. Also as I said - Ravager did not have passive that increase Crit Dmg by 10% as I took other passive (mistake).

Also Barbarian smash vs Soul Anihilation: while they do comparable dmg, with little edge on Barbarian Smash here, you can use Barbarian Smash one after each other as it costs 2 Range and if you kill someone- it gives cost back. Whole Soul Anihilation takes your whole Focus and you need to build it back, so you can use couple in a row vs target. It also increases your Carnage area by 50%.

Overall I think both are super fun to play as but my vote goes for Ravager.

 

 

Also +5 to Intellect from Monk DOES NOT CANCEL CONFUSION. It removes it for a split of sec but then it goes back again. You still do friendly dmg and you still can't see your health bar.

Hence why I recommend human as you activate Fighting Sprit at Bloodied and also you can take Resistances passive on barbarian that will active when between 50% and 75% HP which can also give you infor how much HP you lost.


I know those are super duper tests through out whole game, but at least it will give some insight on both builds. There is also gear later and Dihotomious Spirit that summons two spirits of you (Frost and Flame) and can also boost overall damage.

 

Hope it helps for now.

I will do some tests for Pillar/Bleak Walker later and add here.


EDIT: Here it is

 

Votary

 

Shattered Pillar/Bleak Walker - maxed dmg from burn/fire + Brand Enemy plus Flames of Devotion (dmg is base + Fire + Corrosive when you see three different numbers). Naked as builds above, human race, increased Crit Damage by 10% (same as Trans, but Ravager did not have it).

 

 

Base: crit 42+5, crit 52 + 12 (Brand Enemy), (Swift Flurry) 72 + 17 (Brand Enemy), crit 51 + 12 (Brand enemy), crit 42 + 10 (normal), crit 44 + 18 (Normal), (Swift Flurry) crit 83 + 33 (Brand), 34 + 14 +  6, Crit 44 + 23 + 8 (normal), crit 43 + 17 + 7 (Brand), crit 149.5 (3 crit), 35 + 15 + 6 (normal)

Torment Reach: Crit 59 + 31 + 10 (Brand), crit 46 + 16 + 8 (Normal), crit 58 + 30 + 10 (normal), crit 59 + 19 + 9 (Branded), Crit 49 + 11 (Brand)

Eternal Devotion: crit 60 + 34 + 10, crit 63 + 33 +11 (Brand enemy), crit 67 + 35 + 12 (Brand Enemy), crit 57 + 40 + 10 (Brand Enemy), Crit 65 + 11 (Brand, enemy immune to fire), crit 64 + 34 + 11


It beats both Ravager and Sould Blades' Barbarian Blow and Soul Anihilation AS LONG AS TARGET IS NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE. He get's insane fire damage bonus when using Eternal Devotion + Monk Turning Wheel and fire bonus penetration from Passive. Base is average, little below Ravager, Torment Reach seems weaker. I used Tremondous Blows here to get him same buff as on Ravager as I skipped now Dance of Death.

We also have aura here that converts some hits to Crits plus passive that converts hits to crits + Lay down hands for emergency and some other good stuff.

But in terms of damage it's better than Ravager barbarian blow for single target (Eternal Devotion) if target is not resistance to Fire. It's much worse AOE than Ravager and it has not as much possible utility as Trans (Pillar/Soul Blade). Also Raveger Stun on hit (Spirit Frenzy) seems  better for me than extra Fire dmg.

Sadly Branded Enemy seems to do almost no difference in damage done. At least it was totally not noticable.... Dunno how much it does but it wasn't much of a difference testing various damage as you can see above.

However overall it seems it terms of Damage: Single Target - Votary>Ravager>Transcendent if target is not resistant to Fire. If target is resistant or immune to Fire Ravager>Trans>Votary.

Not bad build but paladin abilities are meh and not as fun as Barbarian ones, Monk ones or Cypher ones.

Next I will test Pure Shattered Pillar.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Voltron

[Climhazzard]

I have been messing around with the pillar/soul blade.  I would want to include spells like disintegration, amplified wave, and borrowed instinct.  It is unfortunate that they are endgame while frenzy and carnage are level 1, but I still think they should be considered.

