Ship crew mechanics disappointing...

[Guest]

Because you aren’t a troll

[SonicMage117]

If moderators message me to tell me that my thread won't be deleted and that I've done nothing wrong, I'm obviously not the troll but this is the internet after all, you are free to believe whatever you wish, even when all evidence points to the contrary.

[Guest]

Wow. That seems like quite the reversal for you, considering this thread started with your orders and instructions re: how to feel about ship mechanics in Deadfire. So confusing.

[SonicMage117]

As I said before in a prior comment, members confuse themselves. It's no biggie, since I'm the OP, I must stay true to knowing what I write and more importantly what I mean when I write it. I undrstand that not everyone gathers the same context of action or response, so with that mindset I can only do my best without settling for streamlining the thread and latter engagement.

 

As far as saying Deadfire is inferior to Sunless Sea in terms of crew and the mechanics and overall freedom that surrounds it, Idk, I don't think that it was trolling but I guess I understand how if that annoyed/offended someone they'd see it as trolling. I did respect members to the best of my ability to explain the differences (in detail) though. Even with that, I also understand that no matter how informative my comments are, some will never appreciate or respect enough or at all and that's totally okay. Diversity is good. It would be too much to ask if everyone agreed on a given subject

[Celeras]

Besides keeping your crew well fed and kept, which is a trait in these types of games, there are a few things I will list to which insists makes Deadfire's ship crew mechanics inferior. I won't touch the basics becaue all 3 games I listed in my original post seem to be vastly similar as far as basic functions and mechanics outline goes.

 

*Crew can degress morally, causing them to get sick, physically or mentally. They can be driven insane or panick and kill off the other crew members or even the captain. Disease is plentiful, but insanity can be even more plentiful.

 

*Crew can act for themselves and make decisions for themselves. If the sea or battles get to be too much, they will abandon ship without permissible cause or intent of captain/admiral.

 

*Crew may be limited to 2 crew members if a barrage is successful, but must be at least 3 crew memebers if a barrage is not successful. So there lies a penalty for not being successful.

 

*Crew capacity is based off of what type of ship you are using. Thus, upgrading or building unto your ship avails room for more crew, which is logical I suppose.

 

*Prize crew for abandoned or comendeered vessel which allows you to set to follow, lay waste, or go to dock. This can be used to multiply your crew or minimize it. You may store members for later use. You will not have a party of two or three in Sunless Sea as you do in Sid Meiers Pirates but you will have a spare ship or what may.

 

*Crew are free to kill themselves in different ways, if so choose. Of course, they must be driven to this point. They can stab themselves, shoot themselves, hang themselves or jump ship and sacrifice themselves to what lies beneath.

 

*Ship romances lead to having a baby/kid on board. This changes the morality a bit and can manipulate/change the dialouge a bit. As one who played countless hours of Sunless Sea, I was surprised at how exactly it changed my prerspective of the game as well as any other who has played it.

 

*Ship jobs are more varied and realistic in Sunless Sea. You have cook, doctor, musician, weapon master, etc. Each one has a specific job based on attributes and stats to drive them to be better at one task than another member so this makes it a bit more realistic easily.

 

*The morality and reputation system of Sunless Sea is very evolved and has an effect on how crew reacts and behaves on ship as well as off ship. If you have a master thief in your party, they may steal for you while in London but may steal from you if on ship and hungry. A seducttress may attempt to seduce you and kill you in your sleep in order to take control of the vessel. The crew could mutinize you if you are abusive or neglectful or make promises you cannot keep.

 

Can not speak about rank specifics yet though since as far as I know, Obsidian hasn't explained too much about the rank system. I do know that Sunless Sea has a very complex rank system that makes sense though. Promotion is a powerful motivator and demotion can send some off the rail.

 

Most of these seem more suited to a game in which you spend most of your time on and interacting with the ship. In Pillars, theres a lot of other 'stuff' in the game to divide your attention. I feel like the simpler approach to ship mechanics is much better for a game like Pillars. Plus, theres always a limited amount of development resources so it doesn't make a lot of sense to put so much time into developing such intricate systems for a part of the game that is basically an optional mechanic for a lot of players.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Celeras

[Heijoushin]

So... I haven't really been playing much since the last patch (been busy with life), but based off my limited experience, there's one tiny thing that bothers me about the ship crew, and it has nothing to do with the mechanics. What bothers me is that you can't talk to or interact with any of your crew members while on deck
If you can't talk to them, they just feel like soul-less collections of number/stats. It's the same problem as with the stronghold in PoE1. You can see they've thought a lot about mechanics, but it's all so mechanical that it feels like a cellphone game and not a roleplaying experience. Even if it's typical RPG one-liners, let us talk to our crew!!

Edited March 4, 2018 by Heijoushin

[Lamppost in Winter]

What bothers me is that you can't talk to or interact with any of your crew members while on deck

Where are we getting this? I know you can't talk to them in the current beta, but I assumed that was just a beta thing.

[TheisEjsing]

@SonicMage117 I'm not talking about this topic, personally I don't see any baits here. But the "I can't help what people read out of my purely innocent, and constructive words" stick is getting old. You almost always clearly mean to provoke, but that's not forbidden, so keep on doing your thing, even if it's toxic. 

Edited March 4, 2018 by TheisEjsing

[SonicMage117]

That would be odd if you cannot talk to them in the full game.. I always thought giving orders/requests would be more rewarding if done by dialogue, being an rpg.

