Some simple math about why Helwalker/Berserker rocks, and rogue sucks

[dunehunter]

To compare each class's capacity of doing damage, we need to take Damage, Attack speed, Penetration and some special factor into account.

 

The rough damage calculation format is sometime like Total Damage = Basic Damage * Might * Lash, let's what each class has bonus on:

 

 

We can see Monk/Berserker almost filled every the blank here, they can get attack speed bonus, a lot damage multipliers, good penetration, AOEs.

 

However, rogue has only sneak attack. The only good rogue build is based on Backstab currently because they really cannot match other striker classes face to face. They can't attack fast, they can't penetrate heavy armour, they don't have aoe at all.

 

I'd suggest to give rogue at least some attack speed and penetration bonus to make them fit their role better. And imo Monk/Berserker is too good now.

Edited November 28, 2017 by dunehunter

[IndiraLightfoot]

I love your thread, dunehunter, but can you please make the thread title more Rogue-y, since we haven't got any Rogue thread in our COMPILATION THREAD!

[theBalthazar]

And paladin ?

 

+ Sworn rival (15 accuracy + 20 % damage) Now almost instantaneus ! (In POE1 I claimed it, again and again : very good decision of Obsidian).

+ Eternal devotion (+20 accuracy fire damage 50 % + 25 % bleak walkers + buff on 15 seconds 25 % fire damage, all this for 1 pt of zeal)

 

Sworn rival is refund if you kill the rival.

 

I try it, not bad at all... It is less no-brainer than Devoted/Berserker/helwalker but very interresting (more than POE1, for me).

Edited November 28, 2017 by theBalthazar

[KDubya]

I agree on the Paladin power. They have great defense, healing, auras and the upgraded sworn enemy adds +40% damage. +15 accuracy and gets one of the two zeal points back when killed (should be both).

 

Combine Paladin with any of the ones on your list and you get a better guy.

 

They are quickly becoming my go to class to use as a base. A team of five paladin/somethings will facestomp PotD

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Yeah, I think your case would be stronger if you compared rogues vs other classes and not just vs. picked subclasses.

 

Still good points. What are the sources for those various abilities? I assume for the cipher 40% you're counting Soul Whip? (technically it's a lash effect).

[Aramintai]

Yes, thanks for this clear info  I hope devs rework all the classes and return rogue class his proper high tier dps-er role without multiclassing.

[theBalthazar]

In this brutal meta-game,

 

A single class rogue can easily take +75 % on sneak attack VS 50 % for multiclass.

[Boeroer]

I assume for the cipher 40% you're counting Soul Whip? (technically it's a lash effect).

Since when? In PoE it was an additive bonus to base damage, not a lash. Has that changed? Because when I used an Assassin/Soulblade I saw no sign of that. Just huge numbers on hit/crit without lash damage except when I use Soul Annihilation which seems to work like a raw lash of some sorts.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Boeroer

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Sorry I misspoke -- in *lore*, soul whip is a weapon lash.  I wasn't thinking about the actual formula, should have been.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Boeroer]

Ah, ok. Right.

[Climhazzard]

Ravager will be fun since they'll have so many crit effects, Berserker has a high crit conversion, and clarity of mind cures the downside to Berserker.  Blood Frenzy, interrupting strikes, swift flurry, and enervating blows.

 

I'm still leaning more towards Devoted for my monk multi class though.  Primarily due to disciplined strikes.  The main reason for this is that if you miss the main target with Torment's reach it doesn't do it's aoe at all, it will if you graze though.  The miss>graze conversion (once fixed) will give you a lot of CC potential with raised torment.  Most likely I would use shattered pillar so I could keep gaining wounds even if my targets were stunned, and I would have a healthy dose of intelligence for larger/longer CC potential, not to mention AoE damage with torment and rooting pain.

 

Stat spread probably with a lot of 15s.  15-9-15-15-15-9  Or perhaps with base perception because of disciplined strikes...

 

Side note:  Tenacious blows+Devoted may lead to a lot of overpenetration damage.

 

Side side note:  Don't knock rogues to much, since confounding blind will be a great boss killer as long as perception afflictions will work.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Climhazzard

[dunehunter]

And paladin ?

