Remember your noob years?

[Katphood]

Did anybody ever visit the London Trocadero back in the 90's(I don't know how the place looks like nowadays)?

 

It had a floor full of arcade machines. The few times I visited that place it felt like outer space! It even had VR:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP8wSw4bBuA

[SonicMage117]

Today, all I see is fetch quests, pretty fetch quests, gated quests, triggers you are walking in, and variables switching. All the magic is gone and instead replaced with pretty graphics and cutscenes. Everything is so mechanical and "designed". Meh.

Maybe we are playings two totally different types of rpg's but I'd have to disagree, respectfully. Rpg's back then had the same issues then as they do now, the event triggers and other mechanics existed and operated in the same manner then as they do now. There is just as many hand-holding rpg's now as there was then too though.

 

I think the biggest change I have witnessed over the years is that games have only drastically improved in storytelling thanks to writers crafting more invested and relatable stories.

[Lexx]

Well, I'm not saying that RPGs back then were drastically different, but that I lacked the experience to notice all of that (which kinda is what this thread is about.. the "noob years"). Even the most simple fetch quest looked interesting, while today I notice it exactly for what it is: A simple fetch quest with not much work spend on it.

 

Let's take Fallout 1 as example.

 

After level 5 you are able to help Irwine in the Hub to get rid of the Raiders on his farm. Back in the days I never thought much about it. I liked this quest, because it was action and you got a cool reward for doing it. When looking at it today I see that it's simply a (not very complex and detailed) map with some mobs dropped in. Heck, they don't even react in any way on the player except for activating combat. There is no dialog, no movement, no nothing. It would take me literally 15 minutes to put such a quest into my Fo2 mod, no hyperbole.

 

On the other hand, if this quest would have been done today, they probably would have worked down a checklist for things you *have* to be able to do in this location, which, while making it much deeper than the original, also feels more mechanical, more checklist-esque, if that makes any sense. It would probably lack creativity in a unique way and instead offer exactly what you expect for such a quest to offer: Combat, stealth, diplomatic path. I'm not saying this is bad, it's just predictable.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Lexx

[Mamoulian War]

 

Today, all I see is fetch quests, pretty fetch quests, gated quests, triggers you are walking in, and variables switching. All the magic is gone and instead replaced with pretty graphics and cutscenes. Everything is so mechanical and "designed". Meh.

Maybe we are playings two totally different types of rpg's but I'd have to disagree, respectfully. Rpg's back then had the same issues then as they do now, the event triggers and other mechanics existed and operated in the same manner then as they do now. There is just as many hand-holding rpg's now as there was then too though.

 

I think the biggest change I have witnessed over the years is that games have only drastically improved in storytelling thanks to writers crafting more invested and relatable stories.

I have to completely disagree on the last paragraph. The storytelling is worse than ever before, with very few notable exceptions, most of them Indies and Japanese games, which do not care about graphics fidelity. Bioware for example copies over and over same story, but with different protagonists. In the AAA west, storytelling is just third grade thing, that no publishers care about. The priority is now Monetization and Graphics, everything else is just unwanted sink of money for them...

[Katphood]

Well, I'm not saying that RPGs back then were drastically different, but that I lacked the experience to notice all of that (which kinda is what this thread is about.. the "noob years"). Even the most simple fetch quest looked interesting, while today I notice it exactly for what it is: A simple fetch quest with not much work spend on it.

 

Let's take Fallout 1 as example.

 

After level 5 you are able to help Irwine in the Hub to get rid of the Raiders on his farm. Back in the days I never thought much about it. I liked this quest, because it was action and you got a cool reward for doing it. When looking at it today I see that it's simply a (not very complex and detailed) map with some mobs dropped in. Heck, they don't even react in any way on the player except for activating combat. There is no dialog, no movement, no nothing. It would take me literally 15 minutes to put such a quest into my Fo2 mod, no hyperbole.

