Your Tiers List [Base Classes, Subclasses]

[Boeroer]

Priest of Wael/Bleak Walker should work. Since the Blast also gets all the bonuses like lashes an FoD shot with +50% shock, +30% burn and +20% corrode in an AoE would be devastating I guess. I actually never tried, only Wael/Monk with +80% shocking lash with Blast. Swift Flurry + Blast is still better though...

[mrmonocle]

+ 1 devoted berath.

[theBalthazar]

In fact, the interest of devoted / Berath is cleave stance + Modal of greatsword = crazy damage.

 

The advantage is :

- 2H is 99 % of time less good than 2W, but here this is crazy damage.

- Cleave is a "one shot" approach after a kill. That advantage strongly 2H.

 

After what, if in the game, there is a better weapon, the part of "priest damage" is strongly reduce. But at the start of game (line II of spells) +50 % acid is unique and very good.

Edited April 3, 2018 by theBalthazar

[MadDemiurg]

Cleave is a full attack afaik?

[dunehunter]

Still the +50% lash of berath weapon is like that you are doing FoD with every auto attack, multclass a fighter guaranteed your acc.

[dunehunter]

A berath/stalker was pretty decent last beta, the wounding got nerfed now it’s damage is really low, even you hit someone with 200+ damage, the DoT is like 17 or so. But ranger is still the class with best single target accuracy, with priest u can get +10 acc from mark, 10 from flank, 10 from stalkers link, 20 from devotions =+50 acc, and all of these bonus applies to spells too, not only melee attacks. Same as ranger/cipher with borrrowed instinct. Could be the best single target CCer in the game because the crazy acc he has.

[MadDemiurg]

I mean, berath is definitely decent but it still doesn't match the good dw build damage output.

 

Yeah, +50% lash is like bleakwalker FoD except for the +20 accuracy and full attack part and while FoD is limited by zeal this is also limited by buff duration.

 

God weapons would be really good if they weren't meme weapons or if the weapon balance was actually any good.

 

I actually tried soloing Skulking horror (PotD) with a lvl 6 devoted/berath priest, it didn't go well, it generally is a relatively easy fight for high dps builds. 5+ sec recovery in heavy armor is too painful when you can have like 2.8 with dual sabres or spears. You can go light armor but then you're bit too squishy.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[dunehunter]

I mean, berath is definitely decent but it still doesn't match the good dw build damage output.

 

Yeah, +50% lash is like bleakwalker FoD except for the +20 accuracy and full attack part and while FoD is limited by zeal this is also limited by buff duration.

 

God weapons would be really good if they weren't meme weapons or if the weapon balance was actually any good.

 

I actually tried soloing Skulking horror (PotD) with a lvl 6 devoted/berath priest, it didn't go well, it generally is a relatively easy fight for high dps builds. 5+ sec recovery in heavy armor is too painful when you can have like 2.8 with dual sabres or spears. You can go light armor but then you're bit too squishy.

 

I agree with you that 2h is behind dw yeah, only in few cases 2h is better.

[mostundesired]

Some thoughts on the state of rogues right now. Currently I can single class one who wears cloth armor and uses stilettos and have relative and sometimes unexpected success in an undersized party, so long as they have another character supporting them. To me, this illustrates two things: rogues are really good when they have support in addition to their own abilities, and by extension something we already knew but may not have acknowledged all the reasons for, that multiclassing makes rogues REALLY good. Of course one of the reasons why multiclassing makes rogues so good is because they can stack damage multipliers and whatnot, but another reason is because they have greater survivability.

 

So then I see rogue's dilemma as a single class is that they were squishy, but could dish out a lot of damage. Fine in and of itself. When combined with multiclassing, they can opt to lose the squishiness or stack the damage to be disproportionately high. If they want to balance multiclass rogues against that, one way is to make their damage lower, but if they do that, rogues have to be even less squishy, which they are not when single classed.

 

Personally, I echo others' sentiments in that I'd rather they leave rogues as the high damage squishy class and find a way to reduce the stacking damage numbers from multiclassing instead. Maybe reduce sneak attack and assassinate damage when combined with abilities from other classes, but not auto attacks and rogue abilities. Say if barbarians have a modal to do extra damage with auto attacks for whatever reason, then sneak attack and assinate get weaker. But if the modal is turned off, sneak attack and assinate do full damage. Fireball doesn't get full damage from sneak attack/assassinate, but mortal blow does.

[dunehunter]

Rogue suffers more than fighters on the issue that the resource pool is fixed no matter how many active abilities you have. All rogue abilities are of this category so you pick cripple strike, withering strike but hey you only have 5 guile to use them, which make this pretty meanless. They need some self buff abilities like fighter/monk/barbarians, and of course more passives.

[Yosharian]

Rogue suffers more than fighters on the issue that the resource pool is fixed no matter how many active abilities you have. All rogue abilities are of this category so you pick cripple strike, withering strike but hey you only have 5 guile to use them, which make this pretty meanless. They need some self buff abilities like fighter/monk/barbarians, and of course more passives.

