Your Tiers List [Base Classes, Subclasses]

[Boeroer]

I agree that it was the least useful class from the mid to late game. Besides picking locks, disarming traps and skipping fights with invisibility when soloing...

 

But whatever - it suffers from frontloading. The Deadfire passives for rogue are pretty uninspired as well. But I have hopes that this times high level abilities of rogues will be better. Smoke Cloud is already a ton better than in PoE.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Boeroer

[MadDemiurg]

I mean, solo rogue still had to beat Thaos and his 2 buddies. So it's not just skipping. I'm pretty sure it was a much harder fight for quite a few classes like fighter, barb, druid. I actually don't even remember any fighter or barb (post OSA fix) solos, although I'm not saying it wasn't done. But if it was, it was pretty rare.

 

And it's still one of the highest dps classes PoE1 so idk what's this all about.

Edited April 5, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Boeroer]

I did a barb ultimate run (only minimal kiting or split-pulling after early game) and it went pretty well until I died of a stupid bug with Battle Forged + Second Wind (killing myself with 100 retaliation burn damage instead of healing myself...). I was fighting pathetic pale elves in Noonfrost and had already killed Alpine and Adra Dragon. That was kinda sad...

 

Thaos is pretty easy in my book. It's the later WMII bounties that are so hard for me with a rogue (and fighter, too). No problem with Priest/Chanter/Wizard/Druid and whatnot.

 

It's about the rogue being the least useful class in PoE on PotD. You can have another opinion of course, but this is mine. Look at the druid in PoE: better single target melee dps than most rogues in the late game due to Avenging Storm while shifted and awesomest CC and AoE damage with spells. He doesn't even need the high ACC of rogues because most enemies just stand there stunned, sometimes even petrified. I would like the rogue to be better in PoE - but for me he's not. Only against disabled bosses, but that's not enough for me.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Boeroer

[MadDemiurg]

High acc is always great in PoE1, especially with scroll use. I'm pretty sure there's no fight that's not solvable by throwing around some high acc scrolls. And no, druid won't match optimized rogue's single target dps, avenging storm or not, although he's obviously better at aoe. And avenging storm is like what, lvl 15? Game is basically over by then. But yes, rogues got a bit shafted in terms of lategame abilities in WM. Also, druid has acc problems compared to other casters and most of his good spells are vs fortitude which is the highest save for most enemies.

 

So idk, in my experience druid is a weaker solo class than rogue. In a party, he's a better aoe dps class but inferior for single target. Which sounds pretty balanced to me.

 

Imo rogues weren't top tier like palas or wizards in PoE1, but the worst class? ehhhh...

Edited April 5, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[dunehunter]

I remember there was an old thread discussing who, ranger or rogue does more damage in late game. Although Boeroer and other players lists a lot data to proof that ranger is better, some still won't believe

[MadDemiurg]

Tbh I don't even know if rogue or ranger would do more dmg lategame in WM (and are we talking ranged vs ranged cause then ranger surely wins, but I wouldn't be so sure vs melee). Depends on equipment etc. Also one of the stronger lategame rogue approaches focused on on crit effects e.g. on crit prone to stunlock any target.

 

So what if ranger ends up doing bit more damage in the lategame? They're both dps classes. And rogue definitely does more dmg earlygame. Does that automatically make rogue terrible and not worth taking?

Edited April 5, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[theBalthazar]

Twin arrow + Stormcaller was pretty cool. ...With a great pet which could do easily 80 pts of damage...

 

Pet was the best tank in POE1.

Edited April 5, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

Nobody said terrible and not worth taking. Only the least effective class overall. Doesn't mean that he's useless. The classes in PoE are quite balanced in PoE now.
 

And no, druid won't match optimized rogue's single target dps, avenging storm or not, although he's obviously better at aoe.

I argued the same until sombody urged me to try two melee builds - one druid, one dw rogue with a good endgame melee setup (in this case dual fully enchanted Rimecutters). The druid did so much more damage with his enormous lashes (Wildstrike Shock 48%: (30% + 10% from belt) * 1.2 from Heart of the Storm, Greater Wildstrike Shock: 30%: (15% + 10%)*1.2) and with Avenging Storm (25 base damage * 1.2 with every hit, crits on top, stunning afflition on hit) and 41 base damage of claws/tusks/... with +20 ACC. Also here: crits/dmg mods on top. Not to mention that Avenging Storm also retaliates with the same damage. No afflictions needed - this comes with every hit. Sure, it's lateish game, but that's what we complain about mostly when we are complaining about the rogue.