 

On the other hand, if this quest would have been done today, they probably would have worked down a checklist for things you *have* to be able to do in this location, which, while making it much deeper than the original, also feels more mechanical, more checklist-esque, if that makes any sense. It would probably lack creativity in a unique way and instead offer exactly what you expect for such a quest to offer: Combat, stealth, diplomatic path. I'm not saying this is bad, it's just predictable.

True. I mean I loved Arcanum but the plot was basically:

 

 

...kill this bad guy! No, wait...kill the other one.

 

 

I guess the passing of time has made it more challenging to come up with something original.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Katphood

[Orogun01]

 

It's an RPG, just set it on easy and save yourself the trouble of poorly designed combat systems and leveling curve plus a random number generator.

 

Heh. I'm just replaying Tyranny because DLC is on sale yadda yadda, and much as I like the game, I'm really struggling to finish because the combat is just so bad. For some reason, designers figured that it made perfect sense for enemy casters to have higher defenses and physical resistances than melee fighters, as well as comparable HP, becuz muh challenge or something. Game's combat is plagued with that sort of stupid ****. And it's one of the newer iso CRPGs, you'd think they would have it down pat by now.

 

I'm much happier after switching to story mode. Shame this game doesn't just have a killsw01 equivalent that I can use to reduce the time wasted to a minimum. I more than fulfill my raging quota in PUBG, thank you very much. Don't need any extra aggravation.

 

I really never had an issue with the combat in Tyranny, I mainly play a caster though. Have you tried min maxing, and choosing some spells to buff your characters skills?

[213374U]

 

 

It's an RPG, just set it on easy and save yourself the trouble of poorly designed combat systems and leveling curve plus a random number generator.

 

Heh. I'm just replaying Tyranny because DLC is on sale yadda yadda, and much as I like the game, I'm really struggling to finish because the combat is just so bad. For some reason, designers figured that it made perfect sense for enemy casters to have higher defenses and physical resistances than melee fighters, as well as comparable HP, becuz muh challenge or something. Game's combat is plagued with that sort of stupid ****. And it's one of the newer iso CRPGs, you'd think they would have it down pat by now.

 

I'm much happier after switching to story mode. Shame this game doesn't just have a killsw01 equivalent that I can use to reduce the time wasted to a minimum. I more than fulfill my raging quota in PUBG, thank you very much. Don't need any extra aggravation.

 

I really never had an issue with the combat in Tyranny, I mainly play a caster though. Have you tried min maxing, and choosing some spells to buff your characters skills?

 

I just spam Lore training so I can open with 3-4 max damage storm-style spells and the combat is finished even before lord somethingorother has finished blabbing about this or that. Or buff myself to 300+ parry with mirror image and exploit riposte with a vampiric weapon, and sit there cackling and repeating "stop hitting yourself". It's nowhere near as fun as it sounds, really. You have specific caster-disabling abilities (such as Eb's drowning effect) that fail 90% of the time because casters are more physically durable than frontline fighters, so there's little point in using anything that isn't brute force. And then you have Lantry's anti-mage stance which, with a sufficiently low recovery, allows him to keep several casters locked down by himself. Bah. And that's on Hard. So I just set it to easy to avoid the cheese-fest. Click that, stuff dies, next talk.

 

My point was that the combat system is... bad, the tuning is worse, and there is just so much of it.

[Orogun01]

 

 

 

It's an RPG, just set it on easy and save yourself the trouble of poorly designed combat systems and leveling curve plus a random number generator.

 

Heh. I'm just replaying Tyranny because DLC is on sale yadda yadda, and much as I like the game, I'm really struggling to finish because the combat is just so bad. For some reason, designers figured that it made perfect sense for enemy casters to have higher defenses and physical resistances than melee fighters, as well as comparable HP, becuz muh challenge or something. Game's combat is plagued with that sort of stupid ****. And it's one of the newer iso CRPGs, you'd think they would have it down pat by now.

