Paladin Order Talents

[Murp]

So I've been playing a paladin in the beta and I'm having a great time though there are some aspects I'm missing. I'm hoping there might be a return of paladin order exclusive talents similar to the ones that were in the previous installment, especially for the Shieldbearers.

 

Right now I'm playing a Shieldbearer and they seem kind of bland compared to the other orders, while seeming much more worthwhile when they had access to Shielding Flames and Shielding Touch.

 

Maybe we could acquire these talents in the 10-15 level range as to make the starting bonuses shine more in the beginning? 

[KDubya]

Another reason is that previously Paladins all had a penalty to go with their extra powers. Bleak Walkers, Goldpact and Kind Wayfarers all had big penalties to go with their strong power while Shield Bearers had a smaller penalty to go with their weaker power. Now without penalties the other Orders just offer more.

[Ninjamestari]

Bear in mind that you're still playing beta, there may be limited content in order to have a more focused testing experience.

[Lephys]

Another reason is that previously Paladins all had a penalty to go with their extra powers. Bleak Walkers, Goldpact and Kind Wayfarers all had big penalties to go with their strong power while Shield Bearers had a smaller penalty to go with their weaker power. Now without penalties the other Orders just offer more.

 

Keep in mind that the lack of a different bonus is functionally a "penalty." That being said, it doesn't mean there's definitely no reason for Order penalties, but sometimes, the whole "you get a bonus, but also a malus" thing is less valuable, because the malus is redundant when just a "because you picked A, you don't get B, C, or D" penalty would've sufficed. Also, a malus is only useful in this type of balancing when it makes things more interesting. I'm always a bigger fan of "you can do this cool extra thing, but you have this kind of crazy, interesting malus" over "You get +5 to this, but -5 to this other thing."

[KDubya]

 

Another reason is that previously Paladins all had a penalty to go with their extra powers. Bleak Walkers, Goldpact and Kind Wayfarers all had big penalties to go with their strong power while Shield Bearers had a smaller penalty to go with their weaker power. Now without penalties the other Orders just offer more.

 

Keep in mind that the lack of a different bonus is functionally a "penalty." That being said, it doesn't mean there's definitely no reason for Order penalties, but sometimes, the whole "you get a bonus, but also a malus" thing is less valuable, because the malus is redundant when just a "because you picked A, you don't get B, C, or D" penalty would've sufficed. Also, a malus is only useful in this type of balancing when it makes things more interesting. I'm always a bigger fan of "you can do this cool extra thing, but you have this kind of crazy, interesting malus" over "You get +5 to this, but -5 to this other thing."

 

 

I found the penalties to be fitting to the Orders, or at least the ones i can remember.

 

Bleak Walkers being better at dishing out damage via better FoD but being bad at healing makes sense.

 

Kind Wayfarers doing less damage when doing a sneak attack makes sense as they are honorable 'good guys'.

 

Gold Pact not having auras ..... not sure of the why but their +4 armor ability is super powerful so they needed something punishing.

 

Shield Bearers not being able to use Lay on Hands on themselves sounds fitting as they are all about helping others.

 

Darcozzi having less zeal ...... I guess they just ran out of ideas.

 

I just figure that sooner or later paladins will be hit with the nerf bat and lose at least their starting ability pick since they get one free with each order.

[Gromnir]

the thing we don't understand 'bout the removal o' paladin order malus is the underlying problem which obsidian sought to fix by removing the malus.  paladins, before the most recent beta build, were one o' the more versatile and vital classes in the game.  is not as if the malus erasure were needed to address a surfeit o' power or flexibility.  if the issue were the role-play appropriateness o' a given malus, then solution would be to change the particular malus to something more appropriate, yes? 

 

given the state o' the paladin at beta release, the blunt malus fix makes little sense to us. what were the problem the fix addressed?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Erik-Dirk]

Obsidian probably had this idea that a new player shouldn't be forced to choose a penalty at character creation, however I think this could easily be solved by removing the malus for either the Kind Wayfarers or Shield Bearers only.

