Casters are still slow...

[dunehunter]

Yeah an Assassin/Evoker can do over 200 damage with an assassinate empowered fireball while a normal wizard might do around 30,40 damage with the same spell.

[Boeroer]

So, this one case where a fireball is good (when cast out of stealth which basically circumvents long casting times) justifies the current state of spells? Or what was the point of bringing up that example?

 

The previous example on the other hand illustrates pretty well what the current problem with a lot of spells is.

 

When will the designers realize that their approach of "long casting time vs. interrupts" deteriorates the combat experience? So either severely buff the spell effects (which still makes aiming and waiting a chore, but at least you get something out of it) or lower the casting times. It felt totally ok in PoE, why did they throw that aboard? Just because of that one idea that longer casting + interrupts make for a better tactical experience? Well that seems to go flooey.

 

Please! Return to the casting times of PoE1 or even better adopt the stuff MaxQuest posted. You can still do that tactical approach if you intersperse some slow but POWERFUL spells where interrupting would be a wise thing to do.

But they don't need to have 9(!!!COME ON!!!) seconds of casting time. If you want to be a spell interruptor you might want to have good timing and wait with your long recovery attacks until you see a caster doing his magic and only then attack to interrupt. Or choose weapons/abilities with short recovery so that you can react more quickly.

 

No need to open a time window so big that even a mammoth/slugwalker can interrupt twice during casting times. This gives more tactical depth (since you seem to be into that).

 

But even if there are spells that take 9 seconds to cast: please make them actually do something powerful. 9 seconds to call a summon or to pull some people together for some shirt timespan...? People where complaining about Chanters because they had to wait for ages until they could get off an invocation. How is this any different? You can now summon help when you accumulated enough phrases or/AND the abysmal casting time is over - which is basically 5 seconds after combat ended (watch out, exaggerating here).

[dunehunter]

Well I never say the current stats of caster is OK, as I summarized in earlier post that there are a lot problems and I do agree cast time is too long, same as SaruNi, I’m just trying to figure out if there are any playable caster build in current beta.

 

Finished my play-through in PoTD. For the previous post saying combat ends in 10 second, I wonder were u play in classic or veteran mode? Maybe because I’m not rolling 5 Berserker/Paladin, and I only used 4 characters in my party. The combat feels pretty long for me, I feel a lot of them ends more than 30 seconds, and my wizard can spam all spells and did pretty good damage. My nature godlike evoker maxing Dex, Res and Per did 10k damage in record, same as my main who is a Goldpact/Shifter. And I feel the bigger the combat is, the more useful wizard is. The empowered blast can really have devastating effect and change battles. But that is the only caster build that worked functionally now sadly. Other casters still feels weak and I just try to avoid long cast time spells in my builds.

 

The worst caster now is Cipher, not only because the Str Res split make them bad on both melee and spells, but their low damage and long cast time make it impossible to spam spells like wizard does (if u avoid 6 second cast time spells for wizard it is playable).

 

Priest are bugged right now so I didn’t play them much.

 

Fury is horrible compare to Evoker in damage, Druid blast spells just need some uptune compare to wizard’s. The only good spell I find is Relentless Storm, an empowered Relentless storm is dominating. But only one good spell cannot change druid’s awkward status as caster I feel.

 

Chanters are amazing if you avoid summon spells. I like Troubadour a lot as u can make it into a buffer, or use the Recite modal and spam CC or blast. I had a good time with my Rogue/Troubadour.

Edited January 5, 2018 by dunehunter

[SaruNi]

Agree that spells should be buffed, but Empower does make some spells very powerful. In PoE 1 most of the Vancian caster spells, especially the powerful higher level spells, were generally only used in difficult encounters, or if you wanted to rest a lot. Per-rest empower, +50% action speed potions, and fast-casting scroll versions of spells can partially recreate that dynamic.

 

Ciphers definitely need much shorter casting times. And once the accuracy buff from Tactical Meld (0.5 second cast) works (bugged when last I checked) they'll be a bit better (if it's powerful enough)....