 

I mean, they have one of the most powerful passives in the game in Sneak Attack, and you could just multiclass to those classes to get access to those passives

[Aramintai]

 

Rogue suffers more than fighters on the issue that the resource pool is fixed no matter how many active abilities you have. All rogue abilities are of this category so you pick cripple strike, withering strike but hey you only have 5 guile to use them, which make this pretty meanless. They need some self buff abilities like fighter/monk/barbarians, and of course more passives.

 

I mean, they have one of the most powerful passives in the game in Sneak Attack, and you could just multiclass to those classes to get access to those passives

 

It is potentially powerful, good luck actually reliably proccing it with a single class without dying and rest spamming, because rogue's abilities for what they do have too high cost. Other single classes do reliably more damage overall and survive, so those few potential high dps attacks of a rogue don't do much for the party. Multiclass rouge, on the other hand, is a whole other story - it's great. I don't know what can be done to single class rogue to make it more appealing without making multiclass too OP, but as it is I find it too weak. Maybe single classes should have some extra passive ability that beefs them up, but I doubt devs will put anything extra so late.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Aramintai

[Boeroer]

Singel class rogue with rod+Blast is good because of the AoE that applies afflictions of striking abilites as well (Arterial Strike in an AoE and then kiting is great). But sadly said rogue with rod+Blast is even better when multiclassed with a Cipher or Priest of Wael or Bleak Walker or or or.

 

At least at lvl 9. I'll wait and see...

[mostundesired]

Hesitate to suggest this, higher base accuracy might do the trick? Better chance with affliction, better chance to crit, won't be as big a bonus when multiclassed. I'm aware the devs originally leveled out accuracy because there were already a lot of bonuses, but this is less worried about missing and more thinking of where we can boost Rogues without overpowering their multiclasses. Hey, they brought back graze, didn't they? I don't know, I'd just rather throw out a stupid idea than stay quiet.

 

Which reminds me of that passive that converts 10% of hits into crits, that I avoided entirely because it didn't seem worth it. Would have to see how much accuracy increases the chance of criting, I think someone's done the math but I can't find it.

[Enoch]

For what it's worth, here's the part of Monday's Q&A (transcript) where Josh addressed balance issues with regard to subclasses:

 

"Feel pretty decent about subclasses overall. I will say that there are still some subclasses that we look at where I'm kind of like,"I don't know, is that really working? Is that really a good advantage, or is that disadvantage actually practical?" I know the Nalpazca is still probably kind of crazy. Soul Blade is still a little wild. And like some people said, the Black Jacket maybe seems like it needs either a bigger benefit or a reduced penalty, for not being able to have Constant Recovery. So, there are little things like that."

Edited April 4, 2018 by Enoch

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Singel class rogue with rod+Blast is good because of the AoE that applies afflictions of striking abilites as well (Arterial Strike in an AoE and then kiting is great). But sadly said rogue with rod+Blast is even better when multiclassed with a Cipher or Priest of Wael or Bleak Walker or or or.

 

At least at lvl 9. I'll wait and see...

 

 

Here's my suggestion for the Rogue single class:

 

Give the Rogue more CC and debuff abilities, especially abilities that let the rogue inflict each Affliction type. Make it possible to build an affliction specialist martial rogue. There's some of this already in place, but there could be more.

 

This won't buff the Rogue multiclasses because every caster class it would hybridize with has other ways of doing the same thing, it wouldn't buff rogue/martial hybrids TOO much because that synergy is weapon damage not CC, but it would give pure rogues a bigger range of build choices.

[theBalthazar]

For 3 guiles and against only a single target, I want a skill with +50 % damage.

 

For 2 guiles Barbaric blow is now OK.

 

For 2 guiles, Mule kick will be OK IF distracted is repaired.

 

But Rogue have only trash active abilities.

 

Same for the concussive shot of ranger. fortunately only one bond. I'm not even sure that worth it's this price...

 

If I can change a thing : concussive shot is a shot in the head. There is a notion of risk.

 

- Hit to crit : 40 % + Interruption on hit + 20 % of critical hit.

- Or/And Paralysed / Stunned ?

Edited April 5, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Yeah, I was thinking of single target paralyzes and stuns for the rogue. I can't find a good chart of afflictions to compare with what they already have though. Like, strike the bell has dazed/staggered but only if you're using two handed weapons (does that work with an arquebus?)

Edited April 4, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Aramintai]

Maybe give rogues Bloody Slaughter and Confident Aim passive abilities? More damage and won't affect Fighter or Barbarian multiclass as they have them already.

I also feel like Rogue's active abilities are so weak they should cost less by 1 point. But perhaps that may be too OP for multiclass 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Aramintai

[MadDemiurg]

Single classes that work well enough are either the ones that have no good multiclass build options or the ones that gain more and more powerful abilities with each level. Tbh almost all weapon classes benefit from multiclassing now, but rogue is likely the most front loaded class of all.

 

Rogues get like 80% of their power from the first level.

 

There's no real way of making multis less OP than nerfing starting class abilities and giving all classes good abilities on each new power level.