 

I'm much happier after switching to story mode. Shame this game doesn't just have a killsw01 equivalent that I can use to reduce the time wasted to a minimum. I more than fulfill my raging quota in PUBG, thank you very much. Don't need any extra aggravation.

 

I really never had an issue with the combat in Tyranny, I mainly play a caster though. Have you tried min maxing, and choosing some spells to buff your characters skills?

 

I just spam Lore training so I can open with 3-4 max damage storm-style spells and the combat is finished even before lord somethingorother has finished blabbing about this or that. Or buff myself to 300+ parry with mirror image and exploit riposte with a vampiric weapon, and sit there cackling and repeating "stop hitting yourself". It's nowhere near as fun as it sounds, really. You have specific caster-disabling abilities (such as Eb's drowning effect) that fail 90% of the time because casters are more physically durable than frontline fighters, so there's little point in using anything that isn't brute force. And then you have Lantry's anti-mage stance which, with a sufficiently low recovery, allows him to keep several casters locked down by himself. Bah. And that's on Hard. So I just set it to easy to avoid the cheese-fest. Click that, stuff dies, next talk.

 

My point was that the combat system is... bad, the tuning is worse, and there is just so much of it.

 

Or you just haven't figured it out yet. I swear to God I found this system very easy, I barely lost any encounters and I usually struggle with CRPGs. I usually build my teams having a dedicated healer and a control mage. The other two are a tank and a DPS.

Again I never had any difficulty with this game, IDK why is so hard for you; personally I just think that there's something you must be doing wrong, no offense.

[Bartimaeus]

Did you not read his post? He didn't really say that it was difficult. A combat system being bad doesn't necessarily mean hard.

 

I was bored to absolute tears playing out the majority of combat encounters using the same exact sequence of spells/abilities in the same exact way every time for the optimal results. Necessity is the mother of invention and variety is the spice of life and all that, and I think I played until around level 5 or 6 in PoE before I realized that there seemed to be very little of either on the player's side in the game and that I was really, really just tired of the combat system.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Bartimaeus

[213374U]

Or you just haven't figured it out yet. I swear to God I found this system very easy, I barely lost any encounters and I usually struggle with CRPGs. I usually build my teams having a dedicated healer and a control mage. The other two are a tank and a DPS.

Again I never had any difficulty with this game, IDK why is so hard for you; personally I just think that there's something you must be doing wrong, no offense.

 

None taken. But I still don't see what's there to figure out. Brute force > tactics. Among other things because enemies don't heal themselves (other than Ashe's Aegis, which is one of the few things you should deal with), interrupts don't work very well but that's not much of a problem because the AI doesn't use many control/status effects and/or they are weak, and mob stats are all over the place.

 

For instance. High threat Scarlet Fury snipers have large HP pools and high armor, while frontliners are trash. Looks good on paper, until you realize that engagement attacks are a joke and you can ignore them. Just chain stun and focus the Furies, and then it's game over for the AI. Casters? Who cares, worst thing they do is cast a smelly cloud or something that will prevent your melee from casting spells... which they shouldn't be doing anyway. But sure, let's give them massive defensive bonuses, because reasons.

 

Just... not very good design all around.

 

To me the gold standard is still Stratagems. After all these years I don't think I ever managed to beat Kangaxx without Disruption and ProMagic cheese. And the double dragon brawl at Chez Abazigal? Just keep that quickload handy. Funny thing... they are all legit characters, with only level-appropriate items and abilities. Why can't professional devs into combat design?

Edited March 1, 2018 by 213374U

[ShadySands]

Did anybody ever visit the London Trocadero back in the 90's(I don't know how the place looks like nowadays)?

 

It had a floor full of arcade machines. The few times I visited that place it felt like outer space! It even had VR:

 

When I was a wee lad I got my dad to take me to San Diego for this