Edited January 5, 2018 by SaruNi

[theBalthazar]

9 seconds is a bad idea, even with strong power.

 

In 9 seconds, A lot of things are happening + bottleneck effect + Oh ! I want to heal my partner and I am at 8 seconds... too bad. Cancel...

 

Max cast time, so globally the first time you hit must be < = 5 seconds. If not, you -can- never play, or play once and it is all (when melee attack 2-3 times since the start of the battle). If you have an effective glass canon team for exemple.

 

CT : Cast time

R : Recovery

 

Slow

5 sec CT + 3 sec R (Total 8 )

 

Average

3 sec CT + 2 sec R (Total 5)

 

Fast

2 sec CT + 1 sec R (Total 3)

 

Instant

0/0,5 sec CT + 0 sec R (Total 0,5 or 0)

 

Seems to be better.

Edited January 5, 2018 by theBalthazar

[dunehunter]

I list a few Spell that is insane when empowered:

 

Minoletta’s Bounding Missile + Empower = super powerful AOE damage, Concussive’s Missile is not as strong as Bounding Missile for damage aspect;

 

Fireball + Empower + Assassinate = 200+ damage if crits in a large area.

 

Relentless Storm + Empower = every enemy in the area get strike by empowered stun lightning, with bonus accuracy.

 

I only listed a few, and I’m expecting to see other spells that I didn’t discover!

Edited January 5, 2018 by dunehunter

[IndiraLightfoot]

I just hope and pray that we'll get to see spell/caster modals the way you suggested, dunehunter. In that way, you effectively diversify empower in so many interesting ways. I mean, I'd love to try to make a caster that specializes in fast casting and fast recovery for spells - assuming we would get a few modals that speed things up in that manner.

[theBalthazar]

Yes with empower.

 

But empower is a neutral concept. For casters AND for melee.

 

Except if it is a wish from devs, I am bored to see sworn ennemy gain nothing, when few spells (not all...) gain a large interrest when empower.

 

So, for me, the problem with empower must be repair. And after that, we stay with the problem of casters again.

 

True story : try an empower on basic sworn ennemy, no gain of accuracy or damage. So... Pure loss...

 

For me it is an error that reduces the interest of the empower for few abilities/spells.

 

Offensives spells = CRAZY. (penetration / Damage / Accuracy ....)

All the rest = VARIABLE : p

Edited January 5, 2018 by theBalthazar

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yup, that's why I suggested earlier that Empower gets ditched in favour of dunehunter's modal suggestions for casters. That would make Deadfire so much more fun to play, and also, the combat tactics gets slightly deeper and much more varied (and thus, we get to build casters that are varied too). All the systems, including UI, are already there, all that's needed is some cool ideas for modals, implementation, and then balancing those caster modals.

Edited January 5, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[dunehunter]

Yes with empower.

 

But empower is a neutral concept. For casters AND for melee.

 

Except if it is a wish from devs, I am bored to see sworn ennemy gain nothing, when few spells (not all...) gain a large interrest when empower.

 

So, for me, the problem with empower must be repair. And after that, we stay with the problem of casters again.

 

True story : try an empower on basic sworn ennemy, no gain of accuracy or damage. So... Pure loss...

 

For me it is an error that reduces the interest of the empower for few abilities/spells.

 

Offensives spells = CRAZY. (penetration / Damage / Accuracy ....)

All the rest = VARIABLE : p

Totally agreed, Empower and these long cast spells will definitely be a newbie traps, as for a player who has few experiences in game, he can pick a lot ‘wrong’ spells, or use Empower on something useless (like u mentioned, Sworn enemy).

 

I do wish they can make Empower work on every ability and spell and do enhance them, instead of 0 effects.

[hilfazer]

 

Offensives spells = CRAZY. (penetration / Damage / Accuracy ....)

 

Any help for spells is welcome.

[Boeroer]

The game gets balanced around classic mode. So it's a good approach to make casters enjoyable in classic mode I'd say. In classic mode most fights end before you can even dish out two 6-secs spells+recovery (not counting the ones from stealth). And even if they are not completely done - most of the time most enemies died or are near death so that a big and meaty AoE nuke would just be total overkill.

