So give it to me straight about 'classic' single-class Wizards

[Yenkaz]

... because given the rankings they've received in the beta discussion, they seem to have a really bad rep.

 

I really want to bring in my over-the-top AoE debuff/nuke wizard who relies on his teammates to keep him alive (or have Durance or Pallegina perform their "Berath's Swingdoor" technique) while he dishes out unpleasantness into Deadfire. He did do the most damage of any character in POE, but mostly because that was his intended role (and I personally controlled him 90% of the time).

 

However, going by beta comments, spell casting is slow, effects have a tiny duration and do almost no damage, and the winning strategy is to give your wizard half a warrior part-time job and have them poke the enemy with (magical) shiny things instead of casting silly spells.

 

Are people just too dismissive of using wizards as classic offensive AoE masters or are stabbing, slashing and bashing people a lot the new fireball spell?

 

I don't really think I could stop myself from importing the dead-faced bastard as-is and just deal with him vacuum-inhaling Thaos' immortal gonads, but I'd like to know what to expect.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Yenkaz

[Gromnir]

 

However, going by beta comments, spell casting is slow, effects have a tiny duration and do almost no damage, and the winning strategy is to give your wizard half a warrior part-time job and have them poke the enemy with (magical) shiny things instead of casting silly spells.

 

 

 

multi-class combos which focus on a few exploits is still the clear win at the moment.  obsidian has addressed a few o' the weapon speed issues, but am suspecting obsidian is gonna need work to reduce specific exploits if the multiclass problems is gonna be fixed.  however, is not as if single-class casters are ineffective.  build a vanilla deadfire deadfire beta party and your offensive caster, relying on chill fog, thrust of tattered veils, necrotic lance and fireballs is gonna be doing impressive damage w/o even need consider the value o' wizardly debuffs. is not as if casters is ineffective.

 

however, am gonna concede the new multiclass approach has resulted in pure/vanilla casters being limited from a customization standpoint compared to poe counterparts. am feeling such is a largely necessary concession given all the potential balance problems multiclassing represents.  unfortunately, building pure casters has become less fulfilling for many/most players.  level-up and maybe choose a weapon proficiency and a spell.  that's it?

 

the frustration is understandable. pure casters ain't as terribad or weak as much o' the beta noise suggests.  even so, there is understandable cause for frustration. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

A pure wizard is great if you focus on spells that scale well with Power Level. For example all Missile spells. But as Gromnir said: customisation is not the strong part. This may change though because we will be getting more passives in the future.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Boeroer

[LampStaple]

In the "gimme your best and worst" thread posted by obsidian pretty much every reply had a complaint about spellcasting - I don't think anybody actually likes spellcasting as it is.

 

I'd expect huge changes. I'm just like you, I enjoyed playing my bomb-ass archmage-feeling wizard in PoE 1 and I'd really love to play a spellcaster with the beautiful spell vfx in deadfire without feeling like I'm gimping myself.

[Senenleigh]

I think Wizard is better off as Debuff/Control oriented rather than damage. No more damage bonus possible for might, much slower casting speed. If you max out dex, Perception, and Int we now have a controller not really a damage dealer under most circumstances.

[Madscientist]

Its quite simple to make a good wizard nuker:

- use a nature godlike ( extra power levels when you have any inspiration )

- max out might or resolve ( the one that increases spell damage in the version you play ), high dex and some per is good to hit faster and harder. Int and str/res ( the one that does not increase spell damage ) do not need to be high for a pure nuker.

- Take evoker subclass for extra power level and a small chance to double the effect of evocation spells.

- get an inspiration ( if possible from another char like a priest, else take a fast illusion or enchantment spell.

 

- nuke the hell out of enemies and do not forget that you can empower spells.

 

bonus question 1:

How useful is assassin/evoker compared to this?

You can start from stealth and you can become invisible a few times per combat, but you have less spells and power level. How big is the assassin bonus exactly?

Most of the time you will have only stealth bonus because you need to be within 2m for backstab and you must remain hidden during your casting time.

 

bonus question 2:

Is the backstab, sneak attack, death attack ( I assume it will be in the game ) and assassin bonus given to all damage, including spells?

If you do not take evoker but the standart mage/assassin ( evoker is the only useful subclass for mages ), would it be effective when using summoned weapons and touch spells?

Edited March 28, 2018 by Madscientist

[Boeroer]

Any wizard with rod+Blast or Kaloth's Minor Blights in combo with rogue is great: summon the Blights and apply Confounding Blind in an AoE and then use missile or other multiple-hit spells to debuff deflection like crazy or cause Arterial Strike in an AoE and then force enemies to move (Repulsive Visage, Pull of Eora etc.).

 

An Assassin/wizard can do ridiculous crit damage out of stealth and also out of invisibility (needs fix). Also the PEN bonus of Assassination is very helpful. There are not many other PEN buffs for spells. Backstab, Sneak Attack and so on are not good for spells, but you can cause afflictions in an AoE (be it via spell or Blast/Blights) and then do Sneak-Attack-AoE damage via Blast/Blights. Blights is the better option since it can be used with dual wielding speed and the damage is higher. Spirit Lance is the same as Blights - just melee and you can't use neither dual wielding speed nor single weapon ACC bonus. But Crippling Strike and so on also work in an AoE with the Lance.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Boeroer

[Madscientist]

My first char will be a paladin/chanter.

