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[Suggestion] Injury overhault

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#1
Hariwulf

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I had an idea while answering a discussion, but I liked it so much that I decided to make a post about it. Basically the community noticed that the injuries can be greatly debilitating, like a Gaping Wound, and are perceived as overly-punishing. So, I thought about a couple of ways to improve that aspect.

 

 

I would overhaul the troublesome or harsh aspects of the injury system by sorting the gravity of the injuries according the number of wounds already obtained (in a progressive way).

Another way to do it could be to determine gravity of wounds according the negative health value reached upon receiving a killing blow (overkill mechanic).

 

An example:

 

Progressive Injury System

1st Injury-  Minor wound     (low debilitation, can heal in time)

2nd Injury- Medium wound  (medium debilitation, 50% chance to self heal in time OR heals in long time)

3rd Injury-  Mortal wound    (high debilitation, won't heal unless treated)

4th Injury-  Death               (definitive debilitation, won't heal unless reloading a prior save, haha)

 

OR:

 

Overkill Injury System

Calculate "overkill value" (the damage below 0 health points) and set gravity of the injury received accordingly. The following numerical values are provided to give an example.

 

PC at 50 HP, receives 50 damage, gain Minor wound       (low debilitation, can heal in time)

PC at 50 HP, receives 100 damage, gain Medium wound  (medium debilitation, 50% chance to self heal in time OR heals in long time)

PC at 50 HP, receives 150 damage, gain Mortal wound    (high debilitation, won't heal unless treated)

 

 

 

The reason I am suggesting such methods is simple:

 

In the Progressive example, the aim is to forgive little mistakes and not push the player to rest after each battle "gone slightly wrong", while increasingly punish a careless player or a player that is facing many powerful enemies in succession, and therefore is probably in an area where he/ she shouldn't be at that given level.

 

The Overkill example follows the same rules, since if an enemy manages to overkill a character with a big margin, and therefore causing a highly debilitating injury, it probably means that the player is in an area with higher level requirement than the one currently possessed by the party, or using Mages and Rogues as tanks without investing in resistances.

 

Both are seemingly realistic, balanced and immersive.


Edited by Hariwulf, 21 November 2017 - 11:17 AM.

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#2
KingDiamond

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Why should I not rest after every fight if the game allows it? Why would I continue with an injury?



#3
Hariwulf

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Why should I not rest after every fight if the game allows it? Why would I continue with an injury?

Because, as the community stated, it breaks the flow of gameplay a bit too much often.
Besides, you can always rest if you wish, I merely suggested 2 ways to punish less a small mistake, while punishing increasingly more repeated misdoings.



#4
Enduin

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I would be in favor of the Overkill system. I've suggested creating a two tiered Injury system between Minor and Serious Injuries. Though with your proposal of self healing wounds the idea of Minor, Medium and Mortal is also a good idea.

 

One issue with the Injury system that a few posters have brought up in the other threads is that it's universal and doesn't account for character class or type. You could argue that it does with regards to combat and the likelihood of said character getting knocked out in the first place, but that's pretty tenuous already and more importantly it ignores the fact that Traps inflict Injuries and most likely scripted interactive events will have a chance to impart them too. Certain classes and characters with very high CON, and maybe RES too, should not be able to get injuries as easily as other classes and characters with very low CON/RES. 

 

Having Injury tiers and using a stat based condition to derive what severity of injury is given helps to balance this out. So in your Overkill example if a character gets knocked out with a really powerful attack that will trigger a Mortal Wound, but that can then be checked against their CON/RES stats and maybe certain unique Class/Sub-class modifiers that provide a chance for that Mortal Wound to simply be a Medium or Minor one. Same condition could then be also used to calculate severity of Injuries when a character triggers a Trap or suffers an Injury from a scripted event, though in that case the Injury severity should be rolled against whatever stat was at play in that event, not specifically to CON/RES. So like if you're attempting to jump a gap and it requires DEX and you fail it the Injury type will be determined by your DEX.

