Jump to content

Recommended Posts

 

While I certainly agree in general that not including romances is not a slap in the face, this particular romance was the most asked for. Making it one of the only two that is not available is a poor reading of their playerbase at the least. This is especially true since as mentioned his reasoning is he's not in the right mindspace right now, which is clearly an excuse on the character's part/writers not being able to come up with a better reason seeing as he gets with apparently another party member. It's super weird to take one of the most requested romances and say not only can you not romance them, but this npc can.

 

 

If I remember correctly the devs said that they did romances for the NPCs that the respective authors felt "right" to do. Actually I respect that. And I respect it all the more because I think they show backbone by not giving in to "popular demand".

 

How do you think a romance with a character would turn out to be if the author of that character didn't feel it at all?

 

 

It never ceases to amaze me. 

 

It doesn't surprise me or bother me in the least that Eder is not attracted to the Watcher (regardless of gender). It's easy to understand that he simply may not be attracted to your character for whatever reason. It happens all the time in both life and fiction that characters aren't always attracted to one another and attraction, interest and/or love are not always reciprocated. 

 

The same is true of any companion that isn't interested in the Watcher, why do they have to be? You can pine after whomever you want it doesn't always mean they're going to be open to a relationship. 

And then he potentially goes and hooks up with someone who is at best an occasional consciousness in a man's body, so he was either lying to the watcher about his reasons (which is a mean thing to do to someone you respect) or he has been inconsistently written, both of which some people may see as narratively frustrating.

 

 

And here is where the "agenda" kicks it. This is what the game will make you think about. If a man falls in love with a woman who happens to be in the body of a man. Does that make the first man gay? Is he supposed to like other men because he loves a woman inside a man's body?

 

Oh boy... I need actual confirmation on this first before I continue. This is not worth it, if it's all based on speculation. I still hope it's true though!

 

 

My answer to this entire discussion is "neither." The story being told here isn't about gender identity or sexual identity, it's about the very real, very tangible and very "observed" existence of a female soul who happens to be co-inhabiting the body of a male Elf. 

 

You can make it about gender identity and sexual identity and attach some kind of agenda to it if you want to but ultimately that's you reading into it what you believe is the intention. 

 

Again, a work of fiction. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you think a romance with a character would turn out to be if the author of that character didn't feel it at all?

We have an answer to this. It's "David Gaider writing Anomen." No thanks.

 

I'd just prefer if they don't want the romance to just not have flirt options for that character then, unless the refusal is part of some other story arc. (I gave the example of Aveline in DA2 earlier as a way to do it right).

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@LittleKestrel you're not making that up, right? To me it sounds too good and too funny to be true. Damn. :w00t::biggrin::grin:

Yep, it's a thing. Spoilering this for wall of text purposes, also I MAY me wrong with naming some of the lines (they aren't specified in the text) This is a direct copy paste mind you, all I've fixed is the formatting.

 

Iselmyr: "If matters were... otherwise, I could see a lass like me with a right-fine lad like yerself."

 

Iselmyr's smile turns bittersweet.

Eder: "Always thought you were special, too. Shame you're stuck where you are."

 
A quiet moment lingers between them.
     
Iselmyr: "Gets a lass to wonderin'... aw, fye and coxfithers, pay me no heed."
 
Iselmyr turns away, eyes cast down.
 
Eder: "Hey. You can ask me."
 
He touches the back of one of Aloth's hands in reassurance.

Iselmyr: "I've wondered whit it might feel to have yer arms 'twining me. Yer lips on mine."

 
Aloth's ears redden.
 
Eder: "Uh... huh. Didn't think you meant- Wouldn't Aloth mind?"
Iselmyr: "Ye dinnae conne him as I do. Poor lad has a kind, trusting heart. He wants that I should be happy."
Eder: "If that's- if that's how he feels... I want you to be happy, too."
 
He touches the outside of Aloth's hand again.
Aloth's fingers spread and slide into place between Edér's. With Aloth's other hand, Iselmyr reaches up and runs his fingers down Edér's cheek, stepping closer as she does so.
 
