Companions and Romance

[InsaneCommander]

Some people probably created expectations on Valentine's day:

 

https://www.fig.co/campaigns/deadfire/updates/263

 

But if you think about it, Pallegina's and Eder's pictures don't really give the same "romanceable" impression as Aloth's and Tekehu's.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nebty]

 

I am currently interested in whether the romances have branching ending cards (particularly for Aloth). I'm probably going to go dig through the files when I get home.

 

Yes, he does. It's pretty short though. Most of them are just a line or two, and relatively vague and open ended. Xoti's are the most detailed.

 

I like vague and open-ended better than super detailed anyways. Gives you more room to imagine what happens.

 

I just hope there's a version of the ending that allows him and the watcher to stick together after the story.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Nebty

[Durandal.IV]

I went back to look at how companion relationships-- which were introduced as a $3M strech goal-- were described during the Fig campaign.  Here's the money paragraph:

As far as where the relationships can lead, companions may develop strong feelings of camaraderie, loyalty, loathing, fear, contempt, or even love.  The culmination of these relationships may be a conversation, a scripted interaction, a special talent or ability, or even a unique item or recipe.  The important thing to our narrative designers is that we treat each relationship as its own unique story that develops in ways that feel true to the characters and themes of Deadfire.

 

Nowhere does the update say everyone is romanceable.  It just says that the Watcher can have different kinds of relationships with the party members, and one possibility for that relationship, among five others, is love.  I don't see how anyone could read the developer update and conclude that all companions are romanceable.

 

But I can see how someone who did not read the developer update might conclude that all companions are romanceable.  The update was made on Valentine's Day and references that fact.  There are pictures at the bottom suggesting that Eder, Pallegina, Aloth, and Tekēhu are romanceable.  The video even starts with a cheesy romantic setting, before abruptly noting that companion relationships are broader than romance.  

 

Perhaps those who feel jilted did not actually read through the post or finish watching the video, and thus missed the joke?

 

True, but that was part of the problem. It may not have said they were all romanceable, but it certainly didn't say that some of them weren't. It was not definitive. It was open-ended and vague. And I remember that video because I was surprised how well he was rocking that blush. The part that needed clarity is the term relationship. It's such a broad and general word that it is open to misinterpretation. This is where clarification would have been needed. Is a relationship a romance? Not necessarily, but do you ever hear people talk about their romances? Nope. You hear them talking about their relationships. With this in mind, it's actually quite obvious where the confusion is. That's probably part of why the term was selected instead of romances.

[Mikeymoonshine]

That is a good point that it was posted on valentines day and had those cutsey pictures. I think the point was to kinda joke about romance in video games so as to say "we are trying to create relationships that are more complicated than just romance options" whether or not they did that can be debated of course. 

[Durandal.IV]

 

 

I am currently interested in whether the romances have branching ending cards (particularly for Aloth). I'm probably going to go dig through the files when I get home.

 

Yes, he does. It's pretty short though. Most of them are just a line or two, and relatively vague and open ended. Xoti's are the most detailed.

 

I like vague and open-ended better than super detailed anyways. Gives you more room to imagine what happens.

 

I just hope there's a version of the ending that allows him and the watcher to stick together after the story.

 

 

[Balbanes]

That is a good point that it was posted on valentines day and had those cutsey pictures. I think the point was to kinda joke about romance in video games so as to say "we are trying to create relationships that are more complicated than just romance options" whether or not they did that can be debated of course. 

 

Yeah.  During the campaign, I remember thinking "wait, what exactly are they doing" and reading through the whole thing (and watching the humorous video!), which was actually pretty clear about what Obsidian ended up implementing.  But I can see how someone might look at the first few lines, scroll down to comment and thus see the pictures, and think "OMG I can haz romance Eder!!1!1"

 

And maybe it's OK that some backers did that?  I doubt I read every word of every update either.  I was just interested in this particular stretch goal and thus read the whole thing.  I'll note that in my professional writing, I generally assume that people won't read my entire email/document/whatever and thus I put the takeaway in the first paragraph, if not the first sentence.  Perhaps the updates should have done the same?

[Fluffle]

Crowdfunding is like investing in stocks. It is an investment you hope has good returns. It might only end up giving you crappy .5% returns. People treat it like it's a commission for an artist. It's not. It's an investment that may or not pan out.

 

Yeah exactly.

 

Obsidian did not make any guarantees that Edér would be a romance option.

