Another help me build a Barbarian

[Braven]

I have a genuine question why most build go with MIG? I'm thinking of a low MIG build (since we have Greater Frenzy). I'm going towards the Crit build (Probably stun). Is that a good choice? Since DEX and PER is so crucial for a crit build and i think 17 Int is also crucial (From 16 -> 17 nett a 12% gain in AOE).

 

MIG - 10

CON - 10

DEX - 20

PER - 18

INT - 17

RES - 3

 

Is 10 MIG viable for HoSR? or I should go with 20 MIG and 10 DEX? I'm really bad in making decision.

As boerer said, high might is mostly for healing and extra damage that is more noticible in the early game before things like high crit multiplies and superb weapon enchants reduce the relative value of might. This is also partly because of how DR relates with damage multipliers. DR has a larger impact when multipliers are low. To make a dent against high DR, you either need more damage multipliers or lower DR or both. Lowering DR makes a larger impact early on but requires a talent (vulnerable attack). Going with 18 might instead of 10 results in a 24% damage bonus. Average Base damage of a large one-handed weapon is 13.5. 13.5 * .24 = 3.24 extra damage per hit. Vulnerable attack is a flat 5 additional damage most of the time (at least when it matters) but comes with a speed penatly. Of course, you could get both for 8.24 more damage. That is really noticible early game since without those carnage only does like 1-2 damage after DR most of the time and even less with grazes which are very common early. Sometimes even less than that. 8.24 additional damage is a huge percentage increase! 6-8 times more damage! Over 10 times more damage with a grazing hit which happens all the time with carnage early on. Nothing beats that. This is also why stilleto weapons are good early with barbarian. They contribute another 3 DR bypass to carnage. That has more impact than the might too, though eventually stacking DR has reduced return if you frequently remove all DR from an enemy.

 

Only dex helps non-attack/healing powers like frenzy and barbaric shout activation by making them complete faster and have reduced recovery. Also can help getting a cluth heal off when enemies are interrupting and preventing the action from actually happening (a common problem with low resolve). Might won’t help you if you can’t heal in time and is wasted if you heal early and end up “over healing”. Veterans recovery works great even with low dex because it is passive and requires no action.

 

Only might (and int) stats help savage defiance and veterans recovery talent heal more. Since you already need high INT, might as well get the Might too to make the talent/ability have better synergy. Dex doesn’t help much here (unless savage defiance has an animation... can’t remember but I think it is not too significant). Barbarians have a really nice healing ability with savage defiance and veterans recovery is a great talent, particularly for barbarians.

 

The main benefit of dex is being able to stun better, But the problem is you won’t be able to get stunning weapons, or have enough accuracy to make them effective, until mid-late game. Until then, the dex is less helpful than Might for general combat effectiveness. Savage defiance and veterans can be had at level 3 and vulnerable attack at level 4 for really high DPS and survivabilty and is more effective than higher attack speeds.

 

After getting stunning weapons and enough accuracy (through leveling) to crit well, maybe retrain to high dex for better stunning.

 

Another option is low CON. With properly healing and plate armor, it is not really required and then you can have both high might and dex. However, you will need to rest more often and the vital fortitude defense will be worse which can cause issues sometimes (find yourself proned by enemies a lot if not careful).

 

Because barbarians already have such high endurance multipliers and powerful early healing, barbarian can deal with low con pretty well if you want to be more DPS focused. Often a good defense is a good offense (dead enemies can’t damage you) and you Maximize synergy of offensive stats by getting all of them. There is a nice +2 con sword pretty early that can help mitigate the low con and is a great weapon with dual damage types and also looks great.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Yes, I would put the points into DEX. 

[Braven]

@Boeroer

I think i'm going to go with your suggested stats and refine it abit:

 

MIG: 18

CON: 10

DEX: 12

PER: 18

INT: 17

RES: 03

 

Remaning +2 ATTR points do you think it's beneficial to dump it to DEX?. Also by the way, anyone knows about concealment? When i'm on Frenzy i didn't notice my HP. Can you actually die because you didn't know the remaining HP?

14 dex I think is a good number. Those look like great stats from beginning to end. . I recommend veterans recovery at 2, vulnerable attack at 4, and then a weapon style (duel/one-handed/two-handed) and weapon focus at levels 6 or 8. If going two-handed, get the weapon focus earlier; maybe level 4, since two handed crit-weapons are available early.