 

To add to the human/barbarian combo, there's a necklace you get pretty early that gives you a lot of damage resistance when your health gets low.  I haven't really tested it out to much yet but it seems like a good synergy.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Climhazzard

[Hetmasteeen]

As someone who's never played Cipher (not even in PoE1), which soulblade cipher skills are a must?

 

I'm doing a pillar soulblade too and I feel like I have no idea what i'm doing on my cipher side. Currently level 5 so only have access to level 2 skills, but not sure how I'll progress. I took biting whip instead of draining whip, hopefully that was a good idea. It sounded better in the long run.

[Climhazzard]

I personally went with draining whip so I can use the annihilation attack more.  Which you pick probably depends on how the upgrade works.  Like if it just makes base soul whip go from 20% to 30%, or if it adds 30% on top of the 20%, maybe I'll check later to make sure.

 

As for spells I feel like a lot of them will basically cost you the time that you could have just used to kill your enemy, in other words they aren't terribly useful.  For the forced level 1 pick I went with whisper of treason since you can use it from stealth at the start of a battle.  I think phantom foes is decent from the level 2 spells (especially if you have a rogue).  After that everything is kind of questionable until you get ringleader and borrowed instinct (imo), pain block might be a useful support spell for your tank depending on your team composition.  In PoE amplified wave and disintegration were among the best cipher spells, and I don't expect that will change here, so you'll want those for your endgame picks.

 

Also if you mess up you can respec at the Inn, so don't worry to much.  Though I don't think you can repick your starting abilities.

[AgentNoun]

Do you think it's worth it to pick up Soul Blade as a multiclass over going pure Shattered Pillar Monk? Do Monk's own abilities and unarmed damage bonus progression make up for the lack of Soul Whip/Soul Annihilation damage?

[Voltron]

Do you think it's worth it to pick up Soul Blade as a multiclass over going pure Shattered Pillar Monk? Do Monk's own abilities and unarmed damage bonus progression make up for the lack of Soul Whip/Soul Annihilation damage?

I think Shattered Pillar pure wins because of Resonant Touch and Inner Death. Both do insane dmg. However it terms of Basic Attacks/Torment Reach etc without those I think they will be roughly on same level. I will try to test that after I test Monk/Bleak Walker.

 

The main imo advantage of pure Shattered Pillar is how fast you will get Torments Reach and it's upgrade (AOE stun) which can faceroll most fights at this level easly.

 

But multis are just more fun and Ravager is AOE monster with Torment Reach AOE stun + Carnage, Rooting Pain + Spirit Tornado and Stuns on hit from it. You can stun everything with Spirit Frenzy + Upgraded Torment.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Voltron

[Climhazzard]

Do you think it's worth it to pick up Soul Blade as a multiclass over going pure Shattered Pillar Monk? Do Monk's own abilities and unarmed damage bonus progression make up for the lack of Soul Whip/Soul Annihilation damage?

 

 

I just can't think of anything cooler than being able to use amplified wave on a monk...  but Voltron is probably right that pure shattered pillar is the best choice right now.  Early game because you get raised torment sooner, late game because the pure monk abilities are strong.

[Voltron]

Votary

 

Shattered Pillar/Bleak Walker - maxed dmg from burn/fire + Brand Enemy plus Flames of Devotion (dmg is base + Fire + Corrosive when you see three different numbers). Naked as builds above, human race, increased Crit Damage by 10% (same as Trans, but Ravager did not have it).

Base: crit 42+5, crit 52 + 12 (Brand Enemy), (Swift Flurry) 72 + 17 (Brand Enemy), crit 51 + 12 (Brand enemy), crit 42 + 10 (normal), crit 44 + 18 (Normal), (Swift Flurry) crit 83 + 33 (Brand), 34 + 14 +  6, Crit 44 + 23 + 8 (normal), crit 43 + 17 + 7 (Brand), crit 149.5 (3 crit), 35 + 15 + 6 (normal)

Torment Reach: Crit 59 + 31 + 10 (Brand), crit 46 + 16 + 8 (Normal), crit 58 + 30 + 10 (normal), crit 59 + 19 + 9 (Branded), Crit 49 + 11 (Brand)

