On the absence of arcane duels

[dam]

So, how many of you bros played Baldur's Gate 2 ?

 

 

Remember all these spell deflection, spell turning, school immunity, spell trap and all ?

Also remember spell thrust, khelben's warding whip, pierce magic, ruby ray of reversal... ?

 

 

Now these allowed a wizard to go spell for spell with an enemy caster.

 

With these, you could have true wizard duels.

 

 

While there are some (well, two, if memory serves) arcane deflection spells in the game, I do not remember seeing anything designed specifically to take them down ?

 

 

I miss that, those duels were just so cool.

[fortuntek]

There weren't many times in BG2 where mages had one on one duels... The drow fighting pit comes to mind? In the base game anyway. The idea is cool, that mages can hold their own and have whole new layers of defenses and counters but I don't see this fitting well in a PoE game where the focus is so much more on party balance so I can't see them messing with that. I miss elements of BG2 style gameplay too though.

[dunehunter]

I think he means counter spells in Bg2 like Dispel Magic, Breach against Protection from Magic Weapon, and Spell Immune: Protection against Dispel Magic, or True Sight against Invisibility.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Some of that stuff seems to have been added in with the new refined Interrupt system and the changes to the concentrate/interrupt mechanic. 

[cheesevillain]

Well, BG2 was a game all about wizards and their utterly useless hanger-ons, so they got a little more love. :-P

[AndreaColombo]

Deadfire should bring something at least similar to the table—not just with the new Concentration/Interrupt system, but also with the new Inspiration/Affliction system where Inspirations and Afflictions can counter each other, as well as the keyword system where, for example, spells with the Water keyword can counter spells with the Fire keyword (going by memory from either a QA stream or a tidbit Josh posted on Tumblr or Twitter.)

 

It won't be the same as BG2, but it should be more engaging than PoE.

 

Of course, first we need to fix casting times and other things about spellcasters...

[kanisatha]

But why the special consideration for spell casting? I find spell casting to be a tedious chore, and that's exactly why BG2 is not so awesome for me, compared with BG1 which I love. Seems rather unfair to have content that one group of players will love and others will hate. If there's going to be spell duels/battles, then maybe there should also be similar content where only martial combat will work and all spell casting/usage is somehow blocked.

[dam]

But why the special consideration for spell casting? I find spell casting to be a tedious chore, and that's exactly why BG2 is not so awesome for me, compared with BG1 which I love. Seems rather unfair to have content that one group of players will love and others will hate. If there's going to be spell duels/battles, then maybe there should also be similar content where only martial combat will work and all spell casting/usage is somehow blocked.

 

I can absolutely understand your stance on the matter, and indeed vanilla BG2 could seem unfair at times to parties devoid of arcane casters.

It was however, equally (if not more so !) harsh on parties without a rogue to remove traps, some of those were absolutely deadly and impossible to bypass.

 

 

 

There were, besides, always means of taking down magical defenses or disabling the enemy spellcaster without resorting to a mage, for those averse to wizards.

 

Vanilla BG2 had :

- paladins (inquisitor innate ability, or regular paladins with Carsomyr)

- priests

- and perhaps even druids who were able to cast Dispel Magic to remove Stoneskin and Protection from magic weapons / mantle

- monks, with their innate resistance to magic

- wizardslayers, who inflicted miscast magic on touch

- divine (priest, druid) silence spells

- insect plague (druid) also messed your ability to cast for seemingly forever

- or poison attacks, now that I think of it

 

ToB furthermore introduced spellstriking wands which made the job even easier, and were usable by every character.

 

In fact, opting for a spell duel instead of actually dispelling stoneskin and rushing the enemy wizard was actually the more difficult approach.

 

 

 

Either way my point is as follows :

In BG2 you could opt for the spell duel, or merely bruteforce your way through.

I see no reason such balance couldn't be found in POE2.

 

I'm not asking for enemy spellcasters that would require a wizard to take down, I'm saying I'd love to have those duels again.

In fact, I regularly replay BG2 specifically to be able to engage wizards (and dark elf priestesses) in fights of the mind.

[fiddlesticks]

If you want a picture of BG2, imagine an Inquisitor stomping on a Mage's face - forever.

