SUGGESTION: Stat Changes

[Ninjamestari]

 

"All builds are viable" is not an attainable or reasonable goal, and I think some of the terminology/wording gets mixed up in these discussions. Most people aren't rooting for that, and the ones who are are either confused or just haven't thought things out very well.

That is a logical fallacy; it's built on the assumption that you *must* be right, and the only reason people don't agree is because they can't see how right you are.

 

In actuality, people have different points of view, different goals, different desires, and different ways of achieving things, and some of them understand the whole thing just as well as you and think you are wrong. It's really that simple.

 

 

Different points of view have really no bearing on reality. Reality doesn't really care what you think, and just because you don't want the "all builds are viable" nonsense, doesn't make it any less nonsense. The only way to achieve the "all builds are viable" is to make a system where your build has zero implications to your gameplay, and that just isn't even remotely interesting. The only people who can enjoy a system like that are people who don't really understand what the system does in the first place.

 

EDIT: in essence Lephys just happens to be right, not because he 'must' be right, but because his view accurately reflects the reality of things.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Ninjamestari

[MortyTheGobbo]

I'm starting to think Pillars' biggest mistake is not going all the way in the direction of non-standard attributes. They wanted something new, but still used a mostly vanilla spread, with all the problems it inherits. Then fixed one specific problem, that of Strength being useless or redundant for more than a half of character concepts, with a rather awkward stopgap measure.

 

Then again, the only real problem with it was some awkward dialogue and scripted interactions. And in Deadfire, Resolve became less than useful before the update. Once again, attributes just don't matter as much as people seem to think they do, whether in Pillars or any other RPG.

[Osvir]

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95297-please-revert-the-might-changes/?p=1965319

Just some thoughts on how Attributes could see less dumping by spreading out some of the effects of Attributes. E.g. Why does only ONE Attribute have to govern how strong your spells are? Why not two? If you don't want to click the link, here's the jist of a general Concept:
 

Strength = +1% Weapon Damage, +1% Spell Damage, +1 Foritude, +1 Reflex, +1 Will
Constitution = +2% Area of Effect, +5% Health, +3 Fortitude
Dexterity = +3% Action Speed, +1% Duration, +3 Reflex
Perception = +2% Weapon Damage, +1 Accuracy, +1 Reflex
Intellect = +2% Spell Damage and +1% Healing, +4% Area of Effect, +3% Duration, +1 Will
Resolve = +2% Healing, +1% Duration, +1 Deflection, +3 Will

 

The general idea is that each "Defense" value gets one Offensive Attribute and one Defensive Attribute:

Defensive:
- Constitutiton +3 Fortitude
- Dexterity  +3 Reflex
- Resolve +3 Will

Offensive
- Strength +1 Fortitude (+1 Reflex, +1 Will)
- Perception +1 Reflex
- Resolve +1 Will

And why does "Strength" get so much added to it? Well, I'm actually thinking about "Might" in this regard, and how it was explained to us. "Strength of Soul" or "Might of Soul", and hence it should be a bit more general. Perhaps instead of "Might" or "Strength" it could simply be that... "Soul".

Edited December 23, 2017 by Osvir

[Ninjamestari]

The general idea, if you want to have balanced stats that make sense, is to have each attribute govern something fundamental about the character. Like in D&D, where you can't really have any dump stats without suffering greatly for it, not in any decent session anyway. You need to think outside the PoE box, start with the fantasy, the 'reality' behind the stats, and the rest can be derived from there. In D&D, a character with STR 3 can barely carry their own equipment, DEX 3 is a bumbling fool who can't even walk straight, CON 3 and you're almost dead, WIS 3 and your character could stare down a charging horde of barbarians and not realize that something is going on, INT 3 and you can't even talk and CHA 3 and you're so repulsive person that even a mother couldn't love you.

 

I mean, why would anyone try to re-invent the wheel when the old concept works perfectly and provides the proper context for everything the stats should do in an intuitive and balanced way. This isn't rocket science guys, you don't have to think on the abstract level to figure it out, the only point you need some abstract thinking is figuring out how to represent those things mathematically in the game, and even that is ridiculously easy. The D&D concept makes the effects of different abilities incredibly obvious.

 

And as far as the soul stuff goes, the world of Pillars simply isn't wacky enough so that it could benefit from attribute concepts that have no roots in reality; if soul is the source of all your traits and your physical shape has no meaning, then you'd need a lot wackier world for that concept to fit; maybe some cross-breed between Planescape and Tides of Numenera, and you'd have a setting where the properties of soul might provide an interesting and fitting basis for how each character stat works. But a world where physics obviously works pretty much the same as in our real reality, where big men with swords and gunpowder are the main ways to wage war, the stats really need to be grounded in reality.