 

For frenzy, if you hover over your endurance/health pool, you can see a “color coded” indicator. That allows you to get an approximate gauge on endurance and health. If it is red, heal asap; you are under 25%. Yellow means you are around half endurance. Orange is around 33%. It is annoying, but basically allows you to see how much you have, even though the exact amounts are hidden

Edited October 21, 2017 by Braven

[Boeroer]

If you trigger Frenzy at the start of combat and also took Veteran's Recovery then the concealed endurance/health is not too bad - because you heal automatically.

 

If I'm not sure if endurance drops too quickly despite Veteran's Recovery I like to trigger Savage Defiance. It's strong from early to mid game. Later it falls behin because it doesn't scale with level, but with healing modifiers like survival and item (up to +85%) it stays to be useful.

 

At the same time Shod-in-Faith boots work very well with such stats.

[Phenomenum]

How you fight melee with RES 3? Attack only disabled enemies? I don't imagine how it might work

I've being often interrupted with RES 10 in melee with one single enemy, if he is not disabled with CC spells or something.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Phenomenum

[Braven]

It is an issue, but I still think it is the “lesser of evils”. As your attack speed increases and you interrupt enemies frequently it becomes less and less of a problem. You can also get concentration boosting items later on or cast spells to compensate. Like you said, you also get interrupted at 10 resolve. You really need max resolve to prevent it, but that would ruin the other stat synergies and deflection will never be good with barbarian.

 

The other reason for low resolve is that it can also have a benefit. There are a ton of items that fire off a powerful effect when you recieve a critical hit. By tanking your deflection, you can trigger these more easily. This makes up for the downside of low concentration.

 

I suppose optimal would be higher resolve for ACT 1 and then retraining it to 3 at the start of ACT 2... if you want to truly min/max. That is when you can acquire on-getting-crit items, speed enchantments, and concentration boosters. In ACT 1, low concentration and deflection has no upside.

 

Different stats are more or less helpful at different stages of the game.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Braven

[Archaven]

How you fight melee with RES 3? Attack only disabled enemies? I don't imagine how it might work

I've being often interrupted with RES 10 in melee with one single enemy, if he is not disabled with CC spells or something.

 

That's the drawback of min/maxing. There's answer to dump RES. You need great healing/regen. You need to ensure you don't get interrupted and cast protections spells on him. The worst affliction against him i think would be Will. Manage those and you can dump RES.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Archaven

[Archaven]

I like high MIG and INT because I always use Veteran's Recovery and/or Savage Defiance. High MIG also counters the -34% damage malus from Carnage a bit.

 

Stun suppresses prone. It's of little use to combine We Toki with a stunning weapon like Cladhaliath except for the times you meet foes who are immune to one of those afflictions.

The combo Wodewys + We Toki or Shatterstar + Godansthunyr is more useful in my opinion. I would also try a single handed Cladhaliath with Stunning + Vicious. +17 ACC and 15% hit to crit is nice if you're looking for AoE stuns. Dual Wielding with a spear just looks stupid.

 

10 MIG can work, but it will take some time to stack some other damage bonuses so that the lack of MIG gets less obvious. So in the early game you damage per hit will be meh if Frenzy runs out. Later on - with more crits and other damage mods - you don't feel it any more and DEX will be more important.

A lot of DEX also helps with the lengthy animation of Frenzy.

 

How does Veteran's Recovery work? It shows 3.7*Endurance per 3s for 60.8s. So if my Endurance is 81 starting of the battle, it means i'm going to get recovery of 99.9 Endurance per sec? That doesn't make sense. If it's just adding 3.7 End per every 3s then it means i'm getting 1.2 End per sed. Isn't that useles?

Edited October 22, 2017 by Archaven

[MaxQuest]

How does Veteran's Recovery work? It shows 3.7*Endurance per 3s for 60.8s. So if my Endurance is 81 starting of the battle, it means i'm going to get recovery of 99.9 Endurance per sec? That doesn't make sense. If it's just adding 3.7 End per every 3s then it means i'm getting 1.2 End per sed. Isn't that useles?

Veteran Recovery restores lost endurance over time. It doesn't go over your max endurance.