They did also not make any guarantees that he would NOT be a romance option.

 

So one couldn't have known in advance. Yet some people still donated money to the campaign anyway. Even though they were aware that both options were possible. And now that the option that they dislike has been realized they feel betrayed and intentionally misled by Obsidian.

 

And my standpoint is this:

Obsidian is NOT responsible for someone spending money on a product of which they didn't know in advance if they'd like it or not. If someone didn't know for sure and YET spend money on it anyway that is their risk and their responsibility.

 

Someone's trust or good faith in Obsidian does not bind Obsidian to make their product after that someone's liking and demands.

Because, exactly as you say, donating to a crowd funding campaign is not like a commission for an artist.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Fluffle

[Yria]

 

 

I am currently interested in whether the romances have branching ending cards (particularly for Aloth). I'm probably going to go dig through the files when I get home.

 

Yes, he does. It's pretty short though. Most of them are just a line or two, and relatively vague and open ended. Xoti's are the most detailed.

 

I like vague and open-ended better than super detailed anyways. Gives you more room to imagine what happens.

 

I just hope there's a version of the ending that allows him and the watcher to stick together after the story.

 

 

There is, I saw someone post his other ending on a different forum. But now I'm also wondering about the other companions. 

[Fluffle]

 

True, but that was part of the problem. It may not have said they were all romanceable, but it certainly didn't say that some of them weren't. It was not definitive. It was open-ended and vague.

 

It was NOT definitive. It was open-ended and vague.

 

Why would you spend money then? You knew it was not definitive. You knew it was open-ended and vague. So you knew there was no certainty in that regard. You knew there was no guarantee. So you knew there was a risk.

 

And based on that knowledge you decided to spend money on it. And now you are blaming Obsidian for that.

 

You took a gamble. You lost. But you don't want to take any responsibility for taking that gamble in the first place.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Fluffle

[Durandal.IV]

 

 

True, but that was part of the problem. It may not have said they were all romanceable, but it certainly didn't say that some of them weren't. It was not definitive. It was open-ended and vague.

 

It was NOT definitive. It was open-ended and vague.

 

Why would you spend money then? You knew it was not definitive. You knew it was open-ended and vague. So you knew there was no certainty in that regard. You knew there was no guarantee. So you knew there was a risk.

 

And based on that knowledge you decided to spend money on it. And now you are blaming Obsidian for that.

 

You took a gamble. You lost. But you don't want to take any responsibility for taking that gamble in the first place.

 

 

You're comparing the ending of the final product to the marketing of said product. Nice try, but I'm not buying.

 

...Although I technically did.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Durandal.IV

[Ryz009]

Yeah I'm the biggest yay romance in games cheerleader but Obsidian made sure to focus on character relationships not romance with that update. I backed it expecting some romances but hoping it was for the characters I was interested in. And they did put improved character relationships like rivalry and other characters getting together in the game. Is it what I'd prefer? Some yes some no. But they didn't break their word.

That said screw everything about who Eder actually gets with. Poor Aloth.

 

I didn't think it was possible but I found a ship I hate more than JokerxEDI.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Ryz009

[Durandal.IV]

 

 

 

I am currently interested in whether the romances have branching ending cards (particularly for Aloth). I'm probably going to go dig through the files when I get home.

 

Yes, he does. It's pretty short though. Most of them are just a line or two, and relatively vague and open ended. Xoti's are the most detailed.

 

I like vague and open-ended better than super detailed anyways. Gives you more room to imagine what happens.

 

I just hope there's a version of the ending that allows him and the watcher to stick together after the story.

 

 

There is, I saw someone post his other ending on a different forum. But now I'm also wondering about the other companions. 

 

 

I don't think all of them did. Some were parting of ways, others were just "Til we meet again" . Maia and Xoti were the latter, for example. I just realized that sentence has two different meanings, and they both work.

[Kassie]

Okay. I didn't back the game, didn't have the extra funds. When I say I wanted a list, I meant sometime before the official release of the game. When I looked up about relationships, I read a bunch of other people and thought that Eder would be a choice. After a certain point, the devs could've come out and said who the interests were. I would hope a month before release, this kinda thing would be determined. And I admit that some of the blame is on me, but the devs could've tempered expectations more is all I'm saying.

