Resolve! Huh, What is it good for?

[dunehunter]

 

Spiritshift weapons in PoE had 5 DR bypass, it's estoc level of bypass. Don't Spiritshift weapons have estoc's penetration in PoE2?

 

 

Not 5 anymore (was high for old metagame)

Now it is 7 (base)+1 (claws) (Except if that increase with power level ? But no difference between single class and multiclass for now) 

 

To complete, there is a good combination with penetration + Accuracy. So Barbarian or Fighter. But this one will be Single class. To test his viability.

 

 

Of course it depends on your power level, a single class shifter or monk will always hit harder with their natural weapon/fist than multilclass shifter or monks.

Edited November 29, 2017 by dunehunter

[mpking52@gmail.com]

I love the change and am excited to try it out. 

[Azmodiuz]

Absolutely nothing!

 

 

Seriously what is the point of the Resolve stat now? Before when it included Concentration you'd worry about dumping it and getting interrupted all the time but that is now a separate ability granted by some spells.

 

As most every class benefits from Intellect it is quite easy to drop 1:1 and keep the same Will defense while gaining a large boost to duration and area. Adjusting by five points has a piddly effect of -5 deflection.

 

Sure for roleplaying reasons you might not want everyone to be Timid but from a power gamer's view it looks to be the go to strat.

Yeah I believe making Resolve the main stats for casters much more important then MIGHT/STRENGTH.

 

I like the concentration idea and I like the idea of maybe critical hit scoring as well being added.

 

But it would be nice if every stat actually did certain things when they were higher then 15. Like in older classic dnd if your strength was lower then 15 you didn't get pluses to damage or attack, just more weight lift and chances to bash things open etc... and some stats you didn't have 100% chance to learn a spell or did not get bonus spells.

 

From this system, they have this completely removed. 

 

Maybe by bringing it back to some degree like small boosts for actually using the stats.

[Ascaloth]

An idea for Ciphers; what if the way Soul Whip worked was changed altogether? Remove the weapon damage component from it, and simply have it give a set amount of Focus for every successful hit, regardless of the damage dealt with each hit. Maybe a greater amount of Focus for successful crits, even.

 

This would make PER and DEX the primary stats that Ciphers would want to max (which is already more or less the case), and lets them safely dump STR altogether. It doesn't matter if the bog-standard Cipher hits with nerf fists at this point, because they now behave more like tasers than anything; the bite from the leads may only sting a little, but the impending electric shock is going to damn well hurt like a bitch. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Ascaloth

[KDubya]

An idea for Ciphers; what if the way Soul Whip worked was changed altogether? Remove the weapon damage component from it, and simply have it give a set amount of Focus for every successful hit, regardless of the damage dealt with each hit. Maybe a greater amount of Focus for successful crits, even.

 

This would make PER and DEX the primary stats that Ciphers would want to max (which is already more or less the case), and lets them safely dump STR altogether. It doesn't matter if the bog-standard Cipher hits with nerf fists at this point, because they now behave more like tasers than anything; the bite from the leads may only sting a little, but the impending electric shock is going to damn well hurt like a bitch. 

 

Then you fall back into the Blunderbuss being the default Cipher weapon dilemma that PoE had during a few patch cycles.

[Ganrich]

 

An idea for Ciphers; what if the way Soul Whip worked was changed altogether? Remove the weapon damage component from it, and simply have it give a set amount of Focus for every successful hit, regardless of the damage dealt with each hit. Maybe a greater amount of Focus for successful crits, even.

 

This would make PER and DEX the primary stats that Ciphers would want to max (which is already more or less the case), and lets them safely dump STR altogether. It doesn't matter if the bog-standard Cipher hits with nerf fists at this point, because they now behave more like tasers than anything; the bite from the leads may only sting a little, but the impending electric shock is going to damn well hurt like a bitch.

Then you fall back into the Blunderbuss being the default Cipher weapon dilemma that PoE had during a few patch cycles.

Adding a stipulation such as "can only occur once every .5 seconds" would stop that.

[Boeroer]

Still a bad solution because it would greatly favor light, fast weapons that are dual wielded.