 

+ Sworn rival (15 accuracy + 20 % damage) Now almost instantaneus ! (In POE1 I claimed it, again and again : very good decision of Obsidian).

+ Eternal devotion (+20 accuracy fire damage 50 % + 25 % bleak walkers + buff on 15 seconds 25 % fire damage, all this for 1 pt of zeal)

 

Sworn rival is refund if you kill the rival.

 

I try it, not bad at all... It is less no-brainer than Devoted/Berserker/helwalker but very interresting (more than POE1, for me).

 

Yeah I agree Paladin is pretty strong in POE 2, sorry I forget to put it in the xml file because at beginning I was thinking about all striker!

 

But Paladin has some awesome starting abilities for sure. Bleak Walker synergy really good with Rogue, put a dagger in your mainhand and sabre in offhand. Enjoy the Sicken affliction from the dagger, and an incoming deadly Sneak Attack + FoD

Edited November 28, 2017 by dunehunter

[molotov.]

In PoE 1 rogues, at least for me, worked really well as a secondary tank, their criticals and raw damage over time were big enough that I could invest little on the Might attribute and still do excellent damage, I can still remember Devil of Caroc destroying 5 enemies on that elevator ambush on White March part 2 and receiving little damage.

Just try out a build with Riposte and you will see their true capabilities.

But hey I agree, the damage dealer rogue is horrendous, it seems like Obisidian can't find a place for rogues in this game.

[dunehunter]

In PoE 1 rogues, at least for me, worked really well as a secondary tank, their criticals and raw damage over time were big enough that I could invest little on the Might attribute and still do excellent damage, I can still remember Devil of Caroc destroying 5 enemies on that elevator ambush on White March part 2 and receiving little damage.

 

Just try out a build with Riposte and you will see their true capabilities.

 

But hey I agree, the damage dealer rogue is horrendous, it seems like Obisidian can't find a place for rogues in this game.

 

Hey molotov thx for reply, I'm just talking about single class here, yeah I'm pretty sure a multiclass rogue can use riposte at its full potential and can be a strong combo.

[SaruNi]

To compare each class's capacity of doing damage, we need to take Damage, Attack speed, Penetration and some special factor into account.

 

The rough damage calculation format is sometime like Total Damage = Basic Damage * Might * Lash, let's what each class has bonus on:

 

 

We can see Monk/Berserker almost filled every the blank here, they can get attack speed bonus, a lot damage multipliers, good penetration, AOEs.

 

However, rogue has only sneak attack. The only good rogue build is based on Backstab currently because they really cannot match other striker classes face to face. They can't attack fast, they can't penetrate heavy armour, they don't have aoe at all.

 

I'd suggest to give rogue at least some attack speed and penetration bonus to make them fit their role better. And imo Monk/Berserker is too good now.

 

You're not counting the bonus raw DoT from Deep Wounds, not to mention the damage bonus of upgraded Finishing Blow and the raw DoT from Strike the Bell (and Arterial Strike, and Gouging Strike). *And* four uses of backstab (1 from stealth + 3 shadowing beyonds). With raw DoT they don't need to penetrate heavy armor (and of course the traditional stiletto and rapier have +penetration modals). 

 

Streetfighter easily gets bonus sneak attack damage, and Assassin obviously has the backstab bonus... and then you also have to factor in the crit bonuses (and, as has been mentioned, riposte...). 

Edited November 28, 2017 by SaruNi

[dunehunter]

 

You're not counting the bonus raw DoT from Deep Wounds, not to mention the damage bonus of upgraded Finishing Blow and the raw DoT from Strike the Bell (and Arterial Strike, and Gouging Strike). *And* four uses of backstab (1 from stealth + 3 shadowing beyonds). With raw DoT they don't need to penetrate heavy armor (and of course the traditional stiletto and rapier have +penetration modals). 

 

Streetfighter easily gets bonus sneak attack damage, and Assassin obviously has the backstab bonus... and then you also have to factor in the crit bonuses (and, as has been mentioned, riposte...). 