[Nebty]

Yeah I'm the biggest yay romance in games cheerleader but Obsidian made sure to focus on character relationships not romance with that update. I backed it expecting some romances but hoping it was for the characters I was interested in. And they did put improved character relationships like rivalry and other characters getting together in the game. Is it what I'd prefer? Some yes some no. But they didn't break their word.

 

That said screw everything about who Eder actually gets with. Poor Aloth.

 

I didn't think it was possible but I found a ship I hate more than JokerxEDI.

 

Same. On both. I was pretty vocally salty during development when it became obvious that Obsidian wan't going to tell us who the romances were (and I still do prefer to know ahead of time so I can come to terms with it) but I can see the other side as well. It wouldn't have been much fun to say, "Eder isn't a romance" and then get questions like these for months before the release of the game. Plus revealing exactly why would have meant revealing more plot than Obsidian was probably comfortable with.

 

But wow, given what goes down with him, Aloth, and Iselmyr I'm not quite sure I'd want to romance Eder anymore. At best it's a really hurtful lack of consideration for another person. Eder's kind of a dumbass but I expected better of him.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Nebty

[Ryz009]

 

Same. On both. I was pretty vocally salty during development when it became obvious that Obsidian wan't going to tell us who the romances were (and I still do prefer to know ahead of time so I can come to terms with it) but I can see the other side as well. It wouldn't have been much fun to say, "Eder isn't a romance" and then get questions like these for months before the release of the game. Plus revealing exactly why would have meant revealing more plot than Obsidian was probably comfortable with.

 

But wow, given what goes down with him, Aloth, and Iselmyr I'm not quite sure I'd want to romance Eder anymore. At best it's a really hurtful lack of consideration for another person. Eder's kind of a dumbass but I expected better of him.

 

 

Yeah I do hate the need to hide who the romances are. I loved so much that DA2 didn't drag it out until release. But I know how utterly insane some people can get and why the devs would want to stave that off as much as possible especially when they're trying to work on the game. I read some comments that had me cringing in embarrassment.

 

I have to agree really. Aloth's clearly uncomfortable with it and to be blunt Iselmyr had her chance to live her life. That said thankfully for me this is easily solved by Aloth suppressing her to begin with but the fact that Eder goes along with that as you said makes him look pretty inconsiderate. I never really liked Iselmyr though so this just makes me dislike her more sadly.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Ryz009

[Nebty]

I have to agree really. Aloth's clearly uncomfortable with it and to be blunt Iselmyr had her chance to live her life. That said thankfully for me this is easily solved by Aloth suppressing her to begin with but the fact that Eder goes along with that as you said makes him look pretty inconsiderate. I never really liked Iselmyr though so this just makes me dislike her more sadly.

 

See, I'm kind of the opposite on that. Iselmyr is what she is. She's chaotic neutral, and she wants to get Aloth laid because he's lonely and repressed and desperately wants friends. I gave Aloth the choice in PoE and he chose not to suppress her, and he does seem to enjoy her company and get along with her pretty well otherwise.

 

But Eder should know better. If he was attracted to Aloth too (and Aloth was enthusiastically into this arrangement) then it would be fine. But encouraging Iselmyr instead of shutting that down immediately shows that he just doesn't really think about Aloth's feelings very much - which he demonstrated in my least favourite banter in the original game (the one where he basically forgot Aloth existed and invited Iselmyr out for a drink). That is not ok on so many levels, but especially when Aloth really needs friends he can trust.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Nebty

[Tarlonniel]

Is a romantic relationship for your player character only appealing to you if it ends with "and then they lived happily ever after"? Not mocking you or anything btw, just curious.

I guess it depends on how you define "happily ever after." As Nebty said, I prefer to see my Watcher stick with their romantic partner. That's kind of the point of the whole relationship thing, in my book.

 

I see some folks posting about alternate ending slides. If someone could dig out Aloth's and post the different outcomes, I'd sure appreciate it!

 

And, after reading the rest of this thread, I may kick Eder out of my parties for good...

Edited May 11, 2018 by Tarlonniel

[Fiaryn]

This thread has made me wonder if I should regret defending fans of romances in RPGs as not-necessarily-crazy-people.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Fiaryn

[Durandal.IV]

This thread has made me wonder if I should regret defending fans of romances in RPGs as not-necessarily-crazy-people.

 

Don't look at me. I was just arguing about the role of trust in a kickstarter campaign.

 

Completely different subject... In that it was sparked by discussion of possible romance options... 

 

Maybe a quick glance, or out of the corner of your eye?

