The Black Jacket (and the increase of proficiency points)

[Boeroer]

Heyda!

So Josh said that each character will get a proficiency point every third level instead of every fourth in the next iteration.

Now - it may be they did that because they also planned to put universal talents into the proficiency screen - so that would make sense.

But if they don't do that for some reason we will see a certain inflation of proficiencies on characters and especally in the party.

The notorious Black Jacket is already considered a weak subclass by most users here (this can also be discussed here bythe way. I'm interested in all proposals how to make him better without changing then theme of the class that evolves around "versatility").

However, one of Black Jackets' "advantages" besides an additional weapon slot and faster switching is than they get additional weapon proficiencies. But the global increase of proficiency points waters down this advantage quite a bit - so this subclass is even weaker than before.

What do you think? And what can be done? And why has nobody at OBS reacted to the criticism of the Black Jacket?

P.S.: And will there be a Black Jacket (named "The Black Jacket's Black Jacket") in the game that we can find/buy/loot (preferably from the Black Isle Bastards of course) and that is only wearable by Black Jackets? And will Jack Black have a cameo as a Black Jacket in said Black Jacket? I hope so...
 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Boeroer

[Soulmojo]

I dabbled a bit with black jacket some time ago.

 

I was trying to play under the assumption that i have to equip different weapons for different damage types.

 

Well truth is this requires a rather unorthodox playstyle.

 

Meaning what you want is dual damage weapons and guns. Scepters or guns, greatswords and swords and shields specifically.

 

Greatsword you use when you need to do a ton of damage in one swing. 

scepters to dual wield and to attack from ranged, when you cannot reach someone, or you need extra armor pierce. (scepters are great) or arquebus. whatever is your preference.

sword and shield when you need to be defensive.

 

The strength is that you can adapt to literally every situation. Tank when you need, do ranged when it is better, dps with greatsword in melee when you can.

 

Or equip multiple guns, shot ->switch->shot->switch etc.

think about the alpha strike you can unleash to the enemy.

The fighter has disciplined strike of which you have the highest chance to score a hit due to conversion. The basis for arquebus.

 

One fun fact, that warrior dual wield style, two handed style, and single weapon style applies to ranged weapons (tested). 

 

Another fun fact is if you attack with silent ranged weapons or spells from stealth it does not break stealth. so essentially you can remain safe.

There is a reason there is the sound effect listed in the descriptions of abilites in other stuff.

 

So all in all there are plenty of  chance to abuse black jacket. Basically Black jacket is the dedicated 'commando class' in the game.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Soulmojo

[IndiraLightfoot]

Wouldn't it be cool if black jackets could use consumables, potions and other quick items (within reason) without any recovery, like super-fast, on top of their weapon switching?

It would be really fitting.

Edited February 19, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[Soulmojo]

Wouldn't it be cool if black jackets instead could use consumables, potions and other quick items (within reason) without any recovery, like super-fast, on top of their weapon switching?

It would be really fitting.

well I could certanly see some focus towards grenades and explosives. You just have to spec for mechanics.

 

One black jacket to the other:

Where did you received your special forces training?

Dyrwood. You?

Ruatiai.

I knew it. You use explosives like no other!

 

:)

Edited February 19, 2018 by Soulmojo

[dunehunter]

Attacking with silent ranged weapon doesn’t break stealth ?

[Soulmojo]

Attacking with silent ranged weapon doesn’t break stealth ?

 

It definitely works with spells. My priest remained in stealth while casting spells the whole fight.

I didn't tested it with weapons honestly. will do today.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

The name Black Jacket is too cool to let it dwindle away as a lost opportunity.

Alright - keywords:

Bad ass longcoat flaring open, stuffed with throw-away weapons, explosive devices, contraptions and other cool contraband!

 

EDIT: Suggestions: Setting and removing traps very quickly, and in combat!

Fast use of bombs and contraptions as quick items (and I'd love to see potions too - perhaps a black jacket transfers them into special Black Jacket syringes instead!!!)

Put a healing potion as a quick item in one of the Black Jacket's quick slots, and it temporarily transforms into a healing syringe, for instance, or any other potion.

 

I'd play this class over and over, if this was the case.

Edited February 19, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[CottonWolf]

If it were me, I'd have given them a flat damage/pen bonus for x seconds after switching weapons and offset it with a damage/pen penalty for not having switched weapons in y seconds, with x<y.

 

To keep it in theme, you could even make it so you only get the bonus/avoid the malus if the weapon you're switching to falls under a different proficiency to the weapon you were using before.

Edited February 19, 2018 by CottonWolf

[Nail]

For me black jacket will always look like this:

[Soulmojo]

For me black jacket will always look like this:

 

Yeah that jacket... And we know it can survive a nuclear holocaust.

[Soulmojo]

Attacking with silent ranged weapon doesn’t break stealth ?