 

Chanters in PoE were good in PoTD but most players who only tried them on normal were disappointed by their slowness when it came to invocations. I wouldn't want to repeat that mistake with superlong casting times.

 

There are spells where I'd say that a bit longer casting times make sense. Especially those which always seemed to bee too powerful for their spell level. But those should be exceptions. 

[nordicbstrd]

 

I'm not a fan of the long casting time as it is kind of boring waiting for the spells to be cast.  In fact when I first started the game I thought it was bugged as I didn't think some of the spells were casting at all because they took so long.  Anyway, the real problem is the spells are useless anyway.  Here is a scenario that actually happened. 

 

Got into a fight and got my melee classes to intercept their melee just close enough to their ranged that a fireball would hit everyone.  

Started casting fireball to hit all 5 enemies at once.

Waited

Waited

Waited

Killed one of their guys, only 4 left

Waited

Waited

Fireball launches and ... pffft

Look at damage and see Miss, 11 dam, 11 dam, 9 dam

Wizard is out of the battle for 2.4 more seconds

So I say screw this and Escape with my rogue/cipher to one ranged dude and drop him in like 2 hits then jump to the other dude and one shot him with Soul Annihilation

 

So basically in 8.4 seconds my wizard did 31 damage and used a 3rd level spell and I had to pull some good positioning to do it too.  Or I could just use a monk, berserker, rogue or whatever and straight up kill 2 people maybe a 3rd in that same time.

 

The problem there is probably low penetration and low accuracy relative to reflex. Assassin/Evoker fireball does much more damage (full penetration, doubled damage, critical hit). Think I'll try a death godlike St Elga (or St Elga / Helwalker) scroll user as "tank"---so the multiple assassin AoE spells hit him to induce Near Death and +3 power level, while lay on hands prevents death. Concussive missiles scroll should launch 7 missiles (6 if multiclassing) and the 20% bonus for near death enemies is recalculated for each missile, so if the first 5 achieve near-death, the last two will get the bonus....

 

Alternately you could have had your melee characters hitting them with the flail modal for -25 reflex, using speed boosts like Wild Sprint to hit as many enemies as possible or Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage to land disengagement attacks... the Mace modal only helps penetration a little (-1 AR) and upgraded Into the Fray (-10 AR) is single-target but the Skald's -5 AR invocation can be used right away and hit multiple enemies. (Meanwhile, your Nature Godlike Evoker self-buffs with Deleterious Alacrity for faster casting and +2 power levels Eldritch Aim for +5 accuracy, and a Priest with high dexterity can give her +5 Resolve and +2 Penetration. If you do all this you could easily average 120 damage per enemy = 600 total damage.) This is more interesting than just "waiting waiting waiting"....

 

 

So what you are saying is the pure wizard that the game gave me at the beginning is essentially a worthless wizard and that to have a viable wizard I have to multiclass into assassin to take advantage of stealth mechanics from the multiclass, or I could use my whole team to buff my mage/debuff the enemies just so the one blast actually does some damage.  Once again I might as well just take all melee and use all that time I would have spent casting buffs/debuffs and the spell to instead just slaughter the other team.  

 

Also, how do you propose I hit the ranged characters with the flail modal with my melee characters?  If I go to do that I might as well just kill them with my melee characters because it will be faster anyway.  

 

I like to actually play with the PoE companions too and not necessarily mercenaries that I have min/maxed the crap out of.  You know, to actually get some rpg out of the game.

Edited January 5, 2018 by nordicbstrd

[theBalthazar]

Personnaly I think in POE1, CC spells was indeed a little bit too effective. A little.

 

But Obsidian has nerf all the aspect. Cast time / Critical hit /  Damage ratio DPS / Effect of affliction (Stun ? -30 to -10) for MORE delay of general cast (cast time + Recovery)

 

While there was a difference, a required change, but not that big !

 

If you are a novice, in classic mode, it is like a good player in PotD. I remember my first playtrough for that. I was less effecient in classic mode than few years after, in PoTD.