[Ryz009]

 

I have to agree really. Aloth's clearly uncomfortable with it and to be blunt Iselmyr had her chance to live her life. That said thankfully for me this is easily solved by Aloth suppressing her to begin with but the fact that Eder goes along with that as you said makes him look pretty inconsiderate. I never really liked Iselmyr though so this just makes me dislike her more sadly.

 

See, I'm kind of the opposite on that. Iselmyr is what she is. She's chaotic neutral, and she wants to get Aloth laid because he's lonely and repressed and desperately wants friends. I gave Aloth the choice in PoE and he chose not to suppress her, and he does seem to enjoy her company and get along with her pretty well otherwise.

 

But Eder should know better. If he was attracted to Aloth too (and Aloth was enthusiastically into this arrangement) then it would be fine. But encouraging Iselmyr instead of shutting that down immediately shows that he just doesn't really think about Aloth's feelings very much - which he demonstrated in my least favourite banter in the original game (the one where he basically forgot Aloth existed and invited Iselmyr out for a drink). That is not ok on so many levels, but especially when Aloth really needs friends he can trust.

 

 

Yeah I'm of the mind that she goes a bit far for it to just not want him being lonely. Plus its not her body at best she's an useful parasite. As for giving him a choice I didn't force him merely gave a suggestion he agreed. In POE1 I never got the impression he enjoyed her around maybe that changes in 2. That said my Aloth also ended up being a big authority cheerleader so there's that ;P

 

He should really plus why would you want to be with someone who thinks its funny to randomly force you to kiss someone else? What if she did that at an even more inopportune time? Just ick. It's a giant mish mash of all my least favorite things.

[Fluffle]

 

 

 

True, but that was part of the problem. It may not have said they were all romanceable, but it certainly didn't say that some of them weren't. It was not definitive. It was open-ended and vague.

 

It was NOT definitive. It was open-ended and vague.

 

Why would you spend money then? You knew it was not definitive. You knew it was open-ended and vague. So you knew there was no certainty in that regard. You knew there was no guarantee. So you knew there was a risk.

 

And based on that knowledge you decided to spend money on it. And now you are blaming Obsidian for that.

 

You took a gamble. You lost. But you don't want to take any responsibility for taking that gamble in the first place.

 

 

You're comparing the ending of the final product to the marketing of said product. Nice try, but I'm not buying.

 

...Although I technically did.

 

 

My problem in this current debate is, that Obsidian is being accused of INTENTIONALLY misleading people into giving them money. In some countries that is a serious accusation and a crime actually. Obsidian is being accused of having committed a crime.

 

In some countries that accusation is so serious in fact, that someone who makes it could be sued for defamation if it cannot be proven.

 

If we could take a step down in this debate and say we were disappointed. Okay. Or that we would have wished for more information during the campaign. Okay. But to accuse Obsidian to deliberately mislead their own backers. That's huge in my eyes.

 

I actually wonder if such an accusation is in accordance with the Site Rules here.

 

And if you are truly so upset and feel so betrayed then I wonder: What is left for you to do? What are you doing here? What will you be doing? You feel betrayed. How are you going to react? If you feel cheated for your money, should you not ask for refunds? If you feel Obsidian committed a crime, should you not consider legal actions?

 

You are on Obsidian's own forum. You are a guest here on these boards. And that is how you treat your host?

 

Could you at least consider to drop the "intentional"? Could you at least maybe admit that you are at least partially responsible for how you spend your money?

Edited May 11, 2018 by Fluffle

[Fiaryn]

Like

 

I'm fond of Pallegina as a character, I said "dang" when I found out she wasn't romanceable because I think she's a cool person but I think that's kinda the extent of my feelings on the subject. She's a lady with a lot of work to do, and a LOT of baggage. It's not entirely a surprise.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Fiaryn

[Fluffle]

My current discussion here may seem off-topic. That's why I am going to stop now. We can continue this per PM or in a new thread with a different topic.

However, I don't think it was completely off-topic. Romances in video games come with expectations, hopes, dreams, wishes and sadly also with entitlement and a huge potential to be disappointed.

And everyone will find their own way to deal with such disappointment. I would just like to ask that some of us stop accusing Obsidian of trying to trick their backers with intent.

 

If you feel mistreated by Obsidian then try to be the better person. Try not to answer that by mistreating Obsidian in return. Try to be open to the possibility that they did not hurt/disappoint/mislead you with intent.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Fluffle

[Durandal.IV]

 

 

 

 

True, but that was part of the problem. It may not have said they were all romanceable, but it certainly didn't say that some of them weren't. It was not definitive. It was open-ended and vague.