Eternal Devotion: crit 60 + 34 + 10, crit 63 + 33 +11 (Brand enemy), crit 67 + 35 + 12 (Brand Enemy), crit 57 + 40 + 10 (Brand Enemy), Crit 65 + 11 (Brand, enemy immune to fire), crit 64 + 34 + 11


It beats both Ravager and Sould Blades' Barbarian Blow and Soul Anihilation AS LONG AS TARGET IS NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE. He get's insane fire damage bonus when using Eternal Devotion + Monk Turning Wheel and fire bonus penetration from Passive. Base is average, little below Ravager, Torment Reach seems weaker. I used Tremondous Blows here to get him same buff as on Ravager as I skipped now Dance of Death.

We also have aura here that converts some hits to Crits plus passive that converts hits to crits + Lay down hands for emergency and some other good stuff.

But in terms of damage it's better than Ravager barbarian blow for single target (Eternal Devotion) if target is not resistance to Fire. It's much worse AOE than Ravager and it has not as much possible utility as Trans (Pillar/Soul Blade). Also Raveger Stun on hit (Spirit Frenzy) seems  better for me than extra Fire dmg.

Sadly Branded Enemy seems to do almost no difference in damage done. At least it was totally not noticable.... Dunno how much it does but it wasn't much of a difference testing various damage as you can see above.

However overall it seems it terms of Damage: Single Target - Votary>Ravager>Transcendent if target is not resistant to Fire. If target is resistant or immune to Fire Ravager>Trans>Votary.

Not bad build but paladin abilities are meh and not as fun as Barbarian ones, Monk ones or Cypher ones.

Next I will test Pure Shattered Pillar.

[Voltron]

Ugh, Inner Death is straight broken right now. You can deal several hundreds damage with it. Pure Monk will hands down outdamage any other class in game with Inner Death.... And add empower to that... Ugh.

I will stick to multi for now. Inner Death is just too broken even for me.

[dunehunter]

Why Soul annihilation does so low damage in your calculation???

[Voltron]

Why Soul annihilation does so low damage in your calculation???

 

Well, thats how much damage it does. It's not calculation, it's what games shows when I hit someone :D. As I said, stats were the same, race human, used before hit all buffs and then use SA on enemy and those were results. This is the damage on lvl 20 monk/soul blade. I took all crit damage/hits to crit etc passives and I was pretty much always criting against enemies since it was lvl 20 vs beginning of the game.

 

Maybe you tested it with HellWalker with stacked Wounds, but this is how it looks on Shattered/Berserker.

 

Unless there is some hidden dmg threshold vs low level enemies, but I don't know nothing about it.

 

Also this was on NAKED character, no gear was used at all. Might was I think 20 in all cases.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Voltron

[dunehunter]

So u use it when u have 0 focus? Hmmm this comparsion is not fair.

[Urthor]

Right, but you can't expect all soul annihilation's to have rollover focus from a previous combat. So he is starting each combat with zero focus.

 

If you spend 3 rounds gaining focus then you are going to do less DPS than a barb using his abilities every round.  

[Urthor]

Also the fact that Barbaric Blow and Swift flurries stack... I want to play Barbarian/Monk now 

 

Turns out after all the theory crafting Cipher multiclasses are not as good as hyped up to be slower Torments reach, hilariously.  

[Voltron]

So u use it when u have 0 focus? Hmmm this comparsion is not fair.

 

I used it when I had 63 Focus. Why should I wait for more focus. To boost its damage once and lose all Focus? In the time I wait for more focus I can do 4-5 Barbarian Blows. But If you want I can sit a little and wait for focus to build. But not now since all enemies die from one hit.

[dunehunter]

Oh I didn’t see the number after dot sorry

[Voltron]

Oh I didn’t see the number after dot sorry

no worries . So far I really like Transcendant the least.

I play now with Shattered/Berserker but I think Nalpazca could be a winner late game. It's not very good early as crafting drugs is expensive, but I bet mid-end game you can craft a lot of them and then he can be scary.

 

Though it remains to be seen how much damage you are able to avoid (via gear or how fast you can kill) because still gaining wounds from Shattered Pillar is just sooo goood. You basicelly spam Torment Reach all the time.