Their ethos both essentially match your stereotypical paladin and their powers/malus are pretty underwhelming so they're already pretty perfect to present as the "Base Class" Paladin.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Erik-Dirk

[PneumaticFire]

I think this makes Bleakwalkers a little too powerful, as ability is significantly strong with no penalty now.

[dunehunter]

Obsidian probably had this idea that a new player shouldn't be forced to choose a penalty at character creation, however I think this could easily be solved by removing the malus for either the Kind Wayfarers or Shield Bearers only.

Their ethos both essentially match your stereotypical paladin and their powers/malus are pretty underwhelming so they're already pretty perfect to present as the "Base Class" Paladin.

 

Kind Wayfarers are never a weak subclass. For power aspect in current beta, I will rank Goldpact > Bleak walker = Kind wayfarers > Darcozzi > Shieldbearer.

[Erik-Dirk]

 

Obsidian probably had this idea that a new player shouldn't be forced to choose a penalty at character creation, however I think this could easily be solved by removing the malus for either the Kind Wayfarers or Shield Bearers only.

Their ethos both essentially match your stereotypical paladin and their powers/malus are pretty underwhelming so they're already pretty perfect to present as the "Base Class" Paladin.

 

Kind Wayfarers are never a weak subclass. For power aspect in current beta, I will rank Goldpact > Bleak walker = Kind wayfarers > Darcozzi > Shieldbearer.

 

Shield Bearers would probably be the best to present as a base class then and restore the malus to every other class.

Also I feel Shield Bearer should be able to heal themselves. (They'd want to continue holding the threat at bay themselves rather than retreat and heal the injured)

[dunehunter]

 

 

Obsidian probably had this idea that a new player shouldn't be forced to choose a penalty at character creation, however I think this could easily be solved by removing the malus for either the Kind Wayfarers or Shield Bearers only.

Their ethos both essentially match your stereotypical paladin and their powers/malus are pretty underwhelming so they're already pretty perfect to present as the "Base Class" Paladin.

 

Kind Wayfarers are never a weak subclass. For power aspect in current beta, I will rank Goldpact > Bleak walker = Kind wayfarers > Darcozzi > Shieldbearer.

 

Shield Bearers would probably be the best to present as a base class then and restore the malus to every other class.

Also I feel Shield Bearer should be able to heal themselves. (They'd want to continue holding the threat at bay themselves rather than retreat and heal the injured)

 

 

Some original penalty is really horrible tho, the -30% heal/heal received means NO to Second wind, No to LoH on self. And -15% damage to target vulnerable to sneak attack sounds weird too. I'm ok with penalty, but some of them is just disencourage me to play them.

[Lephys]

 

 

Another reason is that previously Paladins all had a penalty to go with their extra powers. Bleak Walkers, Goldpact and Kind Wayfarers all had big penalties to go with their strong power while Shield Bearers had a smaller penalty to go with their weaker power. Now without penalties the other Orders just offer more.

 

Keep in mind that the lack of a different bonus is functionally a "penalty." That being said, it doesn't mean there's definitely no reason for Order penalties, but sometimes, the whole "you get a bonus, but also a malus" thing is less valuable, because the malus is redundant when just a "because you picked A, you don't get B, C, or D" penalty would've sufficed. Also, a malus is only useful in this type of balancing when it makes things more interesting. I'm always a bigger fan of "you can do this cool extra thing, but you have this kind of crazy, interesting malus" over "You get +5 to this, but -5 to this other thing."

 

 

I found the penalties to be fitting to the Orders, or at least the ones i can remember.

 

Bleak Walkers being better at dishing out damage via better FoD but being bad at healing makes sense.

 

Kind Wayfarers doing less damage when doing a sneak attack makes sense as they are honorable 'good guys'.

 

Gold Pact not having auras ..... not sure of the why but their +4 armor ability is super powerful so they needed something punishing.

 

Shield Bearers not being able to use Lay on Hands on themselves sounds fitting as they are all about helping others.

 

Darcozzi having less zeal ...... I guess they just ran out of ideas.

 

Only problem I have with these is that the penalty doesn't really match the bonus. For example, Bleak Walkers are better at offense but worse at healing? So, if you don't care about healing anyone (which you don't HAVE to do... you have 4 other party members to do healz), you just get a free offense bonus.

