SAWYERISM BETRAYED - Might turns back into Strength, Resolve will affect spell damage

[Sedrefilos]

From a role playing perspective, I actually really liked the idea of Might (Strength) affecting the damage a spell does while Intelligence affected the duration/range of a spell. It allowed the tired Wizard concept to branch out into a few different tropes it usually doesn't enjoy. See, in classic DnD you can only ever have the Bookworm Wizard who is supposed to be the smartest guy in the room as a result of the meta-game need for the wizard to be intelligent, and yet most of the time he employs the very simple solution of casting a fireball into the room. It always struck a bit of a discord with me that someone so intelligent had such a basic answer for every problem. 

 

It made sense to me that a character who was of a stronger build physically would be able to channel his spirit more forcefully into his magical abilities. A higher Might, Low Intelligence wizard suddenly makes sense both in how they are built and in how they are played. I imagine a strong wizard would approach most problems with an explosion of fire and lightning. Meanwhile the classical intelligent wizard is still plenty useful as he prefers to employ debuffs and crowd control spells, which are the kind of spells I would expect from someone who is thinking more strategically to employ. 

 

Strong Wizard played like it made sense. Intelligent Wizard played like it made sense. I really enjoyed it, and liked that Pillars was willing to take a step away from DnD's rigid establishment.

Πες τα άνθρωπέ μου!

This. Next level roleplay potency is about to be lost

Edited December 16, 2017 by Sedrefilos

[Ninjamestari]

 

From a role playing perspective, I actually really liked the idea of Might (Strength) affecting the damage a spell does while Intelligence affected the duration/range of a spell. It allowed the tired Wizard concept to branch out into a few different tropes it usually doesn't enjoy. See, in classic DnD you can only ever have the Bookworm Wizard who is supposed to be the smartest guy in the room as a result of the meta-game need for the wizard to be intelligent, and yet most of the time he employs the very simple solution of casting a fireball into the room. It always struck a bit of a discord with me that someone so intelligent had such a basic answer for every problem. 

 

It made sense to me that a character who was of a stronger build physically would be able to channel his spirit more forcefully into his magical abilities. A higher Might, Low Intelligence wizard suddenly makes sense both in how they are built and in how they are played. I imagine a strong wizard would approach most problems with an explosion of fire and lightning. Meanwhile the classical intelligent wizard is still plenty useful as he prefers to employ debuffs and crowd control spells, which are the kind of spells I would expect from someone who is thinking more strategically to employ. 

 

Strong Wizard played like it made sense. Intelligent Wizard played like it made sense. I really enjoyed it, and liked that Pillars was willing to take a step away from DnD's rigid establishment.

Πες τα άνθρωπέ μου!

This. Next level roleplay potency is about to be lost

 

 

I disagree with this emphatically! Too much freedom is detrimental to the fantasy, AND the game. Absolute freedom also means an absolute lack of personality and individuality. For any identity, knowing what something is not is even more important than knowing what that something actually is. The distinction between the classes in PoE1 is incredibly weak due to this, they don't really feel that different; in other words, the classes of PoE lack personality precisely because they lack limitations. More choice and more freedom is not always a good thing, in fact, after a certain point it becomes a decidedly bad thing. You need limitations to give a form to things, and I'm extremely happy that the silliness of the steroid-wizard is going to be a thing of the past. The steroid wizard really wasn't "next level roleplay", instead, it was degeneration of roleplay.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Ninjamestari

[Yosharian]

If Might made so much sense, explain how Might was constantly used to determine whether or not your character was strong enough to succeed at physical challenges in for example the black and white scenes, or conversations, or whatever?

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

Biggest problem I have with the change is how late it's coming in development.  Also, not sure Resolve is the best place to transfer spell damage to.

[Quillon]

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

Your wizard does self buffing so he/she isn't using pure physical power to lift tree trunks 

[Guest 4ward]

 

ability damage, aoe and duration could maybe be tied to empower and INT could instead regulate skills progress and ability/per encounter. So far to me INT is a wishy-washy stat, i don‘t find much incentive in putting additional points in it.