[cheesevillain]

I have two questions for dam.

 

First Question: Would you like spell duel to work between wizards, or spell duels between all three main caster classes: wizards, druids and priests?

 

Second Question: The new keyword system that allows spells to interact with each other. (spell with fire keyword like Fireball cancels spell with frost keyword, like chilling fog, for example) This is different from the BG system, but does it feel like a move towards spell duels for you?

Edited November 24, 2017 by cheesevillain

[dam]

I have two questions for dam.

 

First Question: Would you like spell duel to work between wizards, or spell duels between all three main caster classes: wizards, druids and priests?

 

Second Question: The new keyword system that allows spells to interact with each other. (spell with fire keyword like Fireball cancels spell with frost keyword, like chilling fog, for example) This is different from the BG system, but does it feel like a move towards spell duels for you?

 

 

Thank you for your interest in the topic cheesevillain; please find my answers below.

 

 

With regards to your first question, it would be unfair for said "duels" to be restricted to wizards.

Arcane shields currently work against all spell types, so it follows that most (if not all) spellcasting classes should have a few counters available to them.

 

 

With regards to your second question, that is a very good point indeed.

I do like the addition, it sort of mimics the Counterspell mechanic in NWN and NWN2.

Indeed I find it is a move in the good direction, with the following reserve : given the current casting times, it feels like by the time you've countered a spell, it was going to expire naturally anyway

[Nail]

I remember times using co-op to duplicate skill tomes in BG one for BG 2 export   

 

And there was a rumor that a random squirrel drops a godly ring, so I couldn't get past any critter, never found one though!

 

Duels were chaotic... Only good pvp I recall in "dungeons and dragons online".

 

Those were the times...

[dam]

And there was a rumor that a random squirrel drops a godly ring, so I couldn't get past any critter, never found one though!

 

Was your squirrel in BG1 or BG2 ?

Was it named "squirrel" ?

'cause if it was, it's child's play to find the creature with NearInfinity, and confirm or debunk the rumour

Edited November 24, 2017 by dam

[Nail]

 

And there was a rumor that a random squirrel drops a godly ring, so I couldn't get past any critter, never found one though!

 

Was your squirrel in BG1 or BG2 ?

Was it named "squirrel" ?

'cause if it was, it's child's play to find the creature with NearInfinity, and confirm or debunk the rumour

 

BG 1

Just an ordinary squirrel, you know, running around forests....

 

Aw, I recall BG 2 that moment you push that door on bridge with rogue stone...

[dam]

 

 

And there was a rumor that a random squirrel drops a godly ring, so I couldn't get past any critter, never found one though!

 

Was your squirrel in BG1 or BG2 ?

Was it named "squirrel" ?

'cause if it was, it's child's play to find the creature with NearInfinity, and confirm or debunk the rumour

 

BG 1

Just an ordinary squirrel, you know, running around forests....

 

Aw, I recall BG 2 that moment you push that door on bridge with rogue stone...

 

Do you mean that moment your live stream Let's Play ends abruptly to general laugther, or that moment you reload a quicksave because, let's face it, level 10 to confront the Rune was a bit optimistic ?

[Heijoushin]

I really loved wizards in IWD, so I know how you feel. However, this ship has sailed long ago. Wizards in PoE are just not the little Gods that there D&D counterparts were. All in the name of this thing we call "balance", they've lost their summons and awesome defensive spells, and even their attacks are looking a little lackluster in the beta at the moment. 

[dam]

I really loved wizards in IWD, so I know how you feel. However, this ship has sailed long ago. Wizards in PoE are just not the little Gods that there D&D counterparts were. All in the name of this thing we call "balance", they've lost their summons and awesome defensive spells, and even their attacks are looking a little lackluster in the beta at the moment. 

 

I have full confidence Obsidian will be able to fine tune this.

 

Indeed offensive spells are exceedingly lackluster at the current time, in part because of penetration (which is being rebalanced right now) and cast times.

 

That's why (amongst other things) we have a beta.

 

 

Things will work out in the end.

 

 

Congrats on your thousandth post by the way.

[Heijoushin]

Congrats on your thousandth post by the way.