 

So...^^ It is true Boeroer, but it is above all the knowledge of the game.

 

For now, in my team, no way there is a wizard. Maybe a priest, multiclassed. But not even solo, because he's going bored and ineffective. Let's say it clearly : The casters of this game have a VERY bad image that makes that I do not even want to test them. I feel like 4x more time to finish the beta with them ...

 

I do not take pleasure in playing druids (worse now with the choice : resolve or Strength), cipher (same), wizard and even priest (as his palette is limited at the moment).

Edited January 5, 2018 by theBalthazar

[SaruNi]

 

 

I'm not a fan of the long casting time as it is kind of boring waiting for the spells to be cast.  In fact when I first started the game I thought it was bugged as I didn't think some of the spells were casting at all because they took so long.  Anyway, the real problem is the spells are useless anyway.  Here is a scenario that actually happened. 

 

Got into a fight and got my melee classes to intercept their melee just close enough to their ranged that a fireball would hit everyone.  

Started casting fireball to hit all 5 enemies at once.

Waited

Waited

Waited

Killed one of their guys, only 4 left

Waited

Waited

Fireball launches and ... pffft

Look at damage and see Miss, 11 dam, 11 dam, 9 dam

Wizard is out of the battle for 2.4 more seconds

So I say screw this and Escape with my rogue/cipher to one ranged dude and drop him in like 2 hits then jump to the other dude and one shot him with Soul Annihilation

 

So basically in 8.4 seconds my wizard did 31 damage and used a 3rd level spell and I had to pull some good positioning to do it too.  Or I could just use a monk, berserker, rogue or whatever and straight up kill 2 people maybe a 3rd in that same time.

 

The problem there is probably low penetration and low accuracy relative to reflex. Assassin/Evoker fireball does much more damage (full penetration, doubled damage, critical hit). Think I'll try a death godlike St Elga (or St Elga / Helwalker) scroll user as "tank"---so the multiple assassin AoE spells hit him to induce Near Death and +3 power level, while lay on hands prevents death. Concussive missiles scroll should launch 7 missiles (6 if multiclassing) and the 20% bonus for near death enemies is recalculated for each missile, so if the first 5 achieve near-death, the last two will get the bonus....

 

Alternately you could have had your melee characters hitting them with the flail modal for -25 reflex, using speed boosts like Wild Sprint to hit as many enemies as possible or Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage to land disengagement attacks... the Mace modal only helps penetration a little (-1 AR) and upgraded Into the Fray (-10 AR) is single-target but the Skald's -5 AR invocation can be used right away and hit multiple enemies. (Meanwhile, your Nature Godlike Evoker self-buffs with Deleterious Alacrity for faster casting and +2 power levels Eldritch Aim for +5 accuracy, and a Priest with high dexterity can give her +5 Resolve and +2 Penetration. If you do all this you could easily average 120 damage per enemy = 600 total damage.) This is more interesting than just "waiting waiting waiting"....

 

 

So what you are saying is the pure wizard that the game gave me at the beginning is essentially a worthless wizard and that to have a viable wizard I have to multiclass into assassin to take advantage of stealth mechanics from the multiclass, or I could use my whole team to buff my mage/debuff the enemies just so the one blast actually does some damage.  Once again I might as well just take all melee and use all that time I would have spent casting buffs/debuffs and the spell to instead just slaughter the other team.  

 

Also, how do you propose I hit the ranged characters with the flail modal with my melee characters?  If I go to do that I might as well just kill them with my melee characters because it will be faster anyway.  

 

 

 

If you want to cast a BAMF massive fireball that causes massive damage to multiple enemies with a single shot, yes. Or you could just use your per-rest empower point. Or invest in Alchemy to get better effects from potions and buy or craft (you can "craft" with the console now, but crafting will be implemented in the game) potions or scrolls.