 

Weighing the Injury types would also be beneficial. Again if we go with three classifications for Injuries 4 Mortal Wounds = Death, 8 Medium Wounds = Death and 12 Minor Wounds = Death. 1 Mortal Wound would result in 25% reduction in health, while one Medium Wound wouldn't, but 2 Medium Wounds would = 20% reduction in health and then 3 Minor Wounds would = 15% reduction in health. And so on. 

 

That said three tiers might be more complex than is needed, which is why in other threads I advocated for just two: Minor and Serious. But I think the overall idea is more flexible and the right direction from both a gameplay perspective and a RPing one. 


Edited by Enduin, 20 November 2017 - 12:05 PM.

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#5
Wormerine

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At this point we might as well return to health/endurance. The point of injury system is to make things more readable and easier to understand not a complex web if major/minor injuries, with different penelties and "death door" points. 

The main focus of the game is on adventuring, not healing. It ain't Hospital Tycoon.


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#6
Enduin

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At this point we might as well return to health/endurance. The point of injury system is to make things more readable and easier to understand not a complex web if major/minor injuries, with different penelties and "death door" points. 

The main focus of the game is on adventuring, not healing. It ain't Hospital Tycoon.

True, but the player really wouldn't have to worry about that background stuff. That's just important for balancing and overall feel. In actual practice it would simply be I have X wound(s), is it enough to make me want to Rest and use up some of my rations and lose whatever resting bonus I currently have or are they minor enough to just ignore and let them heal on their own or deal with when something more serious happens. 

 

The current system doesn't really offer any nuance to it. Every character and every injury results in a 25% drop in health and other decently annoying penalty, no matter the class, stats or circumstances. So one alone is cause to Rest for some and for most people two basically is a necessity. But by having injuries of lesser and greater severity it can possibly become more of a meaningful trade off rather than an automatic reaction. 


Edited by Enduin, 20 November 2017 - 12:27 PM.

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#7
dam

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My thoughts on what improvements could be made to the Injury system, right here in dat other thread.



#8
Hariwulf

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I would be in favor of the Overkill system. I've suggested creating a two tiered Injury system between Minor and Serious Injuries. Though with your proposal of self healing wounds the idea of Minor, Medium and Mortal is also a good idea.

 

One issue with the Injury system that a few posters have brought up in the other threads is that it's universal and doesn't account for character class or type. You could argue that it does with regards to combat and the likelihood of said character getting knocked out in the first place, but that's pretty tenuous already and more importantly it ignores the fact that Traps inflict Injuries and most likely scripted interactive events will have a chance to impart them too. Certain classes and characters with very high CON, and maybe RES too, should not be able to get injuries as easily as other classes and characters with very low CON/RES. 

 

Having Injury tiers and using a stat based condition to derive what severity of injury is given helps to balance this out. So in your Overkill example if a character gets knocked out with a really powerful attack that will trigger a Mortal Wound, but that can then be checked against their CON/RES stats and maybe certain unique Class/Sub-class modifiers that provide a chance for that Mortal Wound to simply be a Medium or Minor one. Same condition could then be also used to calculate severity of Injuries when a character triggers a Trap or suffers an Injury from a scripted event, though in that case the Injury severity should be rolled against whatever stat was at play in that event, not specifically to CON/RES. So like if you're attempting to jump a gap and it requires DEX and you fail it the Injury type will be determined by your DEX.

 

Weighing the Injury types would also be beneficial. Again if we go with three classifications for Injuries 4 Mortal Wounds = Death, 8 Medium Wounds = Death and 12 Minor Wounds = Death. 1 Mortal Wound would result in 25% reduction in health, while one Medium Wound wouldn't, but 2 Medium Wounds would = 20% reduction in health and then 3 Minor Wounds would = 15% reduction in health. And so on. 