[JerekKruger]

If Might made so much sense, explain how Might was constantly used to determine whether or not your character was strong enough to succeed at physical challenges in for example the black and white scenes, or conversations, or whatever?

 

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

Biggest problem I have with the change is how late it's coming in development.  Also, not sure Resolve is the best place to transfer spell damage to.

 

That was indeed the flaw in the system. It has, apparently, been fixed in Deadfire.

 

I really hope they go back to Might and find a different solution for Resolve being a dump stat. Making Might a dump stat for caster classes isn't really a good solution.

[Sedrefilos]

If attributes don't affect roleplay anymore and the burden falls on skills, they can just dump attributes altogether for all I care. Just give points per level up to be spent individually to everything (melee damage, action speed, spell aoe, defences etc). Extra customization.

*shrug*

[Quillon]

Just remove Resolve, problem solved, everyone go home.

 

[Daled]

Lowering attributes to five or even four would be good in my opinion but at this point in development plus the infinity engine inspiration I'm afraid it won't happen even in a sequel.

 

Personally I'd really like for attributes to be something like "virtues", really vague and not physical at all and use only skills for checks (e.g. athletics for a strenght challenge).

[Ninjamestari]

Lowering attributes to five or even four would be good in my opinion but at this point in development plus the infinity engine inspiration I'm afraid it won't happen even in a sequel.

 

Personally I'd really like for attributes to be something like "virtues", really vague and not physical at all and use only skills for checks (e.g. athletics for a strenght challenge).

 

It's funny how different people can be. This is precisely what I don't want to see. I hate vague terminology that doesn't really mean anything just so everyone can pretend that their version is it. To me it utterly breaks the connection to the fantasy of the game. Having an indication of how strong and tough my character is physically is a fundamental aspect of the RPG experience; I want that strength score to actually mean something about my character and not just be some gamy mechanic that destroys the suspension of disbelief. I seriously hope that you're right in your assessment that this won't happen even in a sequel, I hope it never happens.

[Daled]

Completely understand your point and, to a degree, I agree with you 

I firmly believe that with this kind of design decisions there's no right and wrong, it's just a matter of knowing the positive and negative of your choice weigh them and decide which is the best one for the vision you have about the game (speaking from a designer point of view).

 

I suggested that because it would make the system more clear, separating gameplay (combat) from roleplay without asking the player to choose between the two beforehand, even before starting the game.

In the end you still have some degree of identity with skills, for example I suppose that a highly athletic character can lift a heavy object or perform an action physically demanding.

[Ninjamestari]

Completely understand your point and, to a degree, I agree with you 

I firmly believe that with this kind of design decisions there's no right and wrong, it's just a matter of knowing the positive and negative of your choice weigh them and decide which is the best one for the vision you have about the game (speaking from a designer point of view).

 

I suggested that because it would make the system more clear, separating gameplay (combat) from roleplay without asking the player to choose between the two beforehand, even before starting the game.

In the end you still have some degree of identity with skills, for example I suppose that a highly athletic character can lift a heavy object or perform an action physically demanding.

 

I think you're half correct; with design there's no strict 'right' but believe me there are a million ways to do it wrong. And one thing that is clearly wrong to me is precisely this separation between gameplay and roleplay, the magic of an RPG comes precisely from the interaction between the fantasy and the game mechanics. Think of how Blood works in Vampire the Masquerade; having to feed from game mechanic perspective reinforces the fantasy. Just imagine if it was some arbitrary "you gain blood every time you score a critical hit" or something else equally retarded. Or just think of a simple drain life spell: how much more powerfully does the  1 hit point drained = 1 hit point healed convey the fantasy of the ability than some abstracted "deal x damage, heal y health" where there's absolutely no relation between the two. It also gives a more concrete feeling to hitpoints as they begin to actually represent the character's life-force instead of being a purely mechanical gimmick.