Suddenly, Aloth's eyes fly open. 
 
Iselmyr is not behind them.
 
He jumps back, shoving Edér away.

 

Aloth: "What exactly are you doing?"

 

Shock and indignation color his face.

Eder: "Aloth?"
Aloth: "Who else would I be, you idiot?!"
 
Just then, Iselmyr's cackle erupts from his throat.
Iselmyr: "Ooh, yer face, Edér! Only thing finer'n seeing it is feeling this lad's ire!"

 

She laughs even harder.

Iselmyr: "Fye, whit's that I feel? Might it be a kindlin' where-" 
 
Iselmyr's laughs dissolve into a coughing fit from which Aloth finally emerges, furious and red-faced.

 

Aloth: "I think we can all agree to forget that ever happened."

 

He folds his arms and doesn't meet your eye or Edér's.

 

Eder(or Aloth, not sure)"This all makes a lot more sense now, looking back."
 
Edér's face is slack and sober. He blinks rarely, if at all.

Eder: "Oh, now I get it. That's pretty good. Heh."

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Witness41920

Before anyone thinks that I am the one calling the devs having an agenda: No that is not what I am doing.

 

I was merely speculating that it will not take a lot of time before some people do. And I am NOT one of them.

To me the term "agenda" has no value or meaning anymore. Some people use it as a place holder, a label, for "something I don't like".
Everyone is supposed to know that an agenda is something inherently bad. And when you call something an "agenda" you can express your dislike or contempt for something without having to bother to explain why. Again, I am NOT doing that.

I fear, other people might start doing that, based on my experiences on the topic of romances in video games throughout the decades.

I personally would welcome and cherish a romance between Edér and Iselmyr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

@LittleKestrel you're not making that up, right? To me it sounds too good and too funny to be true. Damn. :w00t::biggrin::grin:

Yep, it's a thing. Spoilering this for wall of text purposes, also I MAY me wrong with naming some of the lines (they aren't specified in the text) This is a direct copy paste mind you, all I've fixed is the formatting.

 

Iselmyr: "If matters were... otherwise, I could see a lass like me with a right-fine lad like yerself."

 

Iselmyr's smile turns bittersweet.

Eder: "Always thought you were special, too. Shame you're stuck where you are."

 
A quiet moment lingers between them.
     
Iselmyr: "Gets a lass to wonderin'... aw, fye and coxfithers, pay me no heed."
 
Iselmyr turns away, eyes cast down.
 
Eder: "Hey. You can ask me."
 
He touches the back of one of Aloth's hands in reassurance.

Iselmyr: "I've wondered whit it might feel to have yer arms 'twining me. Yer lips on mine."

 
Aloth's ears redden.
 
Eder: "Uh... huh. Didn't think you meant- Wouldn't Aloth mind?"
Iselmyr: "Ye dinnae conne him as I do. Poor lad has a kind, trusting heart. He wants that I should be happy."
Eder: "If that's- if that's how he feels... I want you to be happy, too."
 
He touches the outside of Aloth's hand again.
Aloth's fingers spread and slide into place between Edér's. With Aloth's other hand, Iselmyr reaches up and runs his fingers down Edér's cheek, stepping closer as she does so.
 
Suddenly, Aloth's eyes fly open. 
 
Iselmyr is not behind them.
 
He jumps back, shoving Edér away.

 

Aloth: "What exactly are you doing?"

 

Shock and indignation color his face.

Eder: "Aloth?"
Aloth: "Who else would I be, you idiot?!"
 
Just then, Iselmyr's cackle erupts from his throat.
Iselmyr: "Ooh, yer face, Edér! Only thing finer'n seeing it is feeling this lad's ire!"

 

She laughs even harder.

Iselmyr: "Fye, whit's that I feel? Might it be a kindlin' where-" 
 
Iselmyr's laughs dissolve into a coughing fit from which Aloth finally emerges, furious and red-faced.

 

Aloth: "I think we can all agree to forget that ever happened."

 

He folds his arms and doesn't meet your eye or Edér's.

 

Eder(or Aloth, not sure)"This all makes a lot more sense now, looking back."
 