 

Ranged weapon users have:

 

Upgraded Wounding Shot---causes Hobbled (-5 dex = -10 reflex)

Crippling Shot (Hobbled)

Blinding Shot (Blinded, -5 perception = -10 reflex, stacks with hobbled)

Withering Shot (Weakened, -5 strength = -10 fortitude)

Bleak Walker Flames of Devotion (Sickened, -5 constitution = -10 fortitude, stacks with weakened)

 

You can use the hunting bow modal to shoot more quickly, especially if you already have high accuracy from Ranger or Paladin abilities.

 

For reaching enemies quickly, melee Barbarians have Dragon Leap and Wild Sprint, melee thieves and rangers can use escape (escape *into* combat with +50 deflection) and evasive roll (Nimble inspiration, +5 dex = +15% action speed).

Edited January 5, 2018 by SaruNi

[Gromnir]

As I said before: consider it to be a self buff (which it technically is). Nearly all self buffs have a casting time of 0.5 secs.

 

There's no mechanical difference in buffing yourself with +15 ACC or summoning a weapon which has +15 ACC (as long as you only intend to attack with the weapon)

and as Gromnir pointed out some time ago, if you wanna analogize to self buff, then you should accept reduced durations.  casting time and durations is all part how such spells is balanced. the summoned weapons, with durations equivalent to other self buffs, will sudden become far less useful in the more challenging encounters of the game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[SaruNi]

The game gets balanced around classic mode. So it's a good approach to make casters enjoyable in classic mode I'd say. In classic mode most fights end before you can even dish out two 6-secs spells+recovery (not counting the ones from stealth). And even if they are not completely done - most of the time most enemies died or are near death so that a big and meaty AoE nuke would just be total overkill.

 

Chanters in PoE were good in PoTD but most players who only tried them on normal were disappointed by their slowness when it came to invocations. I wouldn't want to repeat that mistake with superlong casting times.

 

There are spells where I'd say that a bit longer casting times make sense. Especially those which always seemed to bee too powerful for their spell level. But those should be exceptions. 

 

AoE spells with duration can be cast before combat. You can stack Malignant Cloud, Chill Fog, Binding Web, Wall of Fire, Pull of Eora... and lead the enemies into it with your ranger companion (who gets no injuries after being knocked out). 

 

That's the whole point of the new "loudness" variable. You precast from stealth to lead enemies into ambushes, magical traps, and strategic arrangements....

 

Casting time and duration are balanced so you can only stack a limited number of spells (depending on intelligence) per caster. 

 

Anyway, haven't they said there will be equippable items which reduce casting time? They should add those in the next major beta update. (Maybe they wanted to encourage us to experiment with the stealth and loudness system?)

Edited January 5, 2018 by SaruNi

[Boeroer]

Then they should have inserted those items into the beta in order to get proper feedback on casters. At the moment they get a crapstorm - although a mostly constructive one.

 

 

 

As I said before: consider it to be a self buff (which it technically is). Nearly all self buffs have a casting time of 0.5 secs.

There's no mechanical difference in buffing yourself with +15 ACC or summoning a weapon which has +15 ACC (as long as you only intend to attack with the weapon)

and as Gromnir pointed out some time ago, if you wanna analogize to self buff, then you should accept reduced durations.  casting time and durations is all part how such spells is balanced. the summoned weapons, with durations equivalent to other self buffs, will sudden become far less useful in the more challenging encounters of the game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

No. Because the universal self buff would give you +15 ACC for everything - while the +15 on the weapon is only useful if you attack with said weapon.

 

But if shorter durations are required to make the summoneing process faster then so be it. Somebody who wants to focus on summoned weapons can call forth one and the same weapon twice per encounter - or just use a summoned weapon from another spell level.

I'd rather have a fast cast with a shorter duration than a long cast with a long duration.  

[Gromnir]

Then they should have inserted those items into the beta in order to get proper feedback on casters. At the moment they get a crapstorm - although a mostly constructive one.

 

 

 

As I said before: consider it to be a self buff (which it technically is). Nearly all self buffs have a casting time of 0.5 secs.