 

EDIT: also, tying a single property, such as melee or spell strength, to multiple attributes is kinda bad idea. If you don't have enough properties for six attributes so that each can be unique and distinct, then you either have to create more properties or reduce the number of attributes. All in all, you don't want your character stats to be vague, as that completely kills any sort of identity they might have withing the context of the game, and if the fantasy and the game have been utterly separated this way, then the immersion suffers immensely.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Ninjamestari

[MortyTheGobbo]

The general idea, if you want to have balanced stats that make sense, is to have each attribute govern something fundamental about the character. Like in D&D, where you can't really have any dump stats without suffering greatly for it, not in any decent session anyway. You need to think outside the PoE box, start with the fantasy, the 'reality' behind the stats, and the rest can be derived from there. In D&D, a character with STR 3 can barely carry their own equipment, DEX 3 is a bumbling fool who can't even walk straight, CON 3 and you're almost dead, WIS 3 and your character could stare down a charging horde of barbarians and not realize that something is going on, INT 3 and you can't even talk and CHA 3 and you're so repulsive person that even a mother couldn't love you.

 

I mean, why would anyone try to re-invent the wheel when the old concept works perfectly and provides the proper context for everything the stats should do in an intuitive and balanced way. This isn't rocket science guys, you don't have to think on the abstract level to figure it out, the only point you need some abstract thinking is figuring out how to represent those things mathematically in the game, and even that is ridiculously easy. The D&D concept makes the effects of different abilities incredibly obvious.

 

And as far as the soul stuff goes, the world of Pillars simply isn't wacky enough so that it could benefit from attribute concepts that have no roots in reality; if soul is the source of all your traits and your physical shape has no meaning, then you'd need a lot wackier world for that concept to fit; maybe some cross-breed between Planescape and Tides of Numenera, and you'd have a setting where the properties of soul might provide an interesting and fitting basis for how each character stat works. But a world where physics obviously works pretty much the same as in our real reality, where big men with swords and gunpowder are the main ways to wage war, the stats really need to be grounded in reality.

 

EDIT: also, tying a single property, such as melee or spell strength, to multiple attributes is kinda bad idea. If you don't have enough properties for six attributes so that each can be unique and distinct, then you either have to create more properties or reduce the number of attributes. All in all, you don't want your character stats to be vague, as that completely kills any sort of identity they might have withing the context of the game, and if the fantasy and the game have been utterly separated this way, then the immersion suffers immensely.

 

Those discussions would be far more productive if people didn't keep claiming D&D attributes are a gold standard that's not worth straying from.

 

Dumping any attribute to 3 would make your character barely functional... which is why no one does it and why it's a ridiculous example with no basis in actual play. Do the rules even allow for it? What you can do is dump an attribute to 8. Or 6, if you've got a penalty. Doing it for strength will hinder you very little if you're not fighting with melee weapons. Doing it for charisma will hinder you very little if you don't invest any ranks/proficiency into social skills - whether or not you have a negative or zero modifier matters very little at that point.

 

Doing it for the rest of the attributes is more difficult, but that just reveals the deep imbalance among them. That being said, in 4E or 5E, intelligence has little to no use for someone who doesn't rely on it for their spells or attacks. Constitution is everyone's second choice, as you don't want it to be low, but you don't need it to be high, either. Unless the game arbitrarily decides it's your main attack stat, like 4E sometimes does. And your main stat is hard-locked the moment you select your class.

 

That, and when I think of vague attributes, Wisdom from D&D kind of takes the cake. Why is it both perception and willpower, again?

 

Besides... GURPS does fine with four attributes and assorted derivatives. Storyreller games have nine of them, in various configurations. The Conan 2d20 system has 7, with a single Brawn stat governing both Strength and Constitution as traditionally understood. Warhammer RPGs have melee and ranged attacks governed by their own, entirely separate stats, which is a holdover from wargames but works surprisingly well. Why are we talking about it in terms of D&D or bust? The evolution of that franchise has rendered attributes largely vestigial, anyway. D&D 5E would function smoother without them.

 

Moreover, attributes are always going to be vague approximations of abilities. Particularly so in a computer game, where the players and GMs can't interpret and fiddle with what they represent.