Edér's face is slack and sober. He blinks rarely, if at all.

Eder: "Oh, now I get it. That's pretty good. Heh."

 

Omg omg omg omg omg! This is too good! AHAHAHAHA! I love it!!! Damn, I can't wait to see this in the game!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

And then he potentially goes and hooks up with someone who is at best an occasional consciousness in a man's body, so he was either lying to the watcher about his reasons (which is a mean thing to do to someone you respect) or he has been inconsistently written, both of which some people may see as narratively frustrating.

 

 

And here is where the "agenda" kicks it. This is what the game will make you think about. If a man falls in love with a woman who happens to be in the body of a man. Does that make the first man gay? Is he supposed to like other men because he loves a woman inside a man's body?

 

Oh boy... I need actual confirmation on this first before I continue. This is not worth it, if it's all based on speculation. I still hope it's true though!

I don't understand how you could just pass off blatantly contradictory writing that practically retcons itself as people thinking the devs just have an agenda or whatever. You're either trolling or you're a major Obsidian fanboy.

Edited by Fashion Mage
  • Like 1

Be fashionable or be dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

And then he potentially goes and hooks up with someone who is at best an occasional consciousness in a man's body, so he was either lying to the watcher about his reasons (which is a mean thing to do to someone you respect) or he has been inconsistently written, both of which some people may see as narratively frustrating.

 

 

And here is where the "agenda" kicks it. This is what the game will make you think about. If a man falls in love with a woman who happens to be in the body of a man. Does that make the first man gay? Is he supposed to like other men because he loves a woman inside a man's body?

 

Oh boy... I need actual confirmation on this first before I continue. This is not worth it, if it's all based on speculation. I still hope it's true though!

I don't understand how you could just pass off blatantly contradictory writing that practically retcons itself as people thinking the devs just have an agenda or whatever. You're either trolling or you're a major Obsidian fanboy.

 

If you see me that way, why would you address me?

 

If I was a troll then talking to me would be troll feeding. If I was an Obsidian fanboy I would be blind to any criticism at all. So there would be no point in talking to me about something Obsidian may have done wrong.

 

There is no need to get on a personal level here. Please don't make assumptions about me as I won't make any about you. Let's be in peace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK on my second play through I'm going to make Aloth a battle mage and be my main tank while Eder be a squish rogue.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone know for sure is Aloth romance available for men or not?

 

We can meet his former male lover, so it seems like he should be...

 

 

But the information is controversial, and I don't know if my Watcher should wait for him or go for Mia (or none and just enjoy friendship and story :D)

 

 

You mean the prostitute? I got the impression that Aloth rejected him from that conversation.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eder has 16 constitution and 16 might...even as a Rogue he's not super squishy. 

 

Aloth could be an okay tank. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you see me that way, why would you address me?

 

If I was a troll then talking to me would be troll feeding. If I was an Obsidian fanboy I would be blind to any criticism at all. So there would be no point in talking to me about something Obsidian may have done wrong.

 

There is no need to get on a personal level here. Please don't make assumptions about me as I won't make any about you. Let's be in peace.

Just calling it like I see it. I don't see why I shouldn't call out something that there's something wrong with, troll or otherwise.

 

Be in peace? Assumptions? Like how you assumed that everyone's criticisms of the -frankly- poor writing, could just be written off as them thinking the devs have an agenda and that they're just mad that they didn't get what they wanted?

  • Like 2

Be fashionable or be dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I assume that at this point, we pretty much have confirmation that only LIs for straight female Watcher is Aloth and Tekehu?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I apologize to everyone for having contributed in derailing the thread a bit. I hope no harm was done ;)

Of all the romances I'm looking forward to Tekehu's the most. I'm looking forward to meeting him in the game :)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope Eder is actually.romanceable if not now then in the 3 dlcs coming later in the year. One of which is specifically supposed to test your relationships with your companions. Im happy about Aloth, I understand Paleggina as a paladin and infertile godlike not wanting to be in a relationship but for Obsidian to say they want romances and relationship developments to feel natural and then for Eder not to have one will be a punch in the gut. If that is truly the case. Anyone tried romancing him as an Orlan? So far Maia and the other new guy feel very forced and have already both propositioned my watcher and we haven't even been through anything together yet!!!