 

Instead, just for example, if you were to, say, grant a critical damage bonus, but reduce attack speed, both of those things affect attacking. You can't be like "I want to do more DPS, but I don't care how quickly I attack, u_u...". Or, maybe your heals are larger areas, but are slightly less potent. Those are direct tradeoffs. "You get a cool bonus, but also you aren't allowed to wear spiffy boots" is not really a great tradeoff, no matter how thematically it fits, as statistically only like half the people are going to care about a cool bonus, whilst EVERYONE'S going to care about wearing cool boots! (I jest... obviously it's the opposite, ).

[KDubya]

 

 

 

Another reason is that previously Paladins all had a penalty to go with their extra powers. Bleak Walkers, Goldpact and Kind Wayfarers all had big penalties to go with their strong power while Shield Bearers had a smaller penalty to go with their weaker power. Now without penalties the other Orders just offer more.

 

Keep in mind that the lack of a different bonus is functionally a "penalty." That being said, it doesn't mean there's definitely no reason for Order penalties, but sometimes, the whole "you get a bonus, but also a malus" thing is less valuable, because the malus is redundant when just a "because you picked A, you don't get B, C, or D" penalty would've sufficed. Also, a malus is only useful in this type of balancing when it makes things more interesting. I'm always a bigger fan of "you can do this cool extra thing, but you have this kind of crazy, interesting malus" over "You get +5 to this, but -5 to this other thing."

 

 

I found the penalties to be fitting to the Orders, or at least the ones i can remember.

 

Bleak Walkers being better at dishing out damage via better FoD but being bad at healing makes sense.

 

Kind Wayfarers doing less damage when doing a sneak attack makes sense as they are honorable 'good guys'.

 

Gold Pact not having auras ..... not sure of the why but their +4 armor ability is super powerful so they needed something punishing.

 

Shield Bearers not being able to use Lay on Hands on themselves sounds fitting as they are all about helping others.

 

Darcozzi having less zeal ...... I guess they just ran out of ideas.

 

Only problem I have with these is that the penalty doesn't really match the bonus. For example, Bleak Walkers are better at offense but worse at healing? So, if you don't care about healing anyone (which you don't HAVE to do... you have 4 other party members to do healz), you just get a free offense bonus.

 

Instead, just for example, if you were to, say, grant a critical damage bonus, but reduce attack speed, both of those things affect attacking. You can't be like "I want to do more DPS, but I don't care how quickly I attack, u_u...". Or, maybe your heals are larger areas, but are slightly less potent. Those are direct tradeoffs. "You get a cool bonus, but also you aren't allowed to wear spiffy boots" is not really a great tradeoff, no matter how thematically it fits, as statistically only like half the people are going to care about a cool bonus, whilst EVERYONE'S going to care about wearing cool boots! (I jest... obviously it's the opposite, ).

 

 

Why should the penalty match the bonus?

 

If a Bleak Walker got their better FoD but attacked slower they'd be a gimp. If instead a Bleak Walker heals -30% and is healed -30% that makes a choice. Paladins have or at least in PoE had, the best single target heal, loosing out on that is a big malus, not to mention that you yourself get healed at a -30% rate. With the big power comes a big price. Thematically Bleak Walkers are all about solving problems with overwhelming violence, it makes sense that they are bad healers.

 

I think the penalties were fine and added to the choice of Order. Hopefully Obsidian will put them back into the game. If new players can't be bothered to read the Order descriptions and understand that they get a malus then perhaps this is not the game for them.

[mostundesired]

 

 

 Only problem I have with these is that the penalty doesn't really match the bonus. For example, Bleak Walkers are better at offense but worse at healing? So, if you don't care about healing anyone (which you don't HAVE to do... you have 4 other party members to do healz), you just get a free offense bonus.

 

Instead, just for example, if you were to, say, grant a critical damage bonus, but reduce attack speed, both of those things affect attacking. You can't be like "I want to do more DPS, but I don't care how quickly I attack, u_u...". Or, maybe your heals are larger areas, but are slightly less potent. Those are direct tradeoffs. "You get a cool bonus, but also you aren't allowed to wear spiffy boots" is not really a great tradeoff, no matter how thematically it fits, as statistically only like half the people are going to care about a cool bonus, whilst EVERYONE'S going to care about wearing cool boots! (I jest... obviously it's the opposite, ).