 

Currently 90% of the rogue ability tree is trash but sneak attack + let's say street fighter passives are so massive it doesn't really matter.

 

Sneak attack needs to be nerfed at level 1 and scaled with either power level or new talents at certain power levels. The whole actives tree is in severe need of rebalancing, most of them are complete trash both in guile costs and in general. You should be excited to unlock stuff like strike the bell earier, not look at it and say: "well, its another ****ty ability I won't use".

 

And honestly, single class rogues aren't that bad compared to other single classes, they're just harder to use. Pure street fighter still deals pretty absurd dps but you need to jump through additional hops to keep it alive.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Single classes that work well enough are either the ones that have no good multiclass build options or the ones that gain more and more powerful abilities with each level. Tbh almost all weapon classes benefit from multiclassing now, but rogue is likely the most front loaded class of all.

 

Rogues get like 80% of their power from the first level.

 

There's no real way of making multis less OP than nerfing starting class abilities and giving all classes good abilities on each new power level.

 

Currently 90% of the rogue ability tree is trash but sneak attack + let's say street fighter passives are so massive it doesn't really matter.

 

Sneak attack needs to be nerfed at level 1 and scaled with either power level or new talents at certain power levels. The whole actives tree is in severe need of rebalancing, most of them are complete trash both in guile costs and in general. You should be excited to unlock stuff like strike the bell earier, not look at it and say: "well, its another ****ty ability I won't use".

 

And honestly, single class rogues aren't that bad compared to other single classes, they're just harder to use. Pure street fighter still deals pretty absurd dps but you need to jump through additional hops to keep it alive.

 

 

Ok, this is a better idea than my idea was. It would take more work though -- will they have time by publish date?

 

One thing that bugs me about strike the bell is the way it's gatelocked by weapon types. If I want the Stagger I have to use a two hander or whatever, etc.

[MadDemiurg]

I don't have high hopes for Deadfire balance on release. There's so much broken stuff. We should start thinking about patches 1, 2 and 3. Maybe a year after release it would get better.

[draego]

Single classes that work well enough are either the ones that have no good multiclass build options or the ones that gain more and more powerful abilities with each level. Tbh almost all weapon classes benefit from multiclassing now, but rogue is likely the most front loaded class of all.

 

Rogues get like 80% of their power from the first level.

 

There's no real way of making multis less OP than nerfing starting class abilities and giving all classes good abilities on each new power level.

 

Currently 90% of the rogue ability tree is trash but sneak attack + let's say street fighter passives are so massive it doesn't really matter.

 

Sneak attack needs to be nerfed at level 1 and scaled with either power level or new talents at certain power levels. The whole actives tree is in severe need of rebalancing, most of them are complete trash both in guile costs and in general. You should be excited to unlock stuff like strike the bell earier, not look at it and say: "well, its another ****ty ability I won't use".

 

And honestly, single class rogues aren't that bad compared to other single classes, they're just harder to use. Pure street fighter still deals pretty absurd dps but you need to jump through additional hops to keep it alive.

 

Well this is why when i first heard about multi-classing and power level i figured they were going to use power level to scale powers like sneak attack. So that way you start with like a 15% sneak attack and then scale it up. This way you differentiate single vs mult class  (single always having a better sneak attack than multi) and dont front load everything to make some multi class combo op. 

[dunehunter]

Single classes that work well enough are either the ones that have no good multiclass build options or the ones that gain more and more powerful abilities with each level. Tbh almost all weapon classes benefit from multiclassing now, but rogue is likely the most front loaded class of all.

 

Rogues get like 80% of their power from the first level.

 

There's no real way of making multis less OP than nerfing starting class abilities and giving all classes good abilities on each new power level.

 

Currently 90% of the rogue ability tree is trash but sneak attack + let's say street fighter passives are so massive it doesn't really matter.

 

Sneak attack needs to be nerfed at level 1 and scaled with either power level or new talents at certain power levels. The whole actives tree is in severe need of rebalancing, most of them are complete trash both in guile costs and in general. You should be excited to unlock stuff like strike the bell earier, not look at it and say: "well, its another ****ty ability I won't use".

 

And honestly, single class rogues aren't that bad compared to other single classes, they're just harder to use. Pure street fighter still deals pretty absurd dps but you need to jump through additional hops to keep it alive.

If you plan to rebalance sneak attack, I’d suggest rebalance soul whip too, one is +50% damage, one is +40% damage at lvl 3. Quite close and nobody complain multclass a cipher is too good.

 

IMO it’s not because rogue’s early power is too good, but their later power too trash, they are already lowest tier class in PoE 1

Edited April 5, 2018 by dunehunter

[MadDemiurg]

Cipher already starts with only +20%, although another +20% is available too fast imo. And multiclass cipher is too good, in some cases. Just that cipher is a caster class, so taking it just for passives is not always justifiable (often is though). Anyways, I think pretty much all starting abilities need to go through this change.

 

Rogue lowest tier class PoE1? Lol, I think it was the first class to solo PoTD.