 

But later I want to play an evil char who is not just a brutal idiot. So assassin/caster seems like a good option and wizard looks like one of the better options for casters.

I hope that the additional damage taken by assassins will not be too much of a problem if I start with a spell from stealth, attack with ranged weapons and use invisibility abilities.

[The Sharmat]

I found nukers to be fairly ineffective in PoE 1 as well to be honest, but maybe that's because at higher difficulty levels status effects and debuffs mattered way more than direct damage. Has this changed in PoE 2?

[JerekKruger]

I found nukers to be fairly ineffective in PoE 1 as well to be honest, but maybe that's because at higher difficulty levels status effects and debuffs mattered way more than direct damage. Has this changed in PoE 2?

 

Well they are, if anything, worse in the current beta.

 

That said my own experiences of PoE don't match with yours: all three Vancian casters could do huge damage if you were willing to dump their spells. In particular Wizard + Deleterious Alacrity of Motion = empty grimoire in no time at all.

[The Sharmat]

I guess I don't consider spamming nuking. That's more like a machine gun than a nuke to me. Still powerful I suppose, just not what I thought they were aiming for; particularly in Deadfire where casting is much slower?

[JerekKruger]

I guess I don't consider spamming nuking. That's more like a machine gun than a nuke to me. Still powerful I suppose, just not what I thought they were aiming for; particularly in Deadfire where casting is much slower?

 

Ah, I think I see what you mean. By nuking you mean casting a single big (probably AoE) damage dealing spell? I assumed you just meant damage dealing.

 

As damage dealers the three Vancians are arguably the most powerful classes in the game when you don't hold back, but I get where you're coming from insofar as the big spells not feeling that meaty in Pillars.

 

I think it's clear Obsidian are aiming for slower, more meaty spells in Deadfire, but in the current beta I'd say they just aren't meaty enough to make up for their speed.

[The Sharmat]

Yeah I meant a single room clearing spell. Spamming Ninagauth's various direct damage spells will do that but it will take chain casting.

[SaruNi]

One issue I don't think has been mentioned---base spell accuracy is really bad in PoE 2. Even with maxed perception. They've added weapon modals that decrease either reflex or will or fortitude by -25 on hit so spells will land. But assassinate gives spells +25 accuracy, so assassin/wizard lets you actually hit with an AoE nuke at the start of combat (which in terms of casting time is basically a "free" cast). 

 

There's a Bounding Missile spell that benefits massively from increased power level---possibly bugged, because unlike every other "jump" spell, it does more damage with each jump instead of less. Missile and jump spells get extra missiles and jumps from power level and so do much more damage, while many other spells barely benefit at all.

 

Evoker Death Godlike gets +5 power levels when near death and could be very good. The Shieldbearer paladin subclass has a Lay on Hands that prevents the recipient from getting knocked out. 

 

Long casting time lends itself to setting up large nukes while debuffing enemies and buffing the caster....

 

On Ninagauth spells---Ninagauth's Shadowflame is one of the best nukes in the beta. Ninagauth's Bitter Mooring is also good... we don't have access to higher level spells except through some scrolls, haven't tested them yet but they seem to be strong nukes (Meteor Storm etc.).

Edited March 29, 2018 by SaruNi

[JerekKruger]

@SaruNi - you just made me realise that spells like Shadowflame are in the game. Just consoled all the uniques from PoE that are level 5 or below to try them out. Shadowflame is nice, but its base cast time is currently 8s: that's a veritable age of man.

Interestingly Concelhaut's Draining Missiles has a 3s cast time vs. Minoletta's instant cast time, making it kinda bad.

[Madscientist]

Just to avoid confusion:

By nuker a mean a mage who uses spells that cause damage, like missles or fireballs.

Other possibilities would be debuffer ( int is more importent there for duration ) or self buffer ( mirror image + summoned weapons ).

 

in the deadfire beta I never used spells with more than 3 sec base casting time. I did not use any mod, like the casting speed mod.

[The Sharmat]

One issue I don't think has been mentioned---base spell accuracy is really bad in PoE 2. Even with maxed perception. They've added weapon modals that decrease either reflex or will or fortitude by -25 on hit so spells will land. But assassinate gives spells +25 accuracy, so assassin/wizard lets you actually hit with an AoE nuke at the start of combat (which in terms of casting time is basically a "free" cast). 

 

There's a Bounding Missile spell that benefits massively from increased power level---possibly bugged, because unlike every other "jump" spell, it does more damage with each jump instead of less. Missile and jump spells get extra missiles and jumps from power level and so do much more damage, while many other spells barely benefit at all.

 

Evoker Death Godlike gets +5 power levels when near death and could be very good. The Shieldbearer paladin subclass has a Lay on Hands that prevents the recipient from getting knocked out. 