 

It was NOT definitive. It was open-ended and vague.

 

Why would you spend money then? You knew it was not definitive. You knew it was open-ended and vague. So you knew there was no certainty in that regard. You knew there was no guarantee. So you knew there was a risk.

 

And based on that knowledge you decided to spend money on it. And now you are blaming Obsidian for that.

 

You took a gamble. You lost. But you don't want to take any responsibility for taking that gamble in the first place.

 

 

You're comparing the ending of the final product to the marketing of said product. Nice try, but I'm not buying.

 

...Although I technically did.

 

 

My problem in this current debate is, that Obsidian is being accused of INTENTIONALLY misleading people into giving them money. In some countries that is a serious accusation and a crime actually. Obsidian is being accused of having committed a crime.

 

In some countries that accusation is so serious in fact, that someone who makes it could be sued for defamation if it cannot be proven.

 

If we could take a step down in this debate and say we were disappointed. Okay. Or that we would have wished for more information during the campaign. Okay. But to accuse Obsidian to deliberately mislead their own backers. That's huge in my eyes.

 

I actually wonder if such an accusation is in accordance with the Site Rules here.

 

And if you are truly so upset and feel so betrayed then I wonder: What is left for you to do? What are you doing here? What will you be doing? You feel betrayed. How are you going to react? If you feel cheated for your money, should you not ask for refunds? If you feel Obsidian committed a crime, should you not consider legal actions?

 

You are on Obsidian's own forum. You are a guest here on these boards. And that is how you treat your host?

 

Could you at least consider to drop the "intentional"? Could you at least maybe admit that you are at least partially responsible for how you spend your money?

 

 

Fair enough. These forums may belong to Obsidian, but they are here for the purpose of communicating with the fans. Are you saying I shouldn't let them know how I'm feeling? That it's better for them to continue in ignorance of something they likely did by accident, than let them know that their conduct in this matter did cause some friction between me and them? I have said nothing offensive, or untrue. I haven't accused them of anything, I have simply said how this whole thing has made me feel. 

 

Do I think it was done intentionally? Quite possibly. But I don't think it was malicious. If anything, I think they said what they did because the product was still evolving at the time. It could be that all the companions were meant to have a romance route at some point, but they found it didn't work for whatever reason. The updates have always served two purposes: 

 

1) To assure backers that funds aren't going to waste.

 

2) To market the game to those who are thinking of backing. 

 

The reason to keep the discussion of the relationship system vague is to draw in people who had hoped to see that system in place. It's not mean spirited to market your product, or to refrain from making commitments to the final product (Peter Molyneux is a good example of why that's a bad idea). What I felt was wrong was the fact that they allowed certain presumptions to continue well after the final decision had been made. As others have mentioned, they could have easily mentioned that two of the three most desired characters would not have romance routes, but they did not.

 

I don't think that was intentional, but it does not change the fact it was misleading. You are assuming this is some personal vendetta against Obsidian. It's not. I love their games. Pillars of Eternity was fantastic, and Deadfire is looking to be equally as good, if not better. Alpha protocol is one of my favourite games!

 

Just because I love their games does not mean I can't be critical of some of their actions however. As a backer, I would argue it's my duty (think of me as Obsidian's gadfly). Blind faith is just as dangerous to a game development company as blind hatred. Look at Bioware. Mass Effect Andromeda was a mess because they completely misread their audience. They assumed all their fans were radically liberal, and it completely backfired. Beamdog and Seige of Dragonspear had the exact same issue. 

 

All I'm saying is that Obsidian needs to be more careful about how they word things. The wrong type of wording can cause all sorts of problems, which is why they need to be sure to be clear. 

 

Edit: And yes, I saw your previous post, but I already had this started one and would rather beat my head against my keyboard than rewrite it. 

 

Just to clarify, this isn't me being angry or betrayed. This is me debating with you, and I have thoroughly enjoyed it. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Durandal.IV

[jf8350143]

The relationship system is bugged, like I imagined, they confirmed it in a post on reddit.. That's why Maia and Tekehu's romance conversation triggers so fast. And probably why Xoti and Pallegina will start arguing with each other when you just recruited her 5 minutes ago.

 

No idea whether it will be fixed or not in the upcoming patch.