Edited December 23, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[KDubya]

I started long ago with AD&D, actually my first experience was with actual D&D before AD&D came out. Nothing about those stats were balanced, a 17 str was barely an advantage and you needed an 18/76+ to actually start to see a difference. Best move was in Baldurs gate picking a 1/2 Orc and just getting a 19 for a massive increase. Strength controlled both hitting and damage and was the be all stat for any melee.

 

A Wizard had best have an 18 int or else he was going to be hard blocked from getting the highest level spells.

 

Getting a 20 con (dwarf or 1/2 orc after reading a manual) got you regen so you never had to spend weeks resting and healing after a hard fight.

 

D&D 3.0 and beyond just changed how you rolled and ended up just making characters into clone builds. Want a Paladin who gets to use the top end powers? Best get your charisma to 25+. The same applies to every class. Add in required feats and you end up needing a separate program like a character builder in order to navigate your way through and get the feats that you want. Every stat not on the critical path was dumped. 

 

Now the SPECIAL stat system in Fallout was rather unique and seemed rather balanced. The character system in Fallout 4 had great potential but is ultimately brought down by the ability to max out every stat and get every perk through limitless leveling. In New Vegas the stats did a good job and promoted diversity and every character could be different from someone else's.

 

PoE system allowed for different stats to all be useful. An effective Fighter could concentrate on Might or Perception or Dexterity and be relatively balanced offensively. It gave great flexibility in how you built a character. A Wizard using single target spells like missiles could go all in on Might, one wanting more AoE would need to balance in Intellect, while one concentrating on crowd control could forego Might and go all in on Intellect for duration, and all would need enough Perception to be able to land their spells. It was a deep system with many subtleties. 

 

Now DeadFire looks to be getting much more simplified. Wizards who won't be using auto attacks can completely dump Strength with NO DOWNSIDE. Anyone without spells or healing can dump Resolve, unfortunately most everyone has one or the other so they'd best leave it at base ten.

 

If Resolve needs a purpose here are two options:

• Have Resolve decrease or increase the duration of negative afflictions or DoTs applied against you. Basically it'd act like how your Intellect increases duration on your spells but would effect your enemies spells.
• Split Intellect and give Resolve the duration part while Intellect keeps the AoE part.

 Either way they should drop the deflection boost from Resolve and give it to Perception.

[Ninjamestari]

- D&D is simply an example of how to do stats right, it may not be the only way, but they WERE the basis for PoE stats, and they ARE a lot better than PoE stats. Also, keep in mind the distinction that I'm talking about the concepts, not the math here; you can always screw things up with bad mechanical design, like AD&D did, but as concepts, D&D stats *are* the gold standard, and I already explained why. They work, they cover all the fundamental aspects of the character, and they are deeply rooted in reality.

 

- Dumping any attribute to 3 doesn't make your character barely functional in PoE1, and is exactly what every single power-player does.

 

- So the fact that some abilities are more important for certain types of characters makes the system "deeply imbalanced"? Please....

 

- Willpower and Perception often go hand in hand, and Wisdom in D&D is close enough to reality that it works.

 

- Attributes are always going to be abstractions to a degree, but claiming that as a reason to not seek to root them in actual reality is just moronic. It's like saying that language is always up for interpretation, thus anyone can speak pig-latin for all we care and everything will still work fine.

 

I'm sorry Morty, but your views are all pretty much fundamentally false. It seems like you think like some French philosopher who thinks everything is up for personal interpretation and that every interpretation is somehow valid at the same time. This is the most pretentious way of thinking in existence, as it allows people with little or no understanding over anything to pretend they're wise and knowledgeable. Don't think like that, it can only lead to bad ideas.

[MortyTheGobbo]

Nothing I could possibly do would be nearly as pretentious as addressing half my points and then incorrectly using philosophical arguments to declare all my views as fundamentally false.

 

- You haven't explained why D&D stats are a gold standard, you've simply asserted repeatedly that they are and ignored everyone pointing out why they're not.

 

- Dumping your abilities isn't an easy problem to solve in a videogame without simply locking players away from it. Without a GM to enforce the consequences of barely-functional attributes, players can bypass them.

 

If Pillars used D&D stats... dumping wizards' or rogues' might to 3 would be routine. If the game actually used an encumbrance system, they'd take enough strength to carry their equipment, then hand the rest off to stronger party members. This would also discourage martial characters with low strength, decreasing build diversity. Which, granted, is something D&D does frequently, so maybe it's desirable for you. Dumping Charisma would be safe for... everyone who's not the main character or uses it for their magic. Intelligence would be a safe dump stat for every non-magical character, unless you made it affect skills - which would require completely altering the way they work.