 

Long casting time lends itself to setting up large nukes while debuffing enemies and buffing the caster....

 

On Ninagauth spells---Ninagauth's Shadowflame is one of the best nukes in the beta. Ninagauth's Bitter Mooring is also good... we don't have access to higher level spells except through some scrolls, haven't tested them yet but they seem to be strong nukes (Meteor Storm etc.).

I didn't expect the special spells like Ninagauth's Shadowflame would stay in the game. Nice.

[JerekKruger]

I didn't expect the special spells like Ninagauth's Shadowflame would stay in the game. Nice.

 

Given you can't select them at level up it's quite likely they'll be grimoire only spells i.e. you'll have to have Ninagauth's grimoire equipped to use his unique spells.

[Elric Galad]

I wonder if this is about wizards or just about single class characters.
At first glance, single-class characters seem a bit UP.

Multiclass characters get 7/9 Power Level, more passives (including the default one for each class such as carnage or sneak attacks) and x1,33 source point progression (If I got the wiki right). Not to mention they seem to be funnier.
At level 1, it seems that Multiclass characters are even strictly better than single class because they get 2 abilities, 2x3 power sources trading with... basically nothing.

Single classes seem to need a bit more love, such as some stuff at level 1.
Maybe better starting power source or better power source progression could fix it in a simple way.

(or at least nerf the multi to 2x2 starting power sources)

Don't get me wrong, the very principle of Multiclasses trading a bit of raw power for versatility seems awesome, but I fear Single classes are currently a bit lacking.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Elric Galad

[SaruNi]

The only multiclass right now that gets a major direct bonus to spell damage (as opposed to penetration and accuracy, or might) is Barbarian Wizard---just tested, Blooded (+25%) and Wilder Hunter (+25%) work with spells. (Assassinate does too but only grants +50% crit damage as opposed to damage in general. And Helwalker can get a large bonus to Might....) Bloodlust is also the only speed boost that stacks with everything else (and can be triggered by killing your own summons). Maybe throw in Barbaric Yell, Wild Sprint, or Thick Skinned (as well as upgraded Frenzy at higher levels) and Berserker Wizard could be fun... if the lack of accuracy isn't too much of an issue (could open combat with weapon modal attacks using Barbarian's bonus accuracy with proficient weapons, get blooded, then cast? or cast location-based spell with duration *before* combat (for example chill fog), attack with weapon modal and get blooded, then lure enemies into spell---blooded bonus should get applied if you're bloodied when the spell hits them). 

[Boeroer]

According to the "simplified" stacking rules of Deadfire, every speed boost that stems from passives should stack. Bloodlust seems to be the only one atm, but hopefully we see some more in the final game (also from items like Gauntlets of Swift Action had). Maybe something like Anitlei?

 

Sadly Blood Thirst got replaced by an upgrade of Barbaric Blow. It was a nice mechanic that also could be triggered by killing your own summons and with every kill (no matter the ability/spell/attack you used - except DoTs).

[Phyriel]

I found nukers to be fairly ineffective in PoE 1 as well to be honest, but maybe that's because at higher difficulty levels status effects and debuffs mattered way more than direct damage. Has this changed in PoE 2?

 

I think you haven't tried using Kalakoth's Freezing Rake on a group of Torn Bannerman that you just landed a Gaze of Adragan on, fast huge aoe that hits for 250-300+ in one hit on probably one of the strongest human opponents in the game. Still petrify from opened up this combo which makes you right in a way that debuff is strong here but then if you had no way to deal massive damage quick in big aoe to cash out on short petrify (even if it lands its often like 2-3 sec on some targets)

Edited April 1, 2018 by Phyriel

[Boeroer]

Also remember Shining Beacon with high INT, MIG and ACC. Priest: one of the best nukers in PoE.

[JerekKruger]

Also remember Shining Beacon with high INT, MIG and ACC. Priest: one of the best nukers in PoE.

 

Perhaps the best, though they rarely get a chance to shine as they're too busy doing their other job: being definitely the best buffer in PoE.

[The Sharmat]

 

I found nukers to be fairly ineffective in PoE 1 as well to be honest, but maybe that's because at higher difficulty levels status effects and debuffs mattered way more than direct damage. Has this changed in PoE 2?

 

I think you haven't tried using Kalakoth's Freezing Rake on a group of Torn Bannerman that you just landed a Gaze of Adragan on, fast huge aoe that hits for 250-300+ in one hit on probably one of the strongest human opponents in the game. Still petrify from opened up this combo which makes you right in a way that debuff is strong here but then if you had no way to deal massive damage quick in big aoe to cash out on short petrify (even if it lands its often like 2-3 sec on some targets)

 

That's a couple of very high level spells and at that point you're probably going to need a fair bit of buffing and debuffing to get a lot of them petrified. Which is fine, the game has great tactical depth and powerful combos should require set up. But starting the game at PotD and even hard and I gotta say, fireball is pretty underwhelming.

Edited April 3, 2018 by The Sharmat