 

 

Well, the big flaw with that is that it eliminates specialization. Bleakwalker specializes towards damage, and in doing so gives up... damage. Kind Wayfarer specializes towards healing at the cost of... healing. There's a problem with Paladins (in the point of view of devs) that the maluses were out of place because there is no base Paladin class. In other words, your only option is to specialize, and there's no option to be a generalist. How true that is is debatable, according to other forumites. But suggesting that every bonus come with a malus that affects the same exact thing is making it so that none of the options are specializing; they're all equally as viable at doing all the same jobs. They're all base class paladins, but with a different shade of devotion. In which case, what's the point of having subclasses?

 

Thinking about it, getting rid of maluses might have been a good move for Paladins, but the way it was done didn't change the playstyle of the subclass. Instead of boosting the base Paladin abilities, they could've given them an extra one that comes with a malus. Something like Gold Pact get their bonus to armor when using their special Sworn Enemy, but can't have auras active when doing so. Shieldbearers get extra engagements and deflection bonus on Lay on Hands when using large shields, but can't cast lay on hands on themselves while equipped. Bleakwalkers get their special Flames of Devotion along with the option of the regular version, but if used, their healing given and received drops while the afflictions last. Situational maluses that are active only when bonuses are active. You can choose to be a specialist within your Paladin order, but otherwise you can choose to be a generalist Paladin.

[dunehunter]

 

 

 

 Only problem I have with these is that the penalty doesn't really match the bonus. For example, Bleak Walkers are better at offense but worse at healing? So, if you don't care about healing anyone (which you don't HAVE to do... you have 4 other party members to do healz), you just get a free offense bonus.

 

Instead, just for example, if you were to, say, grant a critical damage bonus, but reduce attack speed, both of those things affect attacking. You can't be like "I want to do more DPS, but I don't care how quickly I attack, u_u...". Or, maybe your heals are larger areas, but are slightly less potent. Those are direct tradeoffs. "You get a cool bonus, but also you aren't allowed to wear spiffy boots" is not really a great tradeoff, no matter how thematically it fits, as statistically only like half the people are going to care about a cool bonus, whilst EVERYONE'S going to care about wearing cool boots! (I jest... obviously it's the opposite, ).

 

 

Well, the big flaw with that is that it eliminates specialization. Bleakwalker specializes towards damage, and in doing so gives up... damage. Kind Wayfarer specializes towards healing at the cost of... healing. There's a problem with Paladins (in the point of view of devs) that the maluses were out of place because there is no base Paladin class. In other words, your only option is to specialize, and there's no option to be a generalist. How true that is is debatable, according to other forumites. But suggesting that every bonus come with a malus that affects the same exact thing is making it so that none of the options are specializing; they're all equally as viable at doing all the same jobs. They're all base class paladins, but with a different shade of devotion. In which case, what's the point of having subclasses?

 

Thinking about it, getting rid of maluses might have been a good move for Paladins, but the way it was done didn't change the playstyle of the subclass. Instead of boosting the base Paladin abilities, they could've given them an extra one that comes with a malus. Something like Gold Pact get their bonus to armor when using their special Sworn Enemy, but can't have auras active when doing so. Shieldbearers get extra engagements and deflection bonus on Lay on Hands when using large shields, but can't cast lay on hands on themselves while equipped. Bleakwalkers get their special Flames of Devotion along with the option of the regular version, but if used, their healing given and received drops while the afflictions last. Situational maluses that are active only when bonuses are active. You can choose to be a specialist within your Paladin order, but otherwise you can choose to be a generalist Paladin.

 

 

The situational malus sounds a fair trade to me.

 

What about Darcozzi tho I really like the PoE 1 Darcozzi Observer build, but in Deadfire they only have gimped flame shield and a weird malus.