[Ascaloth]

Still a bad solution because it would greatly favor light, fast weapons that are dual wielded.

 

I mean, IMO that's still a better problem to have than leaving Ciphers without a stat they can safely dump. Besides, it can also serve as a good callback to the Glanfathan origins of Ciphers in the lore. *shrug*

[Boeroer]

I don't think so. Giving flat bonuses in an otherwise percentage based system always leads to exploits that then have to be patched.

 

For me it's ok if there is no dump stat. Barbarians had no no-brainer dump stats in PoE, same with paladins. Sadly OBS took away the concentration from RES and now it became a dump stat. Why does there have to be? Actually that's the ideal situation in my book: to not have clear dump stats for a class. Every stat should be importat in general for every class.

 

Only problem is when it affects some classes a lot while others can still savely dump stats without disadvantages. Here it hits the cipher. But I guess it's easy to give him a slight buff then (why not a passive ability that lets Soul Whip steal 2 or 3 MIG on hit from enemies for example? Would solve all cipher problems I guess).

Edited November 30, 2017 by Boeroer

[KDubya]

Another possible solution for Cipher, other than the obvious "don't change the current Might" would be to greatly increase the focus gain from Draining Whip.

 

You take Biting Whip to hit harder and incidentally gain more focus. You take Draining Whip to gain more focus.

 

In the current system more Might = more damage = more focus > cast damaging spell which is magnified by Might.

 

New system more Might  = more damage = more focus > cast damaging spell which is magnified by your average Resolve ​ > cast debuff which is increased by your above average Intellect. People who want damage primarily from weapons can go this route, probably most multi-class.

 

Proposed new Draining Whip >>>>> average Might = average damage > Draining Whip = more focus >damaging spell which is magnified by your maxed Resolve, or go with a debuff as above. People who want to do damage mainly via cipher powers can go this route.

 

Or keep Might and Resolve balanced and do either just not as good as a specialist.

[JerekKruger]

Every stat should be importat in general for every class.

 

Which is, surely, why the change to Might and Resolve is bad. In general Strength is useless to pure spellcasters. Other than hurting their Fortitude Defence there's no downside to dumping it to 3 (or going Orlan and dumping it to 2) and if they do want Fortitude they're better off taking Constitution, which actually gets them some marginal benefit.

 

I'm now fairly convinced that the best solution is to make Resolve govern +Healing and Might +Damage. People complain that Priests don't take Resolve, now they might; tanky Paladins and Fighters get the Deflection from Resolve but also bonus healing for Lay on Hands and Constant Recovery respectively; there's no problem to solve for Ciphers and other hybrid damage dealers. Resolve even becomes marginally more appealing for non-healer classes since as well raising Deflection as before it improves the healing from Athletics if they take it (at the very least you'll probably not want to dump Resolve all the way).

 

I'm sure there's some negatives to this change, but I haven't been able to spot them yet.

[theBalthazar]

I'm now fairly convinced that the best solution is to make Resolve govern +Healing and Might +Damage.

 

 

Like that ? :

 

Attribute Distribution 1.2 (According to the old system)

 

Might : 3 % damage / 2 fortitude defense

[Physical and Magical oriented]

 

Constitution : +5% health / 2 fortitude defense / +1 deflection

[Defense oriented]

 

Dexterity : 3% action speed / +1 accuracy / 2 reflex defense

[Nimbleness oriented]

 

Perception : +1 accuracy / 2 reflex defense / +1 deflection

[Perception of distances]

 

Intelligence : 5% affliction duration / 5% area of effect / 2 willpower defense

[Amplitude oriented]

 

Resolve : 5% reducing the time of afflictions / 5 % heal and buff duration / 2 willpower defense

[buff, determination oriented]

 

-------------------

 

Interresting in resolve for 2 reasons : spe priest (buff etc.), AND priest is this last protector of the team. He gets out of afflictions before others !... For me the idea of JerekKruger is excellent. Hit with a Cipher is not anymore a problem now : you hit via might. Same for Druid. Priest are rarely damage dealer. If not, it is now only a multiclass problem (I want to buff and damage deal in a Berserker+Priest for exemple. Ok but you pay the price, it is ok). So it is an improvement. At worse you merge again the two forms of duration = problem solved.