 

A melee rogue can't compete with a dedicated melee druid (in a party). And that's a shame. He should be the undoubted no. 1 single target damage dealer also in the late game due to his drawbacks - like his squishyness and his total lack of AoE capabilites. As dunehunter said, there was a discussion (it was stated that a rogue "will severley outdamage a ranger !!1!11") with the outcome that even the ranger with a hunting bow can compete with the damage of a late game rogue (not even looking at Driving Flight and the fact that the ranger loses no dps with moving around).

 

The rogue is really nice in the early game because of Sneak Attack and high ACC - but falls off the wagon later on if we leave scrolls aside which most people don't use with a full party. He's awesome with scrolls, right - I made a dedicated build for that (and for spell binding use as well) - but that's quite gimmicky and niche and I don't think that was the main idea of the designers when they invented the PoE rogue.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Boeroer

[MadDemiurg]

First of all, endgame effectiveness is like 10% of the game at best.

 

I don't understand the obsession on most of the RPG forums with being bit more effective lategame, especially when you have to cripple yourself for 80% of the game to reach that. Pure masochism.

 

Yeah, WM rogue talents sucked, so lategame power level was a bit ???. They could've been better. Earlygame rogue power level is very good if not amazing though. And that's what this discussion started with. In PoE2 we have rogues level 1-9 and sneak attack is as good as ever. Hell, with street fighter it's outright insane. We don't know what each class will get at high level so it's pointless to discuss.

 

I'm not gonna bother doing the number crunching vs druid atm cause I don't see a point and I don't remember all numbers. Let's even say you're right although I wouldn't be so sure. And if we're talking "in a party" you can also buff the rogue through the roof with lashes and whatnot, which has better returns due to higher base accuracy etc.

 

There are recorded ultimate rogue runs, so rogue can beat every single fight in the game. Solo. I haven't seen any with rangers btw (not saying that there aren't but they surely aren't as popular). I'm not sure what more would you want from a class.

 

Speaking of ranger pet, it surely is a nice source of extra dps and some tankiness in a party, but in my experience it was actually a nuisance to keep alive in many fights when I tried ranger solo (and bonded grief sucks). And the best tank in the game? Sorry, it doesn't have the def for that. Not when you have a paladin effectively 100% immune to CC and damage.

Edited April 5, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[theBalthazar]

Ranger + Barbarian in early are far better than rogue. In POE1.

Edited April 5, 2018 by theBalthazar

[MadDemiurg]

Well, that's your opinion.

 

The track record of solo runs and the "damage done" number in my parties (when I still played with a party) seems to disagree.

Edited April 5, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[JerekKruger]

... the "damage done" number in my parties (when I still played with a party) seems to disagree.

 

Those are inaccurate. They don't track DoTs, damage done by pets or summons, and (iirc) they do include over kill damage. MaxQuest made a mod that fixes most of these issues.

[MadDemiurg]

I'm pretty sure it does track at least some dots or my priest would be running with 0 damage done. I know about the pets though, so it's not good for evaluating ranger, although you could probably estimate the % of damage pet does and add it. It does work well enough for comparing let's say rogue vs barb tho.

 

It's obviously highly subjective because it depends on how you build and use your characters, but compared to "but X is better" it's as good of an argument as any.

Edited April 5, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Boeroer]

Well I talked explicitly about mid to late game and already said that early game is good with the rogue.

 

No DoTs were/are logged in PoE if I remember correctly. Might be wrong though. I never paid much attention to that part of the sheet. Things that didn't get logged were Soft Winds, Dragon Thrashed and pet damage.

 

Priest's pillars spells, Iconic Projection, Storm of Holy fire and so on do get logged. So maybe that's why your priest has damage on the sheet.

 

MaxQuest's mod is an eye-opener by the way. It's enlightening to see a ranger's damage added with his pet damage - or the insane damage boost a chanter gets with Dragon Thrashed.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

I don't know the exact details regarding DoTs, MaxQuest would be the person to ask about that.