 

Also, conversing with crew after a ship-duel should be a must. Hopefully they add it and it's not just limited to conversing with the crew as a whole with something like:

 

"You talk to the crew.

 

The crew screams HURRAY! As you win your first battle"

 

Because that would be boring. Direct conversation with individual crew members would be nice, please!

[Heijoushin]

 

What bothers me is that you can't talk to or interact with any of your crew members while on deck

Where are we getting this? I know you can't talk to them in the current beta, but I assumed that was just a beta thing.

 

It's not confirmed, but considering we couldn't speak to the mercenaries in Caed Nua, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

 

As Sonic says, it would be better to give orders directly (for certain things at least), via dialogue, like in Neverwinter Nights 2.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Heijoushin

[Guest]

I also understand that no matter how informative my comments are

Not really

[Wormerine]

I must, say I am not terribly interested in what my deckhands have to say after getting showered with cannonballs.

[SonicMage117]

 

I also understand that no matter how informative my comments are

 

Not really

If you say so

[SonicMage117]

Anyway. Here's a couple nice little videos of 'Sunless Sea' which showcases how well it portrays crew management and interactivity:

 

 

Since some of you may not know what Sunless Sea is, it's a heavy dialogue single player game on Steam, a bit more of an rpg than Pillars fr tge sheer fact that it offefs more freedom. The game is mostly literary and some pictures... basically a few novels worth of reading which means hundreds of outcomes.

 

(It's probably why dialogue is better presented and more important than the little gameplay it allows.)

 

And so, if you care to watch the videos, you may see where I am coming from and why what I have been saying may be a bigger deal than some would have you believe.

 

Thank you all for your responses, this actually gave me an idea for my next thread!

[Guest]

It will only be a big deal for people who decide to compare the two games because they both have boats in them.

[Gromnir]

Because you aren’t a troll

keep in mind, has been literal years since last Gromnir received a moderator message... and that were an apology.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[SonicMage117]

It will only be a big deal for people who decide to compare the two games because they both have boats in them.

Well, crew mechanics and interactivity, as much of the games have in common but yes, that's more or less what I said in my original post.

[Fardragon]

This thread does seem a little pointlessly fractious and childish...

 

I haven't played the beta, but I do think that it is important that the ship crew mechanics should not be as involved than a game which has ship management as it's main focus (such as Sunless Sea), since it then becomes a distraction from the core game. If it's more complex than the old Pirates! game, then I'm concerned that it is too​ complex, and runs the risk of becoming a distraction, like the Stronghold in PoE1.

[rjshae]

A positive I see from this approach is that we won't have to spend half the game waiting for two ships to close the distance. Just get it over with and move to the good stuff; boarding actions or sailing onward. The developers have kept it simple enough to speed up the game, but detailed enough to provide some tactical decision making and make social interactions (crew recruitment, &c.) more worthwhile. It seems fine to me, but I'll have to wait to play it before knowing for certain.

[SonicMage117]

@Fardragon

Well, you may not like the fact that it is far more complex than the old "Sid Meier's Pirates!" then, and as stated before, sailing isn't the core gameplay but is a very integral part of Deadfire.

 

As to whether it will be a bigger part of the game compared to strongholds, the answer is yes. That's why the dedicated the last update to the ships alone. And they've made everything to do with the ships more complex since the beta, adding new things to broaden the experience as they go. People are going to spend much more time on ships than they think and more time in/on ships than they did in strongholds. I wouldn't doubt some players will spend more time on ships than on foot upon game's full release since it's been deemed you can certainly do so.

 

Edit: Also, something tells me at least one of the dlc may have a heavy emphasis on ships/naval warfare.

Edited March 4, 2018 by SonicMage117

[Wormerine]

If it's more complex than the old Pirates! game, then I'm concerned that it is too​ complex, and runs the risk of becoming a distraction, like the Stronghold in PoE1.

It is not. There are some things you can do in PoE that you can't do in Pirates! (like that you have to give orders to crew manually) but it is not a more complex ship game. That said Pirates! wasn't terribly complex. The way world was systemic and changed as factions fought for control was neat, but core mechanics were realyl basic. 

[SonicMage117]

Yeah, Sid Meier's Pirates is probably the simplest it gets - though there are most likely a few lesser known games who may do these things even simpler all while Sunless Sea is about the most complex and carefully thought out that we have seen as far as sailing in gaming. Another simplified sailing game would be Abandon Ship but for different reasons. I would never classify Sunless Sea solely as strictly a sailing game, since (like Deadfire) there is actually much more for the player to do in a city than on ship.

 

Obsidian seems to be doing a well enough job with adding to Deadfire's ship and crew mechanics but very limiting. I suppose it's hard for them to find the perfect balance which is understandable. Especially on the conclusion that Deadfire has alot of experimental systems to begin with which makes harder for focusing on advancing the systems to work in conjunction, as far as if anyone will be completely satisfied vs to those who say they're already satisfied with what has not been offered, I'll leave the chips where they lay. Can't wait to hear everyone's thoughts, as well as on other forums as for me it's an interesting thing to look at.

[Fardragon]

The Secret of Monkey Island had the best pirate simulation game mechanics.

 

"You fight like a cow!"

[IndiraLightfoot]

Repeat that, and I'll udderly destroy you!

[Wormerine]

Overall, I am really confused. What is this thread about? There are mentiones of three games now, without mention how we should compare them to each other. Each game represents a different genres and the only common motif is that they have ships in them.