Resolve, Strength vs Might and Casting Time

[vanyel54]

^ You are right, I have over-attenuated the effect of #6.

 

And I understand what you mean by being tailored for your playstyle and preference.

My favored playstyle of high-dps + quick-hard-cc party in general and ciphers in particular is not viable atm as well.

 

Completely agree, actually you could not control the fight (CC spells are too long to cast and/or afflictions changes)

You couldn't even buff you correctly before being engaged.

If Obs want to keep these casting times, perhaps they could authorize some spelling (at least buffs) outside of fight. And with the casting noise, we could have a new element of game play (how far from my target could i cast my weapon invocation etc...)

[Ninjamestari]

To be quite frank, I don't like the separation between combat and out-of-combat mechanics. If you can cast a spell, you should be able to cast it whenever you like. Perhaps you want to cast a protective spell before triggering a trap you cannot disable otherwise? Perhaps you just want to be prepared? I really don't get this new trend of removing all the strategic resource management layers from games, it fundamentally makes the games a lot less interesting.

[Erik-Dirk]

Isn't casting time actually an opportunity to seriously differentiate between the classes of magic? Ciphers and druid could generally be fast cast but hit a lot softer, wizards and priest could generally be slower yet have a more profound impact. 

[Raven Darkholme]

To be quite frank, I don't like the separation between combat and out-of-combat mechanics. If you can cast a spell, you should be able to cast it whenever you like. Perhaps you want to cast a protective spell before triggering a trap you cannot disable otherwise? Perhaps you just want to be prepared? I really don't get this new trend of removing all the strategic resource management layers from games, it fundamentally makes the games a lot less interesting.

Not true, it actually removes cheese from the game.

Remember Baldur's Gate, where you had to install SCS to give enemy casters precast spells, so they could somewhat compete with PC?

No need for that anymore = big win.

[Ninjamestari]

Not true, it actually removes cheese from the game.

Remember Baldur's Gate, where you had to install SCS to give enemy casters precast spells, so they could somewhat compete with PC?

No need for that anymore = big win.

 

The fact that this problem existed doesn't make my statement any less true. I would've preferred some other solution to this, something that doesn't completely sacrifice the strategic layer of the game. A big part of the problem in BG was the incredibly inflexible vancian magic system. A spellpoint system could've been used instead to facilitate drawbacks, such as continual spellpoint drain while a spell is active but no activation cost/time, and like you said, having pre-cast spells on the NPCs also helps. Then naturally there are the ludicrously powerful buffs that lasted too long. What I mean is, that problem could've been solved, and the strategic layer didn't have to be sacrificed.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

Not true, it actually removes cheese from the game.

Remember Baldur's Gate, where you had to install SCS to give enemy casters precast spells, so they could somewhat compete with PC?

No need for that anymore = big win.

 

The fact that this problem existed doesn't make my statement any less true. I would've preferred some other solution to this, something that doesn't completely sacrifice the strategic layer of the game. A big part of the problem in BG was the incredibly inflexible vancian magic system. A spellpoint system could've been used instead to facilitate drawbacks, such as continual spellpoint drain while a spell is active but no activation cost/time, and like you said, having pre-cast spells on the NPCs also helps. Then naturally there are the ludicrously powerful buffs that lasted too long. What I mean is, that problem could've been solved, and the strategic layer didn't have to be sacrificed.

 

How does precasting add a strategic layer?

You just spam all your longer lasting buffs without worry of getting interrupted.

If you have to cast in combat you need to worry about a good buff order (at least if you play with a smaller party or solo, wrong order might mean death) or as a cipher in PoE 1 you had to attack in between to gain focus for buffs etc..

Having to program NPCs with precast buffs is a waste of resources compared to simply making spells combat only.

Not saying strategy in PoE is on SCS level, but let's not forget SCS was a fanmade mod that cost the developer a lot of free time.

[draego]

 

^ You are right, I have over-attenuated the effect of #6.

 

And I understand what you mean by being tailored for your playstyle and preference.

My favored playstyle of high-dps + quick-hard-cc party in general and ciphers in particular is not viable atm as well.

 

Completely agree, actually you could not control the fight (CC spells are too long to cast and/or afflictions changes)

You couldn't even buff you correctly before being engaged.