 

There's no mechanical difference in buffing yourself with +15 ACC or summoning a weapon which has +15 ACC (as long as you only intend to attack with the weapon)

and as Gromnir pointed out some time ago, if you wanna analogize to self buff, then you should accept reduced durations.  casting time and durations is all part how such spells is balanced. the summoned weapons, with durations equivalent to other self buffs, will sudden become far less useful in the more challenging encounters of the game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

No. Because the universal self buff would give you +15 ACC for everything - while the +15 on the weapon is only useful if you attack with said weapon.

 

But if shorter durations are required to make the summoneing process faster then so be it. Somebody who wants to focus on summoned weapons can call forth one and the same weapon twice per encounter - or just use a summoned weapon from another spell level.

I'd rather have a fast cast with a shorter duration than a long cast with a long duration.  

you do realize distinguishing universal is simple another quality which is making the analogy less​ useful, yes? you made an observation 'bout self buffs being quick casts and analogized summoned weapons to self buffs.  self buffs often have limited durations, regardless o' the effects.  the more you help us distinguish summons and self buffs, the more you relegate durations and cast times to being nothing more than ordinary aspect o' balancing rather than some kinda inherent quality o' a class o' spells.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[SaruNi]

What if there were different tiers of summoned weapons? I like the idea of taking longer to summon a more powerful weapon (Priest's 60% lash, Citzal's special ability). Fast cast with a minor bonus (like dealing elemental damage), medium casting time with a moderate bonus (Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff), long casting time with larger bonus (Priest)....

 

Summoned weapons also effectively give you an extra weapon slot. That can be extremely useful with 2 to 4 firearms and/or weapons with spellbindings (as well as having an extra ranged set in Kakaloth's Minor Blights). 

 

With grimoires it's not that hard to add Wizard spells (and with craftable scrolls and item spell-bindings, spells more generally...).

 

Some spells---like Concelhaut's Draining Touch---are already implemented as a summoned weapon with one use. There could be variants on that....

Edited January 5, 2018 by SaruNi

[nordicbstrd]

 

 

 

 

I'm not a fan of the long casting time as it is kind of boring waiting for the spells to be cast.  In fact when I first started the game I thought it was bugged as I didn't think some of the spells were ...

 

 

The problem there is probably low penetration and low accuracy relative to reflex. Assassin/Evoker fireball does much more damage (full penetration, doubled damage, critical hit). Think I'll try a death ...

 

 

So what you are saying is the pure wizard that the game gave me at the beginning is essentially a worthless wizard and that to have a viable wizard I have to multiclass into assassin to take advantage of stealth mechanics from the multiclass, or I could use my whole team to buff my mage/debuff the enemies just so the one blast actually does some damage.  Once again I might as well just take all melee and use all that time I would have spent casting buffs/debuffs and the spell to instead just slaughter the other team.  

 

Also, how do you propose I hit the ranged characters with the flail modal with my melee characters?  If I go to do that I might as well just kill them with my melee characters because it will be faster anyway.  

 

 

 

If you want to cast a BAMF massive fireball that causes massive damage to multiple enemies with a single shot, yes. Or you could just use your per-rest empower point. Or invest in Alchemy to get better effects from potions and buy or craft (you can "craft" with the console now, but crafting will be implemented in the game) potions or scrolls.

 

Ranged weapon users have:

 

Upgraded Wounding Shot---causes Hobbled (-5 dex = -10 reflex)

Crippling Shot (Hobbled)

Blinding Shot (Blinded, -5 perception = -10 reflex, stacks with hobbled)

Withering Shot (Weakened, -5 strength = -10 fortitude)

Bleak Walker Flames of Devotion (Sickened, -5 constitution = -10 fortitude, stacks with weakened)

 

You can use the hunting bow modal to shoot more quickly, especially if you already have high accuracy from Ranger or Paladin abilities.

 

For reaching enemies quickly, melee Barbarians have Dragon Leap and Wild Sprint, melee thieves and rangers can use escape (escape *into* combat with +50 deflection) and evasive roll (Nimble inspiration, +5 dex = +15% action speed).

 

 

I was using the default characters given.  I had none of those to use and I'm assuming if I use the default companions in the game I may or may not have any of those to use either, which I like to use the companions in the game to get some of that rp in the rpg.