 

Well, on tumblr Sawyer did say that some characters have no "current interest" (italics are his) so hopefully, that means Eder could be a romance in the dlc or future games. Maybe the "nuance" comes from not romancing other chars if he refuses you at this time. I really, really hope thats the case. They know he was the most anticipated romance, so having him deny the Watcher and potentially hook up with Iselmyr (which is creepy??) is such a **** move.

 

If they were gonna be so bitter about the romance thing why even have it as a stretch goal? 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Think about it, Edér falling for a woman in a man's body. Just the thought of how revolting this could be for some. And you can already hear the word in your mind.

Well, this is sort of revolting, but not for the reasons you stated. By "Aloth is rather unenthused about this and talks to you about it" I can only surmise that he is an unwilling participant in this little threesome, which is obviously not okay.

 

yeah pretty happy my canon and default option is to suppress her. Poor Aloth can't catch a break.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh man, always this drama about romances in a video game.

 

I see it that way, that romances are a topic where the developers simply cannot win/gain anything. They can only lose because no matter what they do, they cannot cater to all tastes, likes and preferences equally. Mind you not only the sexual preferences, but everything that involves the broader topic of romances.

 

In this specific instance there seems that a certain character is not available for romance (though I guess it's not 100% verified yet). Rejection hurts, doesn't it? Even if its just by a fictitious character.

 

Remember Pillars of Eternity 1, where there were no romances at all?

Well seems almost better that way, doesn't it? Because then it's equal for everyone. Nobody will be able to romance any of the NPCs then. But now in Deadfire romances have been introduced, but Edér doesn't seem to be available. Well, shame on the developers!

 

As I see it, the developers were very reluctant to introduce romances to the game series. I may have my suspicions as to why.

All that drama that romances bring. Of course, the drama also happens when you don't include any romances. People will be outraged. So you introduce romances and you hope you will appease people. Oh no ho ho ho, you couldn't have been more wrong!

 

Now people will be enraged because not every single possible preferences (and again I'm not only talking about sexual preference) was included: Edér doesn't seem to be romanceable.

 

Must be an agenda by the devs. How dare they to not cater to my needs? It must be because they want to teach me a lesson! How dare they to teach me a lesson?!

 

That's the great irony of the topic of romance. It creates so much fury, hate, frustration, resentment and contempt that in the end I think any reasonable developer would have to wonder if it's worth it. But don't expect any less contempt when you don't include them in the first place. People will always find a reason to make the devs lose on this topic, no matter what they do.

 

As always, just my subjective opinion, which you may or may not agree to. :)

 

I think you are massively misunderstanding the issue: transparency. Considering the number of people who backed this game and were looking forward to romances, myself among them, the manner in which they portrayed the "relationships" in the game during development comes across as a bit underhanded. I mean, considering that it appears that Eder and Pallegina can't be romanced, with Eder probably being the most sought after romance, it seems slightly mean-spirited/spiteful to say "We've added relationships!" only to reveal that it's not with the characters everyone wanted. If they had been transparent about it, there probably wouldn't have been as much of an issue. If they felt that adding a relationship would be detrimental to the character, or simply did not fit the character's personality, or did not feel confident in their ability to write a decent romance, I'd have no problem, so long as they explained that. However, the fact that they didn't seems like they intentionally mislead people. 

 

Honestly, I'm tempted to say that they didn't mention this specifically to appease the backers who wanted the romances. "Hey, we gave you what you wanted, just not how you wanted it, which essentially means we didn't give you what you want, but thought we were clever about it... Wait, you're mad?"

 

A little honesty goes a long way, and this does not feel honest. Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh, and they intend to do something in one of the DLCs, but if they don't, I feel like there's been a bit of a breach in trust. 