 

 Ok I definitely said some stupid things. But it came with some truth.

 

So all weapon attack, ability or spell, which harms an enemy breaks stealth. I tested it with ranged weapons, priest and wizard spells.

I am sorry If I spread misinformation.

 

BUT. If your character is in stealth, If you cast defensive spells, and buffs e.g healing, bless disciplined barrage etc. those will not break stealth.

 

This is why I came to the false assumption of quiet abilites does not break stealth. This last weekend when I did combat, My wizard and priest remained in stealth during the combat although they casted spells. This is where my mistake came.

Anyhow it is good to know that casting purely defensive stuff keeps stealth.

[Nixl]

I believe what hurts the Black Jacket is the way armor penetration rating works with weapons, and the result is there is very little reason to switch weapons.  A Full Penetration strike (penetration value twice that of the armor rating) yields a 30% damage boost.  In additional, attacks with an insufficient penetration rating receives from 25% to 75% damage reduction.  

 

With those two factors in mind, now compare weapons with high penetration versus weapons with low(er) penetration rating.  Generally, I found that weapons with higher penetration rating values typically have lower actual damage, whereas low(er) penetration rating weapons typically have higher damage values.  For example, an estoc has a pen rating of 10 and a damage rating of 18-26, whereas a greatsword has a penetration rating of 6 and a damage rating of 26-32.    

 

One would expect the difference in damage values would strike a balance, but an estoc really is the safer bet.  With an estoc, you have an better chance to reach a full penetration strike with an estoc (30% increased damage), and less of a risk running into a damage penalty for insufficient penetration rating.  A full penetration strike practically mitigates the damage difference between estoc and the greatsword.   Arguably, you could stack enough armor penetration from other sources to make greatswords a superior choice, but you would need meta-game knowledge of enemy armor values in advance to make that decision.  

 

Other than to equip a weapon with an even higher penetration rating, why switch weapons?  Just stack armor penetration for consistent 30% increased damage.  Consequently, I truly believe removing that full penetration strike would help even the weapons out.  Reduced damage is more than enough reason to switch weapons, why snowball the need for armor penetration rating with a 30% damage buff?        

 

Edit:  Also, I do not know if there is a reason to ever not want to dual-wield weapons, but that may be another discussion.  

Edited February 19, 2018 by Nixl

[FreeKaner]

It might be best to just remove the damage bonus for excess penetration.

[Boeroer]

I compared a Black Jacket/Sharpshooter with 4 weapon setsand 8 blunderbusses and a Devoted/Sharpshooter with 3 weapons sets and 6 bluderbusses. The 6 shots from the Devoted do more damage (combined) than the 8 shots from the Black Jacket. That's because Devoted's PEN bonus and Sharpshooter's PEN bonus stack. +4 PEN with blunderbuss (you get 15 PEN with a crit with a fine blunderbuss then) is better than the two additional shots. So even in this regard the Black Jacket is not necessarily the best fighter option.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Boeroer

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Is there anyway to give them a bonus pen or accuracy when attacking certain armor weaknesses?

[dunehunter]

I believe what hurts the Black Jacket is the way armor penetration rating works with weapons, and the result is there is very little reason to switch weapons.  A Full Penetration strike (penetration value twice that of the armor rating) yields a 30% damage boost.  In additional, attacks with an insufficient penetration rating receives from 25% to 75% damage reduction.  

 

With those two factors in mind, now compare weapons with high penetration versus weapons with low(er) penetration rating.  Generally, I found that weapons with higher penetration rating values typically have lower actual damage, whereas low(er) penetration rating weapons typically have higher damage values.  For example, an estoc has a pen rating of 10 and a damage rating of 18-26, whereas a greatsword has a penetration rating of 6 and a damage rating of 26-32.    

 

One would expect the difference in damage values would strike a balance, but an estoc really is the safer bet.  With an estoc, you have an better chance to reach a full penetration strike with an estoc (30% increased damage), and less of a risk running into a damage penalty for insufficient penetration rating.  A full penetration strike practically mitigates the damage difference between estoc and the greatsword.   Arguably, you could stack enough armor penetration from other sources to make greatswords a superior choice, but you would need meta-game knowledge of enemy armor values in advance to make that decision.  

 

Other than to equip a weapon with an even higher penetration rating, why switch weapons?  Just stack armor penetration for consistent 30% increased damage.  Consequently, I truly believe removing that full penetration strike would help even the weapons out.  Reduced damage is more than enough reason to switch weapons, why snowball the need for armor penetration rating with a 30% damage buff?        

 

Edit:  Also, I do not know if there is a reason to ever not want to dual-wield weapons, but that may be another discussion.  

 

You know that the overpenetration bonus is an addtive right? So if you are a rogue doing sneak attack with an exceptional weapon, you actually don't get +30% damage, but something like +10% from overpenetration. So with the low base damage of high penetration weapon, it becomes totally meaningless to use them.