 

That said three tiers might be more complex than is needed, which is why in other threads I advocated for just two: Minor and Serious. But I think the overall idea is more flexible and the right direction from both a gameplay perspective and a RPing one. 

 

Thank you for your participation, I like what you said.

Another hardcore selling point of the Overkill system is that will push the player to role-play each team member properly.
For example if a Rogue or Wizard get hit in the face by an Ogre, chances are the player is doing something wrong.
Each class tend to have resistances tied to the role, so that should keep things balanced.



#9
dam

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For example if a Rogue or Wizard get hit in the face by an Ogre, chances are the player is doing something wrong.
 

 

 

*** DISAGREEMENT ALERT ***

 

 

You try to hold aggro in this game ?

 

Like, on the Skulking-Terror laguafeth for example ?

Son of a gun keeps moving away or turning away from my MT to engage my rogue, even though there's engagement.

 

Tanks have a terrible time keeping aggro right now.

 

 

Like, the guy literally about-faces to smash my rogue in the face no questions asked, even though I waited say 10-20 seconds before making my rogue attack.

 

There are no field control skills whatsoever at the current time.

 

Enemy triggers a disengagement attack ?

Oh noes, he's gonna get grazed for damage that won't defeat his armor...



#10
Natures Bounty

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It is a pity that they changed game mechanics so much. especially the way health / endurance and knockout injuries were handled in poe 1. because that was the best health / injury system I ever saw in a game.

#11
Hariwulf

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For example if a Rogue or Wizard get hit in the face by an Ogre, chances are the player is doing something wrong.



*** DISAGREEMENT ALERT ***


You try to hold aggro in this game ?

Like, on the Skulking-Terror laguafeth for example ?
Son of a gun keeps moving away or turning away from my MT to engage my rogue, even though there's engagement.

Tanks have a terrible time keeping aggro right now.


Like, the guy literally about-faces to smash my rogue in the face no questions asked, even though I waited say 10-20 seconds before making my rogue attack.

There are no field control skills whatsoever at the current time.

Enemy triggers a disengagement attack ?
Oh noes, he's gonna get grazed for damage that won't defeat his armor...

Yeah, I commented this aspect too.
A barbarian is bashing the skull of a Lad...Ladguaferth...geez, the fish thing!

And what happens? The enemy totally ignored him, pays disengagement attack upon attack as he chase down my Rogue on the other side of the screen, even if said Rogue is idling since combat started.

We saw this behavior in POE 1, but here is even worse, at least at the moment.
But I will admit, for a while it was fun to see an enemy chasing a squishy, while chasing said enemy with a melee.

#12
KingDiamond

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Why should I not rest after every fight if the game allows it? Why would I continue with an injury?

Because, as the community stated, it breaks the flow of gameplay a bit too much often.
Besides, you can always rest if you wish, I merely suggested 2 ways to punish less a small mistake, while punishing increasingly more repeated misdoings.

 

Why not bring back the old system with camping supply then. Backtracking to get more camping supplies would break the flow of gameplay way more than resting often.

There is no consequence to the actual system because you can make injury disappear at will. At least before you had the consequence that it would be boring and tedious to constantly go back to buy more supplies. It seems that some people could not realize they should lower the difficult if they had to constantly do that.  Now as a result we get a pointless system. 



#13
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Why should I not rest after every fight if the game allows it? Why would I continue with an injury?

Because, as the community stated, it breaks the flow of gameplay a bit too much often.
Besides, you can always rest if you wish, I merely suggested 2 ways to punish less a small mistake, while punishing increasingly more repeated misdoings.
Why not bring back the old system with camping supply then. Backtracking to get more camping supplies would break the flow of gameplay way more than resting often.
There is no consequence to the actual system because you can make injury disappear at will. At least before you had the consequence that it would be boring and tedious to constantly go back to buy more supplies. It seems that some people could not realize they should lower the difficult if they had to constantly do that. Now as a result we get a pointless system.