Perception : back to the sources ^^ With deflection (now more logical) + A second slot in constitution. Why not, the defense aspect etc. In POE1 v1.0 there was a second bonus (perception+resolve). And for parralelize : dexterity take the second point in accuracy.

Edited November 30, 2017 by theBalthazar

[JerekKruger]

Like that ? :

 

I'm naturally conservative when it comes to changing too many things, so I'd leave Deflection with Resolve and not add the Affliction Reduction time off Resolve for now. See how moving +Healing feels then perhaps change more. Also I wouldn't add +Accuracy to Dexterity at all: Dexterity's already a pretty good attribute and having two sources of +Accuracy doesn't seem necessary.

 

That said yeah, more like that.

 

By the way, I should correct my statement to "I'm fairly convinced that the best solution I've seen is to make Resolve govern +Healing and Might +Damage." There may be better solutions I haven't seen. I think the Affliction reduction is a very nice idea too, but I prefer a simpler solution if possible.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Still a bad solution because it would greatly favor light, fast weapons that are dual wielded.

 

 

Plus, some people might want to make ciphers that used a blunderbuss, so you don't want to explicitly disfavor any weapon either.

 

 

Only problem is when it affects some classes a lot while others can still savely dump stats without disadvantages. Here it hits the cipher. But I guess it's easy to give him a slight buff then (why not a passive ability that lets Soul Whip steal 2 or 3 MIG on hit from enemies for example? Would solve all cipher problems I guess).

 

I've made this point elsewhere so apologies if I'm repeating, but mechanically, any bonus you give to ciphers to "balance this out" -- extra damage, etc. -- can be reduced to the equivalent of X number of stat points (i.e., an additional 20% damage boost = 7 additional might). And then you run into a problem with multiclass characters, who can rely on their other class for powers and abilities and just use the Cipher for the bonus. It's therefore really hard to give anything additional to ciphers without making multiclass ciphers overpowered (for an example look at the current Assassin/Soul Blade build). 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm now fairly convinced that the best solution is to make Resolve govern +Healing and Might +Damage. People complain that Priests don't take Resolve, now they might; tanky Paladins and Fighters get the Deflection from Resolve but also bonus healing for Lay on Hands and Constant Recovery respectively; there's no problem to solve for Ciphers and other hybrid damage dealers. Resolve even becomes marginally more appealing for non-healer classes since as well raising Deflection as before it improves the healing from Athletics if they take it (at the very least you'll probably not want to dump Resolve all the way).

 

I'm sure there's some negatives to this change, but I haven't been able to spot them yet.

 

 

The main downside is that it then forces Priests to split their stats between offense and healing. Relative to the current setup it's a priest nerf. Maybe a tolerable one, I dunno, I'd let people who play priests speak to that.

 

 

Another possible solution for Cipher, other than the obvious "don't change the current Might" would be to greatly increase the focus gain from Draining Whip.

 

 

 

I think raising the base focus gain rate from Soul Whip is probably a good idea regardless of the stat change issue -- it's currently at 25% instead of the first game's 35% -- but remember that in the current game you can't take both biting and draining whip, you have to pick one. 

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

By the way, I should correct my statement to "I'm fairly convinced that the best solution I've seen is to make Resolve govern +Healing and Might +Damage." There may be better solutions I haven't seen. I think the Affliction reduction is a very nice idea too, but I prefer a simpler solution if possible.

 

 

I'm holding out hope that they can make a concentration - based change work. Even that won't really solve the "Ciphers need a dump stat, everyone else gets one" issue, though, because if Resolve is suddenly useful, you can't dump it.  But at least it would preserve the elegance of the Might system. 

[JerekKruger]

The main downside is that it then forces Priests to split their stats between offense and healing. Relative to the current setup it's a priest nerf. Maybe a tolerable one, I dunno, I'd let people who play priests speak to that.

 

This is true. That said, anything that makes Resolve useful to a class will be a nerf to that class as they'll have to choose whether to invest points into it.