Edited by Durandal.IV
  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I hope Eder is actually.romanceable if not now then in the 3 dlcs coming later in the year. One of which is specifically supposed to test your relationships with your companions. Im happy about Aloth, I understand Paleggina as a paladin and infertile godlike not wanting to be in a relationship but for Obsidian to say they want romances and relationship developments to feel natural and then for Eder not to have one will be a punch in the gut. If that is truly the case. Anyone tried romancing him as an Orlan? So far Maia and the other new guy feel very forced and have already both propositioned my watcher and we haven't even been through anything together yet!!!

 

Well, on tumblr Sawyer did say that some characters have no "current interest" (italics are his) so hopefully, that means Eder could be a romance in the dlc or future games. Maybe the "nuance" comes from not romancing other chars if he refuses you at this time. I really, really hope thats the case. They know he was the most anticipated romance, so having him deny the Watcher and potentially hook up with Iselmyr (which is creepy??) is such a **** move.

 

If they were gonna be so bitter about the romance thing why even have it as a stretch goal? 

 

Do you have the source for that?

 

Agreed. If they weren't going to take it seriously they should've spent those resources elsewhere.

  • Like 1

Be fashionable or be dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eh, I would've liked an Eder romance, but I'm still glad that there are romances in the game.

 

Don't know how many here are diehard Bioware fans or fans of Bioware romances, but if you are, you get that "them's the shakes" with romances. Sometimes all of the ones from one game are great. Other times, they are all duds. Usually it's a mix. Getting the good ones when you get them makes waiting through the not so great ones worthwhile. Given how subjective people's tastes are in this area, everybody will get the short end of the stick sometimes.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I think you are massively misunderstanding the issue: transparency. Considering the number of people who back this game and were looking forward to romances, myself among them, the manner in which they portrayed the "relationships" in the game during development comes across as a bit underhanded. I mean, considering that it appears that Eder and Pallegina can't be romanced, with Eder probably being the most sought after romance, it seems slightly mean-spirited/spiteful to say "We've added relationships!" only to reveal that it's not with the characters everyone wanted. If they had been transparent about it, there probably wouldn't have been as much of an issue. If they felt that adding a relationship would be detrimental to the character, or simply did not fit the character's personality, or did not feel confident in their ability to write a decent romance, I'd have no problem, so long as they explained that. However, the fact that they didn't seems like they intentionally mislead people. 

 

Honestly, I'm tempted to say that they didn't mention this specifically to appease the backers who wanted the romances. "Hey, we gave you what you wanted, just not how you wanted it, which essentially means we didn't give you what you want, but thought we were clever about it... Wait, you're mad?"

 

A little honesty goes a long way, and this does not feel honest. Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh, and they intend to do something in one of the DLCs, but if they don't, I feel like there's been a bit of a breach in trust. 

 

Slightly mean-spirited and spiteful. Seemingly misleading people intentionally.

 

That is not what they get for not including Edér. But for not being transparent about it. Okay. Then I seem to have misunderstand the problem. Is that really the actual problem here? So if the devs explained their decision to not offer Edér as a romance option, it would be okay then?

 

As I said earlier the devs did once say they wouldn't offer romances for characters whose author didn't feel it. But I guess you'd have the specific author of Edér come here and explain thoroughly why Edér isn't available (despite so many people wanting that).

 

I guess more transparency would not hurt. And if it would contribute to put some people's mind at ease, why not?

 

Edited by Fluffle
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For what it's worth, Sawyer also had this to say on the subject:

 

The companions’ sexual preferences were decided by individual writers for their individual characters. If you want to know why a writer developed their companion in a certain way, that’s a question for them.

(Source: https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/173771124776/before-deadfires-release-you-said-that-every)

 

Perhaps whether a companion would even have a romance arc was also something that was up the individual writer's discretion?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are massively misunderstanding the issue: transparency. Considering the number of people who backed this game and were looking forward to romances, myself among them, the manner in which they portrayed the "relationships" in the game during development comes across as a bit underhanded. I mean, considering that it appears that Eder and Pallegina can't be romanced, with Eder probably being the most sought after romance, it seems slightly mean-spirited/spiteful to say "We've added relationships!" only to reveal that it's not with the characters everyone wanted. If they had been transparent about it, there probably wouldn't have been as much of an issue. If they felt that adding a relationship would be detrimental to the character, or simply did not fit the character's personality, or did not feel confident in their ability to write a decent romance, I'd have no problem, so long as they explained that. However, the fact that they didn't seems like they intentionally mislead people. 