You answer your first sentence with the second. Lots of people did it all the same and it was a bad experience, this the changes. There are still incentives to going as long as possible without resting but without the downsides that drove people away from the game.

#14
KingDiamond

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What are the incentives to keep going? If resting breaking game flow is an incentive to keep going then backtracking being tedious is certainly a better incentive.



#15
Breckmoney

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What are the incentives to keep going? If resting breaking game flow is an incentive to keep going then backtracking being tedious is certainly a better incentive.


The incentive is to not burn through your high quality rations by resting all the time. We just don't have any food options implemented yet that aren't common and cheap.

#16
KingDiamond

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What are the incentives to keep going? If resting breaking game flow is an incentive to keep going then backtracking being tedious is certainly a better incentive.


The incentive is to not burn through your high quality rations by resting all the time. We just don't have any food options implemented yet that aren't common and cheap.

 

That is what the dev said. But I did not care at all about resting bonus in the first game because i don't need them to win. Why should I care about food bonus in this game if I don't need them to win. 



#17
Breckmoney

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What are the incentives to keep going? If resting breaking game flow is an incentive to keep going then backtracking being tedious is certainly a better incentive.

The incentive is to not burn through your high quality rations by resting all the time. We just don't have any food options implemented yet that aren't common and cheap.
That is what the dev said. But I did not care at all about resting bonus in the first game because i don't need them to win. Why should I care about food bonus in this game if I don't need them to win.

For the same reason anyone playing an RPG like any stat boosts? I don't even really know what to say to that. This is effectively no different than the previous system except you are rewarded for playing well.

#18
KingDiamond

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The problem is that resting has a meaningless consequence because the bonus are not necessary. You lose something you don't need.  If you get to many injury you will rest that's it. In the old system you lose a camping supply which you might need later and the consequence is you have to backtrack. It was not meaningless.  Concerning getting rewarded for playing well that will make the game easier.  You are doing good, let's make the game easier. 

 

This is not an issue that will make the game good or bad in my opinion but I think this system is pointless. No one is ever gonna die from injury you will rest before.  They should just let you die when you reach 0 HP and remove rest, bring back something like the old system or find a way to limit rest.



#19
fable123

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To me this feels like the devs were going for realism and preserving the function of food/cooking. I didn’t use food that much in POE 1. It would be useful before big fights but it always felt ancillary to me. In POE 2, it’s realistic for food to be used with resting and it’s realistic for resting to mend injuries. I agree with what folks have mentioned about possible abuse of resting. Adding back camping supplies would be a deterrent/limitation and also keeping with the realism that the devs are looking for.

#20
Hariwulf

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For those who think about multiplayer arenas or duels, I think the OP means it more in a Black Pits / Baeloth style ;)

 

 

Loved these arenas, and the one in the Underdark as well.

 

 

Would kill for an endless dungeon / arena.

 


 

The problem is that resting has a meaningless consequence because the bonus are not necessary. You lose something you don't need.  If you get to many injury you will rest that's it. In the old system you lose a camping supply which you might need later and the consequence is you have to backtrack. It was not meaningless.  Concerning getting rewarded for playing well that will make the game easier.  You are doing good, let's make the game easier. 

 

This is not an issue that will make the game good or bad in my opinion but I think this system is pointless. No one is ever gonna die from injury you will rest before.  They should just let you die when you reach 0 HP and remove rest, bring back something like the old system or find a way to limit rest.

 

The point is, generally speaking, to have to rest less often for one char that passed out. While adding a ton of immersion in the process, (Overkill system) and precise, direct consequences to combat outcomes (the bigger the hit, the bigger the wound).

Concerning your "Concerning getting rewarded for playing well that will make the game easier.  You are doing good, let's make the game easier. ":

I don't get your logic: If you play well, you wouldn't need to rest anyway. So what are you complaining about?







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