Edited January 5, 2018 by dunehunter

[deneweth]

I like the penalties in the vein of kits in baldur's gate, but I don't like the idea of specializations being tied to an order and it's ethos. You shouldn't feel like you're being punished by making a damage dealer paladin that isn't a bleakwalker, but if your other options are to gain a bonus you don't need AND get a penalty.  That feels too extreme.  The other option is to make a bleakwalker and get the bonus you want but also a penalty and a further penalty if you don't role play your order via Faith and Conviction.  Faith and Conviction also prevents there from being a no subclass option as it is implemented now.

 

I think that from the get go subclasses have been advertised as opening up new possibilities.  I remember them saying how many combinations of subclasses there are with dualclassing.  With the penalties it felt very limiting, both in build and in roleplay.  I would be okay if all the orders did was determine your starting ability and ethos for F&C.  I can see why others might want something more substantial though.  Keep in mind there are something like 11 classes and 39 subclasses and there is no way they can justify a lot of exclusive abilities for all of them even if they could come up with that many unique abilities.

 

I think a reasonable compromise would be something like each order having a few bonus abilities from other classes available as a sort of light dualclass kind of like the dualclass talents in PoE1.  Bleakwalkers could get sneak attack, withering strike, and shadow step.  That would be very themeatic, but by no means mandatory and you could always ignore your order specific abilities to get shared paladin ones.  Shield bearers could get fighter stuff, I'm not sure about goldpact, darcozzi or kind wayfarers.  Darcozzi would probably just get flameshield and fire stuff.  Kind wayfarers would just get a mix of priest/druid heal spells and goldpact would be the hybrid 'specialization' getting a mix of offensive and defensive 'veteran mercenary' themed abilities from barbarian/rogue/fighter.

[mostundesired]

 

 

 The situational malus sounds a fair trade to me.

 

What about Darcozzi tho I really like the PoE 1 Darcozzi Observer build, but in Deadfire they only have gimped flame shield and a weird malus.

 

 

 

Good question. I was just spitballing. Less Zeal is hard to build off of, so it'd probably have to be something brand new. Can't think of anything off the top of my head, but my instincts tell me lowering Deflection while active? More damage, sure, but more chances for the shield to go off.

 

 

I like the penalties in the vein of kits in baldur's gate, but I don't like the idea of specializations being tied to an order and it's ethos. You shouldn't feel like you're being punished by making a damage dealer paladin that isn't a bleakwalker, but if your other options are to gain a bonus you don't need AND get a penalty.  That feels too extreme.  The other option is to make a bleakwalker and get the bonus you want but also a penalty and a further penalty if you don't role play your order via Faith and Conviction.  Faith and Conviction also prevents there from being a no subclass option as it is implemented now.

 

I think that from the get go subclasses have been advertised as opening up new possibilities.  I remember them saying how many combinations of subclasses there are with dualclassing.  With the penalties it felt very limiting, both in build and in roleplay.  I would be okay if all the orders did was determine your starting ability and ethos for F&C.  I can see why others might want something more substantial though.  Keep in mind there are something like 11 classes and 39 subclasses and there is no way they can justify a lot of exclusive abilities for all of them even if they could come up with that many unique abilities.

 

I think a reasonable compromise would be something like each order having a few bonus abilities from other classes available as a sort of light dualclass kind of like the dualclass talents in PoE1.  Bleakwalkers could get sneak attack, withering strike, and shadow step.  That would be very themeatic, but by no means mandatory and you could always ignore your order specific abilities to get shared paladin ones.  Shield bearers could get fighter stuff, I'm not sure about goldpact, darcozzi or kind wayfarers.  Darcozzi would probably just get flameshield and fire stuff.  Kind wayfarers would just get a mix of priest/druid heal spells and goldpact would be the hybrid 'specialization' getting a mix of offensive and defensive 'veteran mercenary' themed abilities from barbarian/rogue/fighter.

 

For argument's sake, I'd say that a Paladin order would be probably one of the few cases were combat abilities should be tied to character's personality, since it has to do with loyalty to a way of life or code of conduct or whatever. (Personally, I don't care that much)

 

I like giving Paladins other class's abilities on paper, but if I had to object to it (which I don't), it would be that firstly, Priests already get that, and secondly, Paladins are already good at doing just about anything you need in a party (tank, heal, dps, buff/support, even some CC). Giving them MORE OF THING just seems unnecessary, and judging by the response of others, would fall into the same problem that the current build has: More Better At Thing^TM isn't an interesting choice, and potentially game breaking. Truthfully, I'm more bothered by the overlap with Priest.