 

If we want to discourage players from dumping stats, we need to make penalties for low values harsher and more universally-applicable. This can be done in a number of ways, none of which have anything to do with the way D&D uses attributes. Plenty of games, both tabletop and video, simply don't allow to lower them below a certain value.

 

- The deep imbalance doesn't come from some attributes being more important for some concepts. That's just your misinterpretation of my argument. The imbalance is caused by some attributes being more important than others, period, for more character concepts. Dumping strength is safe for anyone who doesn't fight with strength-only weapons. Dumping charisma is safe for anyone not engaging with social skills. Intelligence was crucial in 3E for skill points, but in editions without skill points, it goes right back to being a dump stat for non-wizards. And even in 3E, some classes have so few skills a few points here and there make little difference - while others have a good selection without good intelligence. It's a secondary concern, and only wizards and some other arcane casters will focus on it. Not so much for dexterity, wisdom or constitution.

 

- Why should willpower and perception go hand in hand? Even without getting hung up on representing reality exactly, there's plenty of people who are strong-willed but not very perceptive and vice versa. Which is why many systems treat them entirely separately... in fact, all non-D&D systems I can think of do that. Mechanically-speaking, both perception and willpower are strong enough concepts to stand on their own - "noticing things" and "being strong-willed" are both traits that every character will find useful to a degree. Wisdom doesn't represent reality and doesn't work as a mechanical portrayal of capability.

 

- I never claimed there's no reason to root them in actual reality - that's a strawman. My point was that they're never going to be an exact representation of reality, so we should focus on how they work in the context of the game and its fiction. Their connection to reality will work out mostly the same regardless of what we do... because D&D attributes aren't somehow closer to reality than Pillars attributes, WH attributes, CoD attributes or GURPS attributes.

 

The rest of your responses to that particular point are complete non-sequiturs intended only to insult me. And push your bizarre idea that your opponents in this discussion are... claiming everything is subjective. To which you've dedicated more words than actually refuting anyone's points, seeing as you've ignored KDubya's post entirely.

Edited December 24, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[Osvir]

I understand that drastic changes are perhaps... drastic. Radical. I'm mostly just brainstorming in search of... improvements whilst keeping the core concept.

Let me try portraying a more "minimalistic" change/concept:

Might/Strength = +2% Spell Damage and Healing, +2% Weapon Damage, +1 Fortitude
Constitution = +5% Health, +2 Fortitude
Dexterity = +3% Action Speed, +2 Reflex
Perception = +1% Weapon Damage, +1 Accuracy, +1 Reflex
Intellect = +6% Area of Effect, +5% Duration, +1 Will
Resolve = +1% Spell Damage and Healing +1 Deflection, +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex, +3 Will

 

- Returning most of the "Spell Damage and Healing" to Strength, leaving 1% at Resolve
- Moving 1% "Weapon Damage" to Perception, leaving 2% on Strength
- Removing 1 Fortitude, 1 Reflex, 1 Will, from Strength, Perception, Intellect, respectively, and moving 1 of each to Resolve

3 changes. Why am I hell bent on splitting up stats? I don't know, it just looks nice. I would love to try it out. Anyone know how to mod Character Creation/Attributes yet?

Edited December 24, 2017 by Osvir

[tinysalamander]

“Might, Finess, Resolve, Luck” ought to be enough for anybody

[Wormerine]

Have been playing with the system a bit (not much mind you), and while I still support the change my initial impression is that many classes don't benefit enough from both strengh and resolve. I find myself quite restricted regarding perks I can get depending if I have a high strenght or resolve build. I have been playing so far purely with single class characters. It might be better if we go multiclass and have a wider choice of skills to choose from. 

[Ninjamestari]

- Yes, I have explained why D&D stats are the gold standard, repeatedly, and I even made the distinction that I was talking about the concepts, not the mechanical implementation to make things more clear. I find it highly pretentious  of you to ignore that fact while blaming me of ignoring your non-existing counter-points. So let's try again. The D&D stats cover all the fundamental aspects of a character and they are deeply rooted in reality and thus are highly intuitive. Also, in this context, D&D IS the very inspiration for PoE stats, so it's a natural comparison.