[JerekKruger]

or the insane damage boost a chanter gets with Dragon Thrashed.

 

Doesn't Chanter pretty much overtake everyone in very short order when they hit level 9?

[Boeroer]

Except Barbs optimized for HoF and Priests optimized for Shining Beacon I think so. But I guess that also highly depends on how you play. If you like to stretch your party (and the enemy) over the whole battlefield and like to pick off casters with a rogue or fighter or monk then maybe not. AoE is only good if you can hit a lot of enemies with it.

[MadDemiurg]

Well I talked explicitly about mid to late game and already said that early game is good with the rogue.

 

 

Well, then what's the point of this in context of PoE 2 and specifically nerfing sneak attack at low level?

 

I don't know where Obsidian takes their data from, but if you take a street fighter rogue and micro it properly I'm pretty sure it would come out on top of the damage charts in most parties.

 

So "single class rogues don't do well" meme probably comes from people letting party AI do the work. Although multiclass rogues are indeed a lot better, to the point of compete ridiculousness, because of the frontloaded nature of the class.

 

Likewise, if SA scales I would expect it to end up with more than +50% at PL 9. Should be good for lategame power.

Edited April 5, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Boeroer]

Yes, that was my saying as well. I mean the part where single class rogues would benefit from a scaling Sneak Attack with Power Level - because in the late game static 50% damage bonus doesn't really cut it. I also said that we can't know which great stuff might await the high level rogue - like an upgrade of Sneak Attack or some AoE stuff or a posionous lash ability or whatever.

 

I didn't really argue with you. I just agreed to somebody else's opinion and explained why I think rogues were underperforming in mid to late game PoE on PotD - and that I hope the same doesn't happen to Deadfire's (single class) rogues. I had the impression you wanted to argue about it, not me. Which I have no probolem with of course. I mean why not?

Edited April 5, 2018 by Boeroer

[MadDemiurg]

I still think that for level 1-16 playthrough, especially solo, rogue was one of the best classes. Maaaybe they got shafted a bit lategame but if at that point you can still solo everything does it really matter?

 

I personally wasn't interested enough in Pillars during WM2 to do the ultimate run (although I've still beaten WM solo, just w/o doing everything), but successful ultimate runs I'm aware of are paladin, priest, wizard, rogue. Tbh I can see why it's that way.

[Boeroer]

Rogue because it's superpopular. High (perceived) dps is always cool and popular. And if something's popular chances are higher that you hear something about it. I found barb, monk and chanter (way) easier in PotD solo games. Especially monk. Paladin is superboring solo. But doesn't really matter. To each their own.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Boeroer

[MadDemiurg]

Nah, I don't think that's the reason. And personally, I found barb pretty bad for solo. My fav solo classes for poe1 were cipher and wizard (in terms of fun), and I consider rogue to be actually better than cipher for solo post nerfs and wizard better than both, but as you said to each their own, let's agree to disagree here. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[MadDemiurg]

Ok, bit more detailed tier list after playing bit more. Still undecided on a large number of classes, so far from final for me.

 

WTF tier

Beckoner

 

OP Tier

Paladin

Fighter (really any but devoted is probably the best and black jacket the worst. best abilities are universal though)

Souldblade

Chanter (rest)

Street fighter

 

High tier

Shifter

Berserker

Priest (on higher levels, low tier at the beginning)

Ascended

Beguiler

 

Med tier

Rogue non street fighter

Ranger

Barb (rest)

Monk (but not sure, I want to try monks more but not super impressed so far)

Druid (rest)

 

Low tier

Wizard

Cipher (no subclass)

 

Certain classes can go up when multiclassing because of synergies provided.

Edited April 6, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[theBalthazar]

Interresting list. But why chanter is "OP" ?

 

Paralysed (forget the name : p) is very good indeed, but he cannot kill all ennemies as well as others melee classes.

 

Beckoner need 6s to create invocation. It is pretty long for a WTF tiers. Except if it is overall. "defensive side". ?

 

All the rest seems to be at the good place.

Edited April 6, 2018 by theBalthazar

[mrmonocle]

wizard at low tier? sorry, no. A wiz had the most damage dealt count on my every run + cc is the best.