 

 

Yeah Rogues have some single target abilities, Finishing Blow is a +50% basic damage for one full attack. That doesn't change they lack Attack Speed, and the other two Damage Multpliers, and I doubt this 3 Guile cost ability will make any difference(I'd rather use Guile for Shadowing Beyond). Comparing with Barbaric blow, it's a 2 Rage ability and is Refundable if u upgrade it, doing +100% critical damage(if my memory serves) and large range carnage.

 

Talking about DoT, that might be useful in Boss fight, I didn't do any test on DoT builds but a build focus on DoT might work. But Imo DoT builds is better on tanks who cannot do a lot spike damages.

 

And I wanna mention again that Riposte only works with builds that have high deflection, and I'm only talk about single class here, u really need to multiclass to make riposte work.

Edited November 28, 2017 by dunehunter

[SaruNi]

 

 

You're not counting the bonus raw DoT from Deep Wounds, not to mention the damage bonus of upgraded Finishing Blow and the raw DoT from Strike the Bell (and Arterial Strike, and Gouging Strike). *And* four uses of backstab (1 from stealth + 3 shadowing beyonds). With raw DoT they don't need to penetrate heavy armor (and of course the traditional stiletto and rapier have +penetration modals). 

 

Streetfighter easily gets bonus sneak attack damage, and Assassin obviously has the backstab bonus... and then you also have to factor in the crit bonuses (and, as has been mentioned, riposte...). 

 

 

Yeah Rogues have some single target abilities, Finishing Blow is a +50% basic damage for one full attack. That doesn't change they lack Attack Speed, and the other two Damage Multpliers, and I doubt this 3 Guile cost ability will make any difference.

 

Talking about DoT, that might be useful in Boss fight, I didn't do any test on DoT builds but a build focus on DoT might work.

 

In the last, I wanna say again, riposte only works with builds that have high deflection, and I'm only talk about single class here, u really need to multiclass to make riposte work.

 

 

Trickster gets high deflection from Mirror Image (which only costs one guile point, so can be cast 7 times iirc). A large shield and tank build will also do... and those DoT apply to riposte too.

 

Rogue does have AoE disables (Smoke Bomb, and one of the possible upgrades to Finishing Blow... as well as Trickster's Dazzling Lights and Confusion), and perhaps more importantly the single target strike abilities can be made AoE using Blunderbuss's powder burns (which also gives Streetfighter the bonus from being "flanked" at range) or the Rod modal.

Edited November 28, 2017 by SaruNi

[dunehunter]

 

Trickster gets high deflection from Mirror Image (which only costs one guile point, so can be cast 7 times iirc). A large shield and tank build will also do... and those DoT apply to riposte too.

 

Rogue does have AoE disables (Smoke Bomb, and one of the possible upgrades to Finishing Blow... as well as Trickster's Dazzling Lights and Confusion), and perhaps more importantly the single target strike abilities can be made AoE using Blunderbuss's powder burns (which also gives Streetfighter the bonus from being "flanked" at range) or the Rod modal.

 

 

Trickers has only 20% sneak attack bonus, that almost kills the only basic damage bonus they have. So u give rogue a large shield and make him a tank, that's doable, but they still...not good strikers.

[SaruNi]

 

 

Trickster gets high deflection from Mirror Image (which only costs one guile point, so can be cast 7 times iirc). A large shield and tank build will also do... and those DoT apply to riposte too.

 

Rogue does have AoE disables (Smoke Bomb, and one of the possible upgrades to Finishing Blow... as well as Trickster's Dazzling Lights and Confusion), and perhaps more importantly the single target strike abilities can be made AoE using Blunderbuss's powder burns (which also gives Streetfighter the bonus from being "flanked" at range) or the Rod modal.

 

 

Trickers has only 20% sneak attack bonus, that almost kills the only basic damage bonus they have. So u give rogue a large shield and make him a tank, that's doable, but they still...not good strikers.

 

 

But if you get extremely high deflection from Mirror Image you can riposte with a greatsword. Alternately you could have a streetfighter with a shield---will get hit more and needs support but has great damage potential when flanked and bloodied and using Deep Wounds.

 

Rogues are also the only class with extra quick-use item slots, which means they can have more grenades, scrolls (scrolls currently all have 1.4 second casting time iirc, even if the corresponding spells take 6 seconds to cast), and potions. 2 extra quick-use slots = 10 extra grenades or scrolls.