If Obs want to keep these casting times, perhaps they could authorize some spelling (at least buffs) outside of fight. And with the casting noise, we could have a new element of game play (how far from my target could i cast my weapon invocation etc...)

 

 

any new system in deadfire (longer casting times) that would end up bringing back out of combat buffing back is not working. I hope they just fix the casting times instead of this route but i get why this route would be more attractive now. I loved that POE1 did not have prebuffing and wouldnt want in POE2

Edited January 12, 2018 by draego

[Ninjamestari]

 

 

Not true, it actually removes cheese from the game.

Remember Baldur's Gate, where you had to install SCS to give enemy casters precast spells, so they could somewhat compete with PC?

No need for that anymore = big win.

 

The fact that this problem existed doesn't make my statement any less true. I would've preferred some other solution to this, something that doesn't completely sacrifice the strategic layer of the game. A big part of the problem in BG was the incredibly inflexible vancian magic system. A spellpoint system could've been used instead to facilitate drawbacks, such as continual spellpoint drain while a spell is active but no activation cost/time, and like you said, having pre-cast spells on the NPCs also helps. Then naturally there are the ludicrously powerful buffs that lasted too long. What I mean is, that problem could've been solved, and the strategic layer didn't have to be sacrificed.

 

How does precasting add a strategic layer?

You just spam all your longer lasting buffs without worry of getting interrupted.

If you have to cast in combat you need to worry about a good buff order (at least if you play with a smaller party or solo, wrong order might mean death) or as a cipher in PoE 1 you had to attack in between to gain focus for buffs etc..

Having to program NPCs with precast buffs is a waste of resources compared to simply making spells combat only.

Not saying strategy in PoE is on SCS level, but let's not forget SCS was a fanmade mod that cost the developer a lot of free time.

 

 

Precasting doesn't indeed add a strategic layer alone, but if you limit spells per rest and limit resting, it becomes more of a resource management game. Also, there could be more situations than combat that could utilize said buffs, such as maybe you need elemental resistance to endure the heat of a particularly hot place without taking continuous damage, or perhaps you'll use it to trigger a trap that you cannot disarm otherwise, or maybe there is a timed event that you can boost your speed for. The idea is that you'd have spells for out-of-combat usage also.

 

Also, programming NPCs with precast spells is incredibly easy if the scripting is properly written; you can just flag the spells on the NPC's list you want to be precast and it will happen so. For generic non-named NPCs, this can be a part of the blueprint. In essence, it's about a few lines of code and an extra mouse click or two here and there, not that much work. If you have to mod it in an existing game, THEN it can get tricky, but obsidian has access to their own source code so they can just add that feature in whenever they like.

 

Also, you don't need to have as many as ridiculously powerful buffs in the spell list as there was in D&D if you get rid of the whole vancian spell-slot system. It's all about how the game itself is designed around that concept. All of PoEs problems stem from poor design, and as such, if you really wanted to 'fix' it, you'd have to start the whole design process again with better defined goals features.

[Erik-Dirk]

Rather than having long cast times could we just make it possible to interrupt DOT/Buff/Affliction effects.

[cokane]

To be quite frank, I don't like the separation between combat and out-of-combat mechanics. If you can cast a spell, you should be able to cast it whenever you like. Perhaps you want to cast a protective spell before triggering a trap you cannot disable otherwise? Perhaps you just want to be prepared? I really don't get this new trend of removing all the strategic resource management layers from games, it fundamentally makes the games a lot less interesting.

 

I could not disagree more with this assessment. First off, plenty of pre-combat buffing options already exist. Food. Potions. And priest trap spells. Regular traps too.

 

Second, the game already has such an effortless stealth system, so that 90 percent of the fights permit you to position your guys perfectly before engagement. Not just positioning but you can literally open engagement with things like a volley of ranged shots. With all this, why does the player need more buffs? Adding such a thing would make the game ridiculously easy and actually narrow combat's strategy.

[Yosharian]

 

To be quite frank, I don't like the separation between combat and out-of-combat mechanics. If you can cast a spell, you should be able to cast it whenever you like. Perhaps you want to cast a protective spell before triggering a trap you cannot disable otherwise? Perhaps you just want to be prepared? I really don't get this new trend of removing all the strategic resource management layers from games, it fundamentally makes the games a lot less interesting.