[Toasters]

 

Oh I didn’t see the number after dot sorry

no worries . So far I really like Transcendant the least.

I play now with Shattered/Berserker but I think Nalpazca could be a winner late game. It's not very good early as crafting drugs is expensive, but I bet mid-end game you can craft a lot of them and then he can be scary.

 

Though it remains to be seen how much damage you are able to avoid (via gear or how fast you can kill) because still gaining wounds from Shattered Pillar is just sooo goood. You basicelly spam Torment Reach all the time.

 

 

What's a good build for a pure Shattered Pillar Monk? I'm lost on race/stats, and I'd like to start actually playing the game, haha. 

[Voltron]

 

 

Oh I didn’t see the number after dot sorry

no worries . So far I really like Transcendant the least.

I play now with Shattered/Berserker but I think Nalpazca could be a winner late game. It's not very good early as crafting drugs is expensive, but I bet mid-end game you can craft a lot of them and then he can be scary.

 

Though it remains to be seen how much damage you are able to avoid (via gear or how fast you can kill) because still gaining wounds from Shattered Pillar is just sooo goood. You basicelly spam Torment Reach all the time.

 

 

What's a good build for a pure Shattered Pillar Monk? I'm lost on race/stats, and I'd like to start actually playing the game, haha. 

 

 

I would go for 14-16 Might, 14-16 Dex and 14-16 Perception. All are good for monk. Can't say specific stats yet as I don't know the later game gear bonuses etc. But I would probably grab 16 Might to get +2 from Human and Origin. For race you could take Nautral Godlike for +2 Power Levels bonus but at same time we don't know if there are not some super helemets/hoods/crows later in game. Moon Godlike is also good because of self heal and humans are also very good due to their bonuses and Fighting Spirit which is quite useful in the game for light armored front liner. I stick with humans till I beat game and see all head gear.

 

As for abilities- Take first Swift Strikes and later upgrade them to Swift Flurry. Take Lesser wounds. Later focus on getting Tormnet Reach (upgrade this one later) as soon as possible. Also Take: Two Weapon Style (if you use fists which I recommend), Clarity of Agony and Dance of Death (upgrade this one later). Blade Turning might be great vs melee foes. Take Duality of mortal presense and then upgrade to turning wheel. Rest is up to you. Just on Level IX take Inner Death- it's broken as **** now.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Voltron

[KDubya]

I've still got a few more hours of download, been chugging away for a few days now.

 

I'm trying to follow your test data - are the numbers shown what you actually did in game for like five attacks? It'd be better to straight up math calc it out.

 

A few questions:

 

1. What about the +5 dex buff from swift strikes? This would make Swift strikes faster than Frenzy.
2. Swift Flurry benefits the Berserker with their 50% hit to crit much more than it does the Cipher. I'd guess that Lightning Strikes would be better for the Cipher, plus its a sure thing.
3. You can't equate an attack that costs two rage and might return the cost if it kills with an attack like Soul Annihilation that is limitless in the number of uses. Alternating Torments Reach with Soul Annihilation would generate focus to burn.
4. Did you add in Thunderous Blows? Especially for the Cipher as the Berserker already has the buffs from Frenzy.

 

Also you need to consider the deflection malus from Frenzy and the friendly fire aspects of the Berserker. The carnage damage will add up quickly against your team as well as being constantly interrupted by the Rooting Pain and the occasional stun from getting in the way of a Torments. The Cipher also has access to all of the Cipher powers and there have to be a few great ones in there.

 

Both are going to put out great damage, so the better one probably comes down to playstyle and perhaps even role playing  

[Voltron]

I've still got a few more hours of download, been chugging away for a few days now.

 

I'm trying to follow your test data - are the numbers shown what you actually did in game for like five attacks? It'd be better to straight up math calc it out.

 

A few questions:

 

1. What about the +5 dex buff from swift strikes? This would make Swift strikes faster than Frenzy.
2. Swift Flurry benefits the Berserker with their 50% hit to crit much more than it does the Cipher. I'd guess that Lightning Strikes would be better for the Cipher, plus its a sure thing.
3. You can't equate an attack that costs two rage and might return the cost if it kills with an attack like Soul Annihilation that is limitless in the number of uses. Alternating Torments Reach with Soul Annihilation would generate focus to burn.
4. Did you add in Thunderous Blows? Especially for the Cipher as the Berserker already has the buffs from Frenzy.