 

Honestly, I'm tempted to say that they didn't mention this specifically to appease the backers who wanted the romances. "Hey, we gave you what you wanted, just not how you wanted it, which essentially means we didn't give you what you want, but thought we were clever about it... Wait, you're mad?"

 

A little honesty goes a long way, and this does not feel honest. Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh, and they intend to do something in one of the DLCs, but if they don't, I feel like there's been a bit of a breach in trust. 

 

 

My recollection is that Obsidian was very careful to say "relationships" and not "romances," and that they clarified that not everyone would be romanceable.  I remember that because I was excited about relationships that weren't romances.  My Watcher wants to be bash brothers with Eder and shield sisters with Pallegina, not get into their pants.

Edited by Balbanes
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I've been lurking around this thread and I made an account to jump in.

 

My personal issue with Eder not being a romance option reflects a lot of what has been already said. There is a kind of expectation from consumers that they're getting what they paid for. I understand 'development integrity' as a principle, however, Obsidian developed this game in the Kickstarter fashion - meaning that unlike big AAA companies like Bethesda and Rockstar they're getting their money for development directly from the base rather than fronting it internally and then earning it back later. Just like you don't have to immerse yourself in this fiction if you don't like it, so you don't have to back this game either. There's more pressure to provide results, at least on Obsidian's end, because people would stop believing in the product they provide, and there would as a result be less cashflow for future Kickstarter projects they want people to invest in. It's a give and take relationship, and for something as minor as a romance (especially one that's been as insanely popular and demanded as Eder), it's expected, not a favor. Whether or not you think Eder should or should not have been a romance, it's difficult to deny the principle it's built on, which is fulfilling consumer expectations. Products are designed for consumers, not for anything else (of course, video games can be considered art, which is a whole different can of worms. But from a business perspective, it's designed for the consumers). 

 

I love Obsidian as a developer, that's why I am here. But I'm also a Ron Swanson-esque free market person, and I'm a bit disappointed at this choice.

 

Hopefully it will be included in a future DLC!

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of an explanation, I would've preferred they just straight up said (for people who wanted to know) who was romance-able or not. No explanation would really make me feel better at this point, because I feel like they knew that people wanted certain people to be options and led people on.  I don't mind the fact that Eder (in my case) isn't romance-able. I mind that it was something that I was led to believe could be possible. I know I set myself up for disappointment, but it doesn't change how I feel right now. And some of this could've been avoided if they just flat out said who the options were.

  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My recollection is that Obsidian was very careful to say "relationships" and not "romances," and that they clarified that not everyone would be romanceable.  I remember that because I was excited about relationships that weren't romances.  My Watcher wants to be bash brothers with Eder and shield sisters with Pallegina, not get into their pants.

 

Yeah, which is why I kind of scratched my head when people on other platforms started getting all excited about posting stuff like "Romances are in! We finally get to smooch Edér!" even though that was never said? Even though they specifically said it's about relationships, not necessarily romances.

 

Seems like a lot of people deliberately hyped themselves up on something they imagined must be in just because they want it so bad. The devs aren't really to blame for anyone's disappointment on that matter.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just calling it like I see it. I don't see why I shouldn't call out something that there's something wrong with, troll or otherwise.

It probably has something to do with the forum rules. 

 

"We ask that the users of this board treat one another with respect, even when opinions differ. Personal attacks that are intended to cause unwanted attention, embarrassment, or harm will not be tolerated."

 

We ask that you deal with individual's posts, not try to psychoanalyze the poster's reasons for posting.  Trolling is against the forums rules, so if you feel a post is trolling, please report it for the moderator team to deal with rather than taking on your self to deal with.  Doing so in threads is how perfectly good threads get derailed into oblivion.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...