 

The point being, while the "no right and wrong" sounds nice and good and inclusive and tolerant, it is a very dangerous attitude, because while it is difficult to find the "right" answers to design situations, it is incredibly easy to screw up completely and create something that is absolutely wrong. I'm not going to argue about the existence of the "right", because as you know that often depends on ones point of view, but the "wrong" definitely does exist in countless abominable forms.

[Yosharian]

Attributes are fun.  Maths is fun.  This is one of the core pillars of classic role-playing games like D&D.

 

Removing attributes may streamline and simplify the game, but it's at the expense of removing a core gameplay pillar.

[Yosharian]

 

If Might made so much sense, explain how Might was constantly used to determine whether or not your character was strong enough to succeed at physical challenges in for example the black and white scenes, or conversations, or whatever?

 

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

Biggest problem I have with the change is how late it's coming in development.  Also, not sure Resolve is the best place to transfer spell damage to.

 

That was indeed the flaw in the system. It has, apparently, been fixed in Deadfire.

 

I really hope they go back to Might and find a different solution for Resolve being a dump stat. Making Might a dump stat for caster classes isn't really a good solution.

 

 

What is so wrong with casters having a dump stat?  If strength affects weapon damage, including wands/rods/etc, then str dumpers are making a choice to never do good weapon damage.

[JerekKruger]

What is so wrong with casters having a dump stat?  If strength affects weapon damage, including wands/rods/etc, then str dumpers are making a choice to never do good weapon damage.

 

I don't like dump stats and I liked that PoE tried to make every stat useful to every class. This change is going away from that and that is a mistake in my view. It's also removing something unique and interesting about Pillars because some people don't like the idea of a strong Wizard (even though the strong aspect of Might is already being removed in dialogue checks).

Edited December 21, 2017 by JerekKruger

[Ninjamestari]

Preventing dump stats doesn't happen by making "every stat useful for everyone" in the way PoE did, you eliminate dump stats by having mechanics that punish incredibly low stats. Such as D&D, if your STR becomes low enough, you won't even be able to carry your own damn equipment. The idea that a scholar's ability to read and absorb information would somehow be tied to his muscle mass. Check out the original descriptions of D&D abilities, essentially if any of your abilities in it drops to zero, you become helpless. STR 0 means that you're too weak to move at all, DEX 0 means that you have absolutely no control over your movement, CON 0 means you're not even alive, INT 0 means you're essentially a vegetable, WIS 0 means that you cannot perceive anything and CHA 0 means that you cannot make a distinction between yourself and your surroundings. The idea behind D&D stats is precisely how a stat system in a good RPG should be thought of, it is the mathematical representation of your character's traits and abilites, not a separate game-mechanic. Also the D&D system is deeply rooted in reality, which is what gives it the immersive power it has.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Ninjamestari

[Ondb]

Oh my god. Afters years attributes will make sense again... 

 

[JerekKruger]

Preventing dump stats doesn't happen by making "every stat useful for everyone" in the way PoE did, you eliminate dump stats by having mechanics that punish incredibly low stats. 

 

By having every stat be useful for everyone you ensure that lowering them comes at a cost. As far as I can tell that achieves exactly what you describe.

 

Note that dump stats doesn't refer to the tendency for certain players to reduce stats down to their minimum, it refers to the situation where some stats provide no benefit to certain classes and hence can be reduced to minimum with no cost. I have no problem with the former, so long as there's a cost, only the latter.

 

The idea that a scholar's ability to read and absorb information would somehow be tied to his muscle mass.

 

I assume you meant to add "is ridiculous" but (a) Might is not muscle mass and (b) how much damage your spells do needn't have anything to do with your ability to read and absorb information.

 

The idea behind D&D stats is precisely how a stat system in a good RPG should be thought of, it is the mathematical representation of your character's traits and abilites, not a separate game-mechanic.

 

How is it not a separate game mechanic. Or equivalently, how are other stat systems separate game mechanics?

