What does everybody think about Blaster Casters in deadfire?

[LampStaple]

So in pillars 1 casters could be gods, spamming shadowflames to annihilate bosses and stacking shining beacons and storms of holy fire to obliterate the thickest of mobs. But with massively bloated casting times in deadfire, is it still possible? Cleave-capable melee characters can do the same amount of damage as spells without expending resources and also attacking faster, in addition to being sturdier. How can my priest of magran or evocation wizard compare to a barbarian's carnage or a greatsword fighter's cleave stance?

[dunehunter]

So in pillars 1 casters could be gods, spamming shadowflames to annihilate bosses and stacking shining beacons and storms of holy fire to obliterate the thickest of mobs. But with massively bloated casting times in deadfire, is it still possible? Cleave-capable melee characters can do the same amount of damage as spells without expending resources and also attacking faster, in addition to being sturdier. How can my priest of magran or evocation wizard compare to a barbarian's carnage or a greatsword fighter's cleave stance?

Sadly I don’t think u can compete with a well build fighter or Barbarian without spamming Empowered spells. Almost all wizard blasts have 3-4.5 cast time, and it doesn’t do more damage than warrior AOE abilities, which is instant cast.

Btw cleave is full attack so dual wielding is better than 2h sword.

Edited May 6, 2018 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

Like in PoE the true power of casters is not within their single nukes but with the combinations of effects you can achieve with them.

 

One example: Take Pull of Eora + Binding Web. A whole group of enemies will be crammed into a circle and can't get out unless they resist a fort and a reflex attack. Other party members can then lay waste with Blast, Carnage, Cleaving, nukes and so on.

 

Summon six skeletons with your Beckoner, let Xoti cast Spark the Souls while Aloth casts Combusting Wounds.

 

Stuff like that.

 

Those effects that can break the game if you combine then with a bit of creativity.

 

Like in PoE casters will be seen as lame (look at all those complaints a la "wizards are useless!" when PoE came out even though they had complete tier mastery instead of spell mastery) - and after a while it became common to place the casters on the top of PoE's food chain.

 

I assume it will be the same in Deadfire. Once people start to figure out the rad combos the perception will change.

[Maxzero]

Like in PoE the true power of casters is not within their single nukes but with the combinations of effects you can achieve with them.

 

One example: Take Pull of Eora + Binding Web. A whole group of enemies will be crammed into a circle and can't get out unless they resist a fort and a reflex attack. Other party members can then lay waste with Blast, Carnage, Cleaving, nukes and so on.

 

Summon six skeletons with your Beckoner, let Xoti cast Spark the Souls while Aloth casts Combusting Wounds.

 

Stuff like that.

 

Those effects that can break the game if you combine then with a bit of creativity.

 

Like in PoE casters will be seen as lame (look at all those complaints a la "wizards are useless!" when PoE came out even though they had complete tier mastery instead of spell mastery) - and after a while it became common to place the casters on the top of PoE's food chain.

 

I assume it will be the same in Deadfire. Once people start to figure out the rad combos the perception will change.

 

Honestly I think casters will be even better. In PoE 1 you could only do those combo's in a big fights (due to needing to rest) whereas now you can do them every fight.

 

I mean in PoE1 Chill Fog pretty much carried my entire party in the early game all on its own.

[Boeroer]

It's a common misconception that 2/encounter (and slower cast) is more powerful than 4/rest (and faster cast).

 

But I still think after the latest adjustments to casting times and with the proper use of PL and Empower they will be in a good place.

[dunehunter]

It's a common misconception that 2/encounter (and slower cast) is more powerful than 4/rest (and faster cast).

 

But I still think after the latest adjustments to casting times and with the proper use of PL and Empower they will be in a good place.

 

True, PoE 1 is the very exactly old AD&D style, where casters being super powerful late game. Deadfire makes a better job balancing caster and meleer.

[Maxzero]

It's a common misconception that 2/encounter (and slower cast) is more powerful than 4/rest (and faster cast).

 

But I still think after the latest adjustments to casting times and with the proper use of PL and Empower they will be in a good place.