 

-Dumping abilities is incredibly easy to fix, it takes work and planning, but it definitely isn't difficult, as I think I've explained already. All you need to do is to have the fundamental aspects of your character tied to the abilities, and script situations where those are taken into account. If your CHA is low enough, you don't gain access to most dialogue or quests, if your INT is low enough, your character can't even speak properly and doesn't even get any skill points, if your CON is low enough, enemies only have to sneeze at you in order to kill you because of your low HP, if your STR is low enough, you can't even carry your equipment as even a hat goes beyond your carry limit, if your WIS is low enough, everything confuses you, low DEX and you stumble and fall around all the time. All it takes is a little creative scripting and smart spell/ability design, it definitely isn't difficult. Work intensive, yes, but entirely doable. All you need to do is script elements as blueprints and then use them in the design of the maps and encounters.

 

- PoE uses PoE stats, dumping a wizard's RES to 3 is routine. Also, why are you acting like martial characters who are too weak to lift their own swords would be a good thing? Nothing is more retarded than the low STR warrior with a melee weapon, even though it is the dream of some of the more pathetic individuals of nerd-kind. Somehow I get the feeling that you want a system where your choices don't have consequences and you can be anything at any time, regardless of how you've built your character. You may as well have a game that doesn't have a stat system at all.

 

- it's not that willpower and perception "should" go hand in hand, they just usually do, mainly because being perceptive requires focus and the willpower to maintain that focus. It's one of those fundamental reality things that should be obvious to anyone who is alive and has ever done anything in the real world.

 

-Yes, D&D attributes *are* a lot closer to reality than PoE attributes. At this point I'm not sure if you're just attempting to troll or if you really just lack any sense of reality. Also PoE fiction suffers from the disconnection between its stats and reality, as like I've explained before, PoE world functions physically like our reality, gunpowder releases chemically bound energy to exert force upon the bullet, warriors use their physical muscles to lift their swords, wizards learn complicated methods and concepts to control their spells, and the stats don't represent that.

[MortyTheGobbo]

- If you're talking about concepts, then D&D stats aren't special. Or any more rooted in reality than any other attribute system out there. They're all vague approximations that are meant to serve the game's particular needs. Even the problem with dexterity being too broad and strength being too narrow is pretty common. The only really unique quirk is treating wisdom as a viable attribute.

 

- Yes, it's so incredibly easy no game has actually done that. The closest we've ever got was Fallout's low-intelligence dialogue. Planescape: Torment, the crown jewel of RPGs for some, certainly doesn't do any of that. It rewards you for high scores... mental ones, that is. There's some occasional dialogue for high Strength or Dexterity, but nothing for Constitution. Nothing special for low scores... in fact, it doesn't even let you drop them below 9 in character generation. What you're talking about is a tremendous amount of work for writers and programmers, all for content that few players will ever see... in fact, it's content you want to discourage people from ever seeing.

 

- Can you try to make your argument without adding some slippery slope about what I clearly want, even though I never said anything of the sort? Not using the word "retarded" would also be nice. I've managed to argue without insulting you or using slurs. In Pillars, I played a fighter who invested more in dexterity and perception than in might, and that was fine. You don't have to do it if you don't want that. A character with a strength/might/whatever of 10 isn't "too weak to lift their own weapon", either. They're simply not strong enough to strike particularly hard. I simply made a choice to focus on speed of attacks and accuracy more than raw damage per attack.

 

Also, the dreaded hypothetical you try to foist on me actually exists. Plenty of games, tabletop or video, don't use a "strength" attribute. Or attributes at all. That doesn't make them lack for choices and options. You might want to check out the Song of Ice and Fire tabletop RPG, a very crunchy and involved system where there are no attributes, just a list of abilities.

 

- "Fundamental", "obvious", "anyone"... you keep using large quantifiers to avoid having to back up your argument. Which I have done - I've given you examples of characters for whom willpower and perception do not go hand in hand. A thief can have sharp senses and semi-paranoid awareness, while being a weak-willed coward. A knight will have steadfast resolve while being slow on the uptake. A ranger is very perceptive but their willpower isn't remarkable one way or the other. I can go on. Do you have counter-examples, or will you just keep saying how obvious it is?

 

- Here you go with accusing me of trolling or being delusional. Again. Let's just move on. Pillars' attributes are a bog-standard RPG set. The only remarkable one is Might. Everything else... Dexterity, Perception, Constitution, Intellect, Resolve. I've seen them time and again. Might is the only noteworthy case, because it tries to deal with the likewise common problem of "strength" being a dump stat for all but some character concepts. It ends up a pretty clunky method, but that's what the designers chose to go with. It's not as big a deal as people make it out to be.

Edited December 27, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[Ninjamestari]

Do you enjoy saying things that you know aren't true?

[MortyTheGobbo]

If that's your only comeback to my arguments, this discussion seems to be over. I'll let others decide which one of us carried themselves better in it.