 

Also the D&D system is deeply rooted in reality, which is what gives it the immersive power it has.

 

D&D is immersive? News to me.

Edited December 21, 2017 by JerekKruger

[Katarack21]

If Might made so much sense, explain how Might was constantly used to determine whether or not your character was strong enough to succeed at physical challenges in for example the black and white scenes, or conversations, or whatever?

 

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

 

Whoever scripted the interactions, though, ****ed it up.

[Ondb]

 

If Might made so much sense, explain how Might was constantly used to determine whether or not your character was strong enough to succeed at physical challenges in for example the black and white scenes, or conversations, or whatever?

 

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

 

Whoever scripted the interactions, though, ****ed it up.

 

 

Ha ha. Lets assume you want to write scripted interaction with option of physical strong character doing something.

Please give me different attribute to use...

 

You can not. This is exactly what was wrong with that attribute in PoE.

[JerekKruger]

Ha ha. Lets assume you want to write scripted interaction with option of physical strong character doing something.

Please give me different attribute to use...

 

In Deadfire? Intimidate or Athletics (depending on whether it's physically intimidating someone or using your physical strength to move something heavy).

 

From what we've heard there are going to be very few attribute checks in Deadfire. Most have been replaced by skill checks.

[Lephys]

 

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

Your wizard does self buffing so he/she isn't using pure physical power to lift tree trunks 

 

 

But riddle me this, Batman: How much physical power was he using to lift tree trunks? You can reasonably say "I don't care how much, I just care what he's doing and not how he's doing it," but you can't reasonably tell anyone the answer to that question, because there isn't one. If this were a math problem on a test, the answer would be "Not enough information."

 

Might as well combine Intellect and Might into a single stat called Capability, then just say "Maybe the character is exerting enough power on the wall to destroy it in its current state, or maybe he's using elaborate scientific planning to dissolve the mortar between the bricks using his own concoction of acid by MacGuyvering readily available substances together... it doesn't matter, because he's getting past the obstacle, because he's capable!"

 

"What is he capable of, specifically?"

"... ACCOMPLISHING THINGS! GYAH! WHY DO PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND THIS STAT?!"

 

Now, if you'd excuse me, I'm going to go slay some dragons with my high Defeatery stat.

[CENIC]

 

 

If Might made so much sense, explain how Might was constantly used to determine whether or not your character was strong enough to succeed at physical challenges in for example the black and white scenes, or conversations, or whatever?

 

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

 

Whoever scripted the interactions, though, ****ed it up.

 

 

Ha ha. Lets assume you want to write scripted interaction with option of physical strong character doing something.

Please give me different attribute to use...

 

Easy. Athletics. That is LITERALLY what Athletics is.

[Quillon]

 

 

 

If Might made so much sense, explain how Might was constantly used to determine whether or not your character was strong enough to succeed at physical challenges in for example the black and white scenes, or conversations, or whatever?

 

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

 

Whoever scripted the interactions, though, ****ed it up.

 

 

Ha ha. Lets assume you want to write scripted interaction with option of physical strong character doing something.

Please give me different attribute to use...

 

Easy. Athletics. That is LITERALLY what Athletics is.

 

 

Athletics' been used for situations that'd require agility rather than strength and prolly rightfully so; a fat person is not athletic but can be strong.

[dragubaba]

 

 

 

If Might made so much sense, explain how Might was constantly used to determine whether or not your character was strong enough to succeed at physical challenges in for example the black and white scenes, or conversations, or whatever?

 

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

 

Whoever scripted the interactions, though, ****ed it up.

 

 

Ha ha. Lets assume you want to write scripted interaction with option of physical strong character doing something.

Please give me different attribute to use...

 

Easy. Athletics. That is LITERALLY what Athletics is.

 

Not really, no. Athleticism has more of a cardio component to it. It means you are good at sports. You are fast and agile. Very strong people are often neither but strongmen and power lifters can flip small cars. They just don't do it very fast. Olympic lifters are an exception to the rule with their explosive type of strenght.