 

Depends on how often you rested. Fast cast does not mean anything if you have nothing to cast.

[Yenkaz]

What would be a good (not min maxed) stat distribution? It seems like dex has increased in importance due to fewer, but not per rest, spells - meaning you also want to be churning them out at a good pace.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Yenkaz

[JerekKruger]

Depends on how often you rested. Fast cast does not mean anything if you have nothing to cast.

 

The point is that in the fights that mattered you'd pretty much always go in fully rested and the ability to vomit your spell book made the "Vancian" casters extremely powerful. Sure if you're not rest spamming you'll be less powerful against the easy encounters in a dungeon: but they're easy anyway.

[Maxzero]

 

Depends on how often you rested. Fast cast does not mean anything if you have nothing to cast.

 

The point is that in the fights that mattered you'd pretty much always go in fully rested and the ability to vomit your spell book made the "Vancian" casters extremely powerful. Sure if you're not rest spamming you'll be less powerful against the easy encounters in a dungeon: but they're easy anyway.

 

 

Again depends on how often you rested. Even with easy encounters how many can you go through without needing a rest especially early on?

 

I wonder how many 'easy' encounters were easy because people were always rested (or close to it) when they encountered them.

 

While current PotD difficulty is messed up once it is fixed by taking resting out of the power calculations it allows Obsidian to push encounter design much harder because party power levels are much more consistant.

 

Vancian spellcasting makes this messed up balance system where your casters do nothing for 90% of the fights and then 90% of the work for 10% of the fights. Good riddence to a dated mechanic well past it's use by date.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Maxzero

[JerekKruger]

Well I did the opposite of rest spamming (I tried to only rest when needed) and the above describes my experience of PotD.

[Maxzero]

Well I did the opposite of rest spamming (I tried to only rest when needed) and the above describes my experience of PotD.

 

But should encounter difficulty be balanced around how often you rested? I was the same and it felt so artificial.

 

Now I don't need to worry about it I can engage an encounter using my full resources knowing that it is balanced around me doing so.

 

Caster's would never be balanced under vancian. It's impossible because their power levels just varied so much based on the whim of the user.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Maxzero

[JerekKruger]

I wasn't arguing that per rest is a better system, I was just arguing that, when it mattered, it was far more powerful.

 

That said I'm not sure per encounter is such an amazing system. First off it takes away from the original design of the "Vancian" casters - more tactical flexibility at the expense of per rest - vs. Ciphers and Chanters with their theoretically unlimited casts. More importantly it's likely to result in always using the same abilities again and again and never anything else. Particularly at high levels I suspect we'll see cease to see low level powers used at all (in contrast to Ciphers and Chanters who can cast low level abilities for lower cost).

 

If they are going to use a per encounter system I'd much prefer one with varying costs for different spell levels: essentially a mana system.

[Maxzero]

I wasn't arguing that per rest is a better system, I was just arguing that, when it mattered, it was far more powerful.

 

That said I'm not sure per encounter is such an amazing system. First off it takes away from the original design of the "Vancian" casters - more tactical flexibility at the expense of per rest - vs. Ciphers and Chanters with their theoretically unlimited casts. More importantly it's likely to result in always using the same abilities again and again and never anything else. Particularly at high levels I suspect we'll see cease to see low level powers used at all (in contrast to Ciphers and Chanters who can cast low level abilities for lower cost).

 

If they are going to use a per encounter system I'd much prefer one with varying costs for different spell levels: essentially a mana system.

 

You know I don't disagree that Wizards, Druids and Priests would probably be better off with a more flexible resource system. Although with the power level scaling system there is still some merit for some lower levels spells.

 

Maybe for PoE 3 we could see a new 'mana' system but I feel this system is definately a step in the right direction and much better then the system in PoE 1.

 

Of course some will disagree.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Maxzero

[Shakyr]

Like in PoE the true power of casters is not within their single nukes but with the combinations of effects you can achieve with them.

 

Temporal Cocoon (Wizard, + a bunch of DoTs. That one caught my eye, looking at the classes vid, as a nice way to lock up an enemy and deal some decent damage to them.