[Akos]

Wayfarers penalty was my favorite in terms of being nonsensical. I like that the Paladin recognizes he has an unfair advantage, and he's not necessarily going to STOP attacking you from behind or ask his rogue ally to back off so he can have an honorable duel with his adversary, but he is going to SLIGHTLY pull his punches out of.... guilt or something? The motives felt very unclear. 

[PneumaticFire]

Initially I didn't like the major change in emphasis of Paladin from its D&D archetype to more of a warlord kind of class in Pillars. Paladins by nature (as described above), are generalists anyway, with no area they excel in a lot, other than perhaps being a resilient tank.

With the addition of multiclassing, people can make a class that is much more focused and has distinct advantages of two classes rather than a general vanilla build.

However with the paladins strong aura abilities this gave them something quite distinct as well. Paladins should be generalists, sure, but I like that they have some distinct class mechanics as well.

Edited January 7, 2018 by PneumaticFire

[KDubya]

Wayfarers penalty was my favorite in terms of being nonsensical. I like that the Paladin recognizes he has an unfair advantage, and he's not necessarily going to STOP attacking you from behind or ask his rogue ally to back off so he can have an honorable duel with his adversary, but he is going to SLIGHTLY pull his punches out of.... guilt or something? The motives felt very unclear. 

 

So if the Wayfarer penalty was a total reduction of sneak attack to no benefit, that'd be better for you? As in reduce damage by 50% instead of the 30% that it had?

 

I could get behind that. Its thematically fitting and gets past the logic problem of just slightly pulling your punches.

 

The big penalties plus the extra power at creation made Paladins a bold color not a pale pastel. Loud and Proud, its the paladin's way

[Murp]

Honestly I think every paladin order having a minus is a good thing. Paladins are extremely useful in every situation and having a generalist just seems like there's too much going for it.

 

Lore-wise paladins are supposed to be kinda fanatical right? so it makes sense that the things the order frowns upon would be weaker since the paladins get their power from how dedicated they are to the order, Maybe the minuses could be rebalanced to reflect that more?

 

This is kind of a stretch but maybe paladins could get the minuses but they only activate if you have dispositions that are against the order, so Bleak Walkers that are diplomatic and/or benevolent get penalized but ones that are true to their dogma don't. I think that would be really cool.

[Leeuwenhart]

They shouldve made 1 order without a malus and only a tiny flavoured feat.

 

Like the Darcozzi. The original pallies. Makes sense.

 

All rest are offshoots and hybrids.

 

Make Darcozzi vanilla paladins.

[theBalthazar]

Don't forget that in POE1, Paladin was one of the worse class of the game.

 

Now he is at his right place.

 

Create versatile possibilities with a melee is an obligation.

[PneumaticFire]

Don't forget that in POE1, Paladin was one of the worse class of the game.

 

Now he is at his right place.

 

Create versatile possibilities with a melee is an obligation.

 

Yes, admittedly with the later patches Paladins saw big improvements, but please don't hit them with the nerf bat in Deadfire as they deserve their time to shine!

 

Yes but some tweaking is required with the orders. 

 

Yet the removal of malus' is understandable in some aspects when you don't have the option of a 'vanilla' class like you do with the rest.  

[KDubya]

Don't forget that in POE1, Paladin was one of the worse class of the game.

 

Now he is at his right place.

 

Create versatile possibilities with a melee is an obligation.

 

How were Paladins in PoE bad? I thought they were one of the better classes and liked to have two of them in my team. Now this is after the big Paladin patch which was the same as the Defender patch.

 

I'd say Paladins now are top tier or maybe even the best. For sure they are the best choice for a multiclass where you care about self sufficiency or survival via better defenses.

 

Since they've taken away their flavorful malus they next need to nerf them hard as they get too many free abilities and are too powerful now with no downside. I'd much rather have a bold color Paladin with a big malus than a bland pastel Paladin that are all various shades of vanilla.