 

Also you need to consider the deflection malus from Frenzy and the friendly fire aspects of the Berserker. The carnage damage will add up quickly against your team as well as being constantly interrupted by the Rooting Pain and the occasional stun from getting in the way of a Torments. The Cipher also has access to all of the Cipher powers and there have to be a few great ones in there.

 

Both are going to put out great damage, so the better one probably comes down to playstyle and perhaps even role playing

 

1. Well, it's always there +5 Dex for all that builds so it was always active.

2. I was comparing damage, not DPS. Swift Flurry can make Ravager hit several times more, but it doesn't affect the single hit damage.

3. As I mentioned I was testing DAMAGE, not DPS. Besides you can see that there not that much difference between normal punch crit and SA or BB. Sure you can probably spam SA more, but question is- how long are late game combats and will you really have opportunity to use "infinite SA" bullding your focus.

4. I forgot to add them to Trans but at the same time Ravager did not have increased Crit Damage passive so I consider that even. Trans did little less base damage and Ravager little less crit damage than both should have. Still, not big difference.

 

Friendly fire is not problem as I build my whole party for range so I don't kill them. They just support my killing machine. And -10 Deflection is minor and can be offset by many things. Also Snef drug can offset confusion if you want.

 

Overall you'd spam SA vs single target I would say that you can out dps Ravager maybe if target lives long enough. However it terms of fighint vs more enemies Ravager just out DPS Trans by a lot.

 

Still the playstyle for all Melee Multi Shattered Pillar is very simillar. You buff, you attack, you spam strongest attack. That's all

[SaruNi]

I've still got a few more hours of download, been chugging away for a few days now.

 

I'm trying to follow your test data - are the numbers shown what you actually did in game for like five attacks? It'd be better to straight up math calc it out.

 

A few questions:

 

1. What about the +5 dex buff from swift strikes? This would make Swift strikes faster than Frenzy

 

Bit off topic, but Barbarians can get +5 dex from Wild Sprint (as well as Nimble, which is better than Swift Flurry's Quick, and also immune to engagement). Though Blood Thirst is the biggest speed bonus by far... were you using that to calculate DPS? (It's power level 7 so available to multiclass at endgame.) 

[Voltron]

 

I've still got a few more hours of download, been chugging away for a few days now.

 

I'm trying to follow your test data - are the numbers shown what you actually did in game for like five attacks? It'd be better to straight up math calc it out.

 

A few questions:

 

1. What about the +5 dex buff from swift strikes? This would make Swift strikes faster than Frenzy

 

Bit off topic, but Barbarians can get +5 dex from Wild Sprint (as well as Nimble, which is better than Swift Flurry's Quick, and also immune to engagement). Though Blood Thirst is the biggest speed bonus by far... were you using that to calculate DPS? (It's power level 7 so available to multiclass at endgame.) 

 

As I mentioned I compared damage, not DPS, but I agree that on paper Swift Flurry/Wild Sprint + Frenzy + Bloodlust + Berserker passive offers a lot more DPS. 

 

Berserker/Bleak Walker would be fun  

[Voltron]

It's also worth to mention that Soul Anhiilation is Primary Attack, Not Full Attack, so will only deal damage with the Weapon in your primary hand. This makes it more effective with Two-Handed Weapon than if you Dual Wield (monks always Dual Wield).

While Barbarian Blow is Full Attack so it's more effective with Dual Wield. And so it synergies much better with Fist Monk. 

Which also imo makes Barbarian better for Monk than Soul Blade in my opinion. Not that Sould Blade is not viable.

 

Also another thing is that Barbarian Blow is not only an 25% Damage bonus but also 30% of Hits converted to Crits (cumulative with already 30% passive), and +50% Crit Damage (cumulative with Crit Damage bonus from Passive if you take it).

Edited May 10, 2018 by Voltron

[malchiorita]

Wait, what do you mean that the +5 int from monk doesnt remove confusion? You mean clarity of mind? Cause if so, it should be a bug, since smart should dispel confusion