 

Regardless, I didn't say I needed to do massive damage.  Just useful damage.  31 damage on a spell that takes 8.5 seconds to cast and recover from is completely not useful.  In fact it is so useless it was actually detrimental to my encounter to even try to set up the use of it.  I would have been better off just taking my fighter in and getting the melee guys on him and jumping to the back line with my 2 rogue characters and killing the 2 ranged characters in back in approximately 4 seconds and then coming back to fight the melee guys from two sides.  My wizard could just stand in the corner picking her nose for all the good she did.

[SaruNi]

A few fast-cast 1st level summoned weapons could be scattered across early game grimoires... keeping it to one per grimoire would make it less like the Black Jacket's special subclass bonus (even though it's still an extra weapon set and an extra weapon option per summon). Identical to ordinary (level scaled) weapons but with elemental damage replacing one of their damage types. Maybe more powerful weapons later, with either limited uses or longer casting time....

Edited January 6, 2018 by SaruNi

[Katarack21]

 

Then they should have inserted those items into the beta in order to get proper feedback on casters. At the moment they get a crapstorm - although a mostly constructive one.

 

 

 

As I said before: consider it to be a self buff (which it technically is). Nearly all self buffs have a casting time of 0.5 secs.

 

There's no mechanical difference in buffing yourself with +15 ACC or summoning a weapon which has +15 ACC (as long as you only intend to attack with the weapon)

and as Gromnir pointed out some time ago, if you wanna analogize to self buff, then you should accept reduced durations.  casting time and durations is all part how such spells is balanced. the summoned weapons, with durations equivalent to other self buffs, will sudden become far less useful in the more challenging encounters of the game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

No. Because the universal self buff would give you +15 ACC for everything - while the +15 on the weapon is only useful if you attack with said weapon.

 

But if shorter durations are required to make the summoneing process faster then so be it. Somebody who wants to focus on summoned weapons can call forth one and the same weapon twice per encounter - or just use a summoned weapon from another spell level.

I'd rather have a fast cast with a shorter duration than a long cast with a long duration.  

you do realize distinguishing universal is simple another quality which is making the analogy less​ useful, yes? you made an observation 'bout self buffs being quick casts and analogized summoned weapons to self buffs.  self buffs often have limited durations, regardless o' the effects.  the more you help us distinguish summons and self buffs, the more you relegate durations and cast times to being nothing more than ordinary aspect o' balancing rather than some kinda inherent quality o' a class o' spells.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Durations and cast times *are* nothing more than ordinary aspects of balancing. But you have to balance summon weapon spells *as summon weapon spells*, around their own unique capabilities and limitations. Summoned weapons are a distinct class of spells--they are not like self-buffs, attack spells, or CC. Just as you cannot balance a fireball the same way you would balance blind, you can't balance summoned weapons the same way you balance self-buffs--because they are different in how they work and if you do so you'll end up with badly balanced spells.

[SaruNi]

If you want summoned weapons to be more like a self-buff rather than an extra weapon set (per summonable weapon), how about a 1st level fast cast spell "summon weapon from [magical item... maybe a charred or icy or corroded fragment of grimoire]" that corresponds to a set of items you can equip in your weapon slots, with each item letting you summon a different magical weapon by using the spell? So it's basically a wizard-only item that you equip like a regular weapon but also have to summon with a spell point. (Just don't call it a lightsaber....)

Edited January 6, 2018 by SaruNi

[Katarack21]

If you want summoned weapons to be more like a self-buff rather than an extra weapon set (per summonable weapon), how about a 1st level fast cast spell "summon weapon from [magical item... maybe a charred or icy or corroded fragment of grimoire]" that corresponds to a set of items you can equip in your weapon slots, with each item letting you summon a different magical weapon by using the spell? So it's basically a wizard-only item that you equip like a regular weapon but also have to summon with a spell point. (Just don't call it a lightsaber....)

"That would be copywrite infringement. This is a psionic soul-blade."

Edited January 6, 2018 by Katarack21