 

Haha, thank you! I didn't even notice!

 

Yeah, I'm sure wizards will get some love before the beta ends.

[Nail]

I really loved wizards in IWD, so I know how you feel. However, this ship has sailed long ago. Wizards in PoE are just not the little Gods that there D&D counterparts were. All in the name of this thing we call "balance", they've lost their summons and awesome defensive spells, and even their attacks are looking a little lackluster in the beta at the moment. 

I think wizard is a god in PoE I...

Rogue is in the same spot, but I like wizard a bit more.

Nevertheless, all games before PoE I hated wizards and played only fighters

[dam]

 

I really loved wizards in IWD, so I know how you feel. However, this ship has sailed long ago. Wizards in PoE are just not the little Gods that there D&D counterparts were. All in the name of this thing we call "balance", they've lost their summons and awesome defensive spells, and even their attacks are looking a little lackluster in the beta at the moment. 

I think wizard is a god in PoE I...

Rogue is in the same spot, but I like wizard a bit more.

Nevertheless, all games before PoE I hated wizards and played only fighters

 

Really ?

 

I could never play a fighter, waaaay too boring.

 

The only game in which I voluntarily rolled fighters was Dragon Age Origins, because you could shield bash, shield slam and shield-whatever-else-it-was and it looked friggin' awesome.

[daven]

I always play a fighter.. ALWAYS!

 

But I still liked it that Mages were really powerful, because they should be. A fighter shouldn't be able to stand toe to toe one on one with a mage. But as part of a group a fighter fills a good purpose. And looks badass in plate armour with a sword and shield.

Edited November 24, 2017 by daven

[MortyTheGobbo]

The mage duels were nice and all, but an aspect of how there wasn't much tactics or depth to anything except magic. There's a lot of classes in this game other than wizards and I like that Pillars doesn't put them on a pedestal and fawn over them, the way Baldur's Gate, and AD&D in general, did. Or... at least not quite as much.

Edited November 24, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[dam]

The mage duels were nice and all, but an aspect of how there wasn't much tactics or depth to anything except magic. There's a lot of classes in this game other than wizards and I like that Pillars doesn't put them on a pedestal and fawn over them, the way Baldur's Gate, and AD&D in general, did. Or... at least not quite as much.

 

As a matter of fact, wizards were vastly underpowered in Baldur's Gate 2, in comparison with :

- themselves in BG1 (lower hp pools, resistances, and save rolls)

- the Forgotten Realms lore (as in, the books)

 

Read yourself some War of the Spider Queen trilogy and see how Pharaun Mizzrym, Gromph Baenre or Lord Dyrr are instrumental in major battles.

And we're not talking only brute damage either, we're talking control, we're talking divination (if I remember correctly, Gromph is an especially skilled diviner), we're talking utility such as flying or leaping.

Even wands were instruments of devastation in the books; wands, not rods or scepters, mere wands...

[kanisatha]

 

Either way my point is as follows :

In BG2 you could opt for the spell duel, or merely bruteforce your way through.

I see no reason such balance couldn't be found in POE2.

 

I'm not asking for enemy spellcasters that would require a wizard to take down, I'm saying I'd love to have those duels again.

In fact, I regularly replay BG2 specifically to be able to engage wizards (and dark elf priestesses) in fights of the mind.

Yes, the nature of the enemy doesn't matter to me, only that whomever it is I should be able to take down through brute force without having to resort to spells.

 

And the truth is that BG2 did not make this possible. A party without a powerful wizard would get its ass handed to it against the really powerful wizards in that game unless the player was highly experienced and did a near-perfect job of buffing and debuffing.

[kanisatha]

I always play a fighter.. ALWAYS!

 

But I still liked it that Mages were really powerful, because they should be. A fighter shouldn't be able to stand toe to toe one on one with a mage. But as part of a group a fighter fills a good purpose. And looks badass in plate armour with a sword and shield.

I always play fighters (or something closely related) because for me they are the most interesting by far. And I utterly reject the notion that fighters should not be equivalent to wizards in power. For me, the only truly satisfying way to take down enemies, especially bosses including powerful spell-casters and even dragons, is to put cold steel to their face and without resorting to any spells.