 

If they don't change overpenetraion bonus to a seperate multiplier bonus, imo there is NO reason to use high pen weapons like war hammer and estoc.

[CottonWolf]

 

I believe what hurts the Black Jacket is the way armor penetration rating works with weapons, and the result is there is very little reason to switch weapons.  A Full Penetration strike (penetration value twice that of the armor rating) yields a 30% damage boost.  In additional, attacks with an insufficient penetration rating receives from 25% to 75% damage reduction.  

 

With those two factors in mind, now compare weapons with high penetration versus weapons with low(er) penetration rating.  Generally, I found that weapons with higher penetration rating values typically have lower actual damage, whereas low(er) penetration rating weapons typically have higher damage values.  For example, an estoc has a pen rating of 10 and a damage rating of 18-26, whereas a greatsword has a penetration rating of 6 and a damage rating of 26-32.    

 

One would expect the difference in damage values would strike a balance, but an estoc really is the safer bet.  With an estoc, you have an better chance to reach a full penetration strike with an estoc (30% increased damage), and less of a risk running into a damage penalty for insufficient penetration rating.  A full penetration strike practically mitigates the damage difference between estoc and the greatsword.   Arguably, you could stack enough armor penetration from other sources to make greatswords a superior choice, but you would need meta-game knowledge of enemy armor values in advance to make that decision.  

 

Other than to equip a weapon with an even higher penetration rating, why switch weapons?  Just stack armor penetration for consistent 30% increased damage.  Consequently, I truly believe removing that full penetration strike would help even the weapons out.  Reduced damage is more than enough reason to switch weapons, why snowball the need for armor penetration rating with a 30% damage buff?        

 

Edit:  Also, I do not know if there is a reason to ever not want to dual-wield weapons, but that may be another discussion.  

 

You know that the overpenetration bonus is an addtive right? So if you are a rogue doing sneak attack with an exceptional weapon, you actually don't get +30% damage, but something like +10% from overpenetration. So with the low base damage of high penetration weapon, it becomes totally meaningless to use them.

 

If they don't change overpenetraion bonus to a seperate multiplier bonus, imo there is NO reason to use high pen weapons like war hammer and estoc.

 

Apart from the fact that they'll be the weapons actually penetrating the high AR enemies?

[Boeroer]

Doesn't matter if the lesser base damage + bonus from overpenetration leads to the same end result as with a weapon that has higher base dmaage but gets a malus from underpenetration. 

[Nixl]

 

 

 

You know that the overpenetration bonus is an addtive right? So if you are a rogue doing sneak attack with an exceptional weapon, you actually don't get +30% damage, but something like +10% from overpenetration. So with the low base damage of high penetration weapon, it becomes totally meaningless to use them.

 

If they don't change overpenetraion bonus to a seperate multiplier bonus, imo there is NO reason to use high pen weapons like war hammer and estoc.

 

I would think better avoidance of the AR penalties by itself is more than enough reason to keep high pen weapons, such as the warhammer or estoc.  If I recall correctly, you can have your damage reduced by 25%, 50%, or 75%.  At that point, I do not think you need 30% bonus damage, additive or not, to compel people to use warhammers or estocs.   

[Boeroer]

That also depends on the average enemies' AR.

[Nixl]

That also depends on the average enemies' AR.

I agree to an extent, there are a lot of unknowns.  I still do not see the necessity of 30% full penetration strike.  It just seems unnecessary, and I have an aversion to such mechanics.  

[dunehunter]

That also depends on the average enemies' AR.

 

Exactly, and also depends on how much penetration buff you get access to. Not to mention that Josh wanna boost average penetration of weapon by 2 in next beta, I feel even less urge to use high pen weapon after.

[Boeroer]

But in beta3 the high PEN weapons like estoc and hammer and such got a base damage upgrade (others as well, but to a lesser extend).

[morhilane]

Is it weird that I personally would have reduced the amount of proficiency gained instead of increasing it? I find one every four level to be too much already, I have no idea what I'm going to do with one every three levels. Maybe if there was a negative impact in using a weapon without the proficiency it might be better, but as it is now you just do it to have a modal that might be useless or only useless in certain conditions.

 

And yeah, it reduce the Black Jacket utility even more, not that anyone was going to run that sub-class anyway. I'm wonder why Josh is concentrating so much on the idea that players should switch weapons. It failed in POE1 from what I can see. They aren't going to do it in POE2, they are just going to focus on getting enough Pen to not sucks. Nobody wants the hassles of having to switch weapons outside maybe ranged vs melee. It's a dead end design.

[Boeroer]

I feel the same.

 

I mean it can be cool to be able to pick the perfectly suitable weapon at the start of an encounter - but I seldomly switch during a fight. So I guess the Black Jacket just needs something more than just quicker switch and an additional slot.