 

I'm holding out hope that they can make a concentration - based change work. Even that won't really solve the "Ciphers need a dump stat, everyone else gets one" issue, though, because if Resolve is suddenly useful, you can't dump it.  But at least it would preserve the elegance of the Might system.

 

I'm not a fan of the new Concentration mechanic but perhaps it'll grow on me.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Idea:

 

First, they make resolve useful

 

Then, they give everyone five more points in character creation

[tinysalamander]

The main downside is that it then forces Priests to split their stats between offense and healing. Relative to the current setup it's a priest nerf. Maybe a tolerable one, I dunno, I'd let people who play priests speak to that.

Works for me, personally. Although I generally play PoE priest support first, damage is more or less a bonus.

 

And it won’t cause splitting if Res affects healing received instead, but then everyone else might want it (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, IMO).

[theBalthazar]

he main downside is that it then forces Priests to split their stats between offense and healing. Relative to the current setup it's a priest nerf. Maybe a tolerable one, I dunno, I'd let people who play priests speak to that.

 

 

EDIT : =  tinysalamander +1

 

There is a downside, but this is less problematic. At worse, this encourage to take a single class priest, resolve oriented (a little more).

 

Fighters have problem yes, but like actual system. (Health recovery = resolve) No change.

 

Paladin are touched with healing like actual system. No change. But it is a choice if you take Lay on hand healing. (and you build arround)

 

Cipher and druid can use all their concepts at 100 %. Except heal for druid but it is a choice each level !^^.... (When you don't chose spiritshift or focus with soul whip (Already here = core abilities), Big and Main difference...)

 

 

Then, they give everyone five more points in character creation 

 

 

Don't repair the situation. Others classes have always an advance... So : p

 

1) You create a new thing with resolve like around empower concept etc. (my first propositions) This is new : nothing is touched.

Or

2) You Unraveled actual concept and you move them. This action create "counterpart" or "downside".

Edited November 30, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Alternate idea:

 

Have each point of resolve above / below 10 give +/- 3% incoming Crit to Hit conversion

 

i.e., someone with 18 Resolve would reduce 24% of incoming crits to hits; someone with 3 resolve would increase 24% of incoming Hits to Crits

 

Then you tie critical hits into the concentration / interrupt system somehow. 

[theBalthazar]

Not bad but resolve become not universal.

 

Crits to hits, even at 24 % is not crazy.

 

And the negative counterpart is violent : p 

 

It become a dump stat to especially not dump : p So encourage people to stay at ...10 ?

 

Very similar to Constitution with this system. And Con + Resolve dump = very fragile person, too fragile ? I don't know.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Not bad but resolve become not universal.

 

Crits to hits, even at 24 % is not crazy.

 

And the negative counterpart is violent : p 

 

It become a dump stat to especially not dump : p So encourage people to stay at ...10 ?

 

Very similar to Constitution with this system. And Con + Resolve dump = very fragile person, too fragile ? I don't know.

 

Yeah, you could probably crunch the numbers and figure out exactly how much damage mitigation / extra damage this maths out to and how each point in Resolve would compare to a point of Constitution etc. But it's different enough to not be a 1:1 parallel (it'd be a bigger deal against monsters with on-crit effects, for example).  And non-tanks could probably afford to shave a few points, but like Con, you wouldn't want to dump it to 3 or you'd get obliterated.  

 

Keep in mind that crits give penetration currently, so tanks in heavy armor get a big benefit from crit to hit conversion; it keeps enemies from critting through their armor.

 

Anyway I'm just spitballing here. This particular idea wouldn't solve any problem except the "Make Resolve Important" problem. You'd still have all the other problems hybrid builds suddenly face when Resolve is important.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[takamorisan]

The spreading of Healing from might will hurt Hybrid classes.

Edited November 30, 2017 by takamorisan

[JerekKruger]

The spreading of of Healing from might will hurt Hybrid classes.

 

If you mean make it harder to excel at both healing and damage dealing then yes, but I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing. 

[takamorisan]

Not exactly being an excel, more like having a support character so you can adapt the group strategy. Used my paladin offensively on PoE1 and late game the character could heal one of the several waves of upcoming damage, helping to buy time for the priest to apply buffs. Just an example.