 

I could not disagree more with this assessment. First off, plenty of pre-combat buffing options already exist. Food. Potions. And priest trap spells. Regular traps too.

 

Second, the game already has such an effortless stealth system, so that 90 percent of the fights permit you to position your guys perfectly before engagement. Not just positioning but you can literally open engagement with things like a volley of ranged shots. With all this, why does the player need more buffs? Adding such a thing would make the game ridiculously easy and actually narrow combat's strategy.

 

I also dislike the separation, but I think it's an important part of balancing the game.  Allowing players to enter fights with a ****-ton of buffs creates a lot of problems, not least of which is that encounter difficulty has to be designed with it in mind, meaning that everyone pretty much has to do it or they are nerfing their own power.  And pre-party buffing is ANNOYING AS HELL.

[SonicMage117]

The further they stray from D&D casting rules, the better. The resting formula was always pretty tiresome ajd wasteful. So my vote is that they go with more modern rules from Jrpg's rather than similar to D&D system. Sure Deadfire isn't a Jrpg, but that doesn't mean Crpg's can't have better casting times in the future

 

To be quite frank, I don't like the separation between combat and out-of-combat mechanics. If you can cast a spell, you should be able to cast it whenever you like. Perhaps you want to cast a protective spell before triggering a trap you cannot disable otherwise? Perhaps you just want to be prepared? I really don't get this new trend of removing all the strategic resource management layers from games, it fundamentally makes the games a lot less interesting.

 

I could not disagree more with this assessment. First off, plenty of pre-combat buffing options already exist. Food. Potions. And priest trap spells. Regular traps too.

 

Second, the game already has such an effortless stealth system, so that 90 percent of the fights permit you to position your guys perfectly before engagement. Not just positioning but you can literally open engagement with things like a volley of ranged shots. With all this, why does the player need more buffs? Adding such a thing would make the game ridiculously easy and actually narrow combat's strategy.

Hmmm... I was hoping for something a wee bit more challenging in this regard. Edited January 16, 2018 by SonicMage117

[SaruNi]

My favored playstyle of high-dps + quick-hard-cc party in general and ciphers in particular is not viable atm as well.

 

What about Skalds? "Skalds are the new Ciphers?"

 

Tempted to suggest Assassin/Cipher casting Mental Binding before combat starts... but with 2 second recovery that still only gives you base 4 seconds before cc ends. With 20 int that should be 5 seconds though... and Lingering Echoes adds another 10% for 5.6 seconds... with max dex that might be barely enough to get weapon attacks in between casts. But then focus gain is so slow....

Edited January 16, 2018 by SaruNi

[Tigranes]

 

To be quite frank, I don't like the separation between combat and out-of-combat mechanics. If you can cast a spell, you should be able to cast it whenever you like. Perhaps you want to cast a protective spell before triggering a trap you cannot disable otherwise? Perhaps you just want to be prepared? I really don't get this new trend of removing all the strategic resource management layers from games, it fundamentally makes the games a lot less interesting.

 

I could not disagree more with this assessment. First off, plenty of pre-combat buffing options already exist. Food. Potions. And priest trap spells. Regular traps too.

 

Second, the game already has such an effortless stealth system, so that 90 percent of the fights permit you to position your guys perfectly before engagement. Not just positioning but you can literally open engagement with things like a volley of ranged shots. With all this, why does the player need more buffs? Adding such a thing would make the game ridiculously easy and actually narrow combat's strategy.

 

 

The irony is that in POE, I can't think of many instances where I'd really like to cast spells outside of combat. Everything has been designed to minimise such situations - which is a pity, to  see such beautiful environments reduced to being mostly static flavour for combat, but that's down to the focus of the series.

[Jojobobo]

I've refunded my Deadfire pledge for these reasons, therefore please ignore all my posts in this thread and elsewhere as I no longer have a say. Hope Deadfire works out for the best.

[Ninjamestari]

Whether or not you 'have a say' doesn't depend on whether or not you've coughed up money, it depends on whether or not you have something worth saying.

[illathid]

I've refunded my Deadfire pledge for these reasons, therefore please ignore all my posts in this thread and elsewhere as I no longer have a say. Hope Deadfire works out for the best.

 

While I may disagree with your reason for refunding your pledge, your thoughts are just as valid as anyone else's.