The base values are: 3 Endurance (+1 every 3 levels after 1) per 3s for 45 seconds. Meaning that

- it ticks once in 3s

- total base duration is 45s, this translates to 16 ticks

- it scales with level. I.e. +3 becomes +4/+5/+6/+7/+8 on levels 4/7/10/13/16

 

At 10MIG/INT it has potential to restore:

- up to 3 * 16 ticks = 48 Endurance on lvl 1, over 45s

- up to 8 * 16 ticks = 128 Endurance on lvl 16, over 45s

 

The amount restored by each tick scales with MIG (and is also influenced by +% healing modifiers). While he total duration scales with INT.

 

---

I have tried to estimate how useful would this talent be in practice.

 

And first have checked a few of my last fights, specifically their duration:

- Magran's Faithfull: 18s of unpaused normal time

- Brynlod: 22s of upaused normal time

- Llengrath: 27s of unpaused normal time

 

Now imagine that I have a lvl 16 chanter with 22 MIG / 24 INT with +60% healing from survival. How much would Veterans' Recovery could potential restore to him?

- 18s => 7 ticks * 8 * (1.36 + 0.6) = 7 * 15.68 ~= 110

- 22s => 8.33 ticks * 8 * (1.36 + 0.6) = 8.33 * 15.68 ~= 131

- 27s => 10 ticks * 8 * (1.36 + 0.6) = 10 * 15.68 = 157

 

Not bad. But now cut these values at least in half, because quite often VR will have no effect cose chanter will already be at full endurance:

- due to no damage taken yet

- silver tide

- shod-in-faith

- athletic/potion heal

- beloved spirits

- scroll of moonwell

 

TL.DR. Personally I wouldn't take it in a cc and healing heavy 6-man party. But if it would add endurance atop the maximum value, or would also restore health, something like Infuse Vitality... that would be a different story.

Edited October 22, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Braven]

It is exactly like it sounds. In your example, 3.7 health restored every 3 seconds. Keep in mind, it scales with level so long it will be more later. Also, healing modifers affect it and will increase the healing.

 

While it may seem insignificant,remember that it is passive and takes no action. Basically a couple second winds with zero animation and no recovery time. Or another way to look at it is doubling or tripling your endurance pool early game. That is like 20 CON of additional endurance at the start of game. With a couple points in survival and that early amulet, it is like 30 or so more CON.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Braven

[Boeroer]

I think it's great. Like Braven said, it's the passive and "no fuzz" part that makes it good. It doesn't matter if you are paralyzed, stunned or prone: you heal.

It's as powerful (or even a bit more powerful) as Constant Recovery of a fighter. And nobody complaints about that ability.

 

I always use it with healing bonuses and try to stack it with several other passive healing sources (like Ancient Memory + Beloved Spirits + Shod-in-Faith boots for example).

 

It is especially useful in the early to mid game where your endurance pool is a lot smaller than later. But since it scales it's also not bad in the late game. Unlike Savage Defiance which is very good in the early game and gets less an less useful the more you level.

 

I like it a lot on all builds that have poor defenses, decent health (be it from class or through high CON) but want to be on the frontline. 

[Dr <3]

Is also one of the best talent for a solo charachter, since without a party all fights take a long time ( you will often use the whole duration), and you have to tank everything alone.

[Archaven]

@MaxQuest

Thanks for the great and lengthy explanation! I'm wondering Obsidian will leave it again to you guys for finding those calculations in Deadfire :/. If they can put these details on Character sheet that be great. Like Regen/s, Atk Speed, etc.

 

By the way, i often go for +ACC racial bonus rather than Healing Bonus. Anyone can share how you normally spend your resting bonus? I would normally go for Healing Bonus unless he'll be tanking.

 

@Boeroer

My Barbarian PT seems starting badly comparing to my Ranger build. Seems to have lots of KO/Injuries. I just notice that some 2Hander doesn't have reach. Which means he probably has to off-tank or flank. Dumping RES seems going a tanky Barb (max CON) seems like a better choice. But so far i'm getting it. Barbarian deals the most AOE damage for me so far. And with high ACC it's nice seeing so many hits!

Edited October 23, 2017 by Archaven

[MaxQuest]

I'm wondering Obsidian will leave it again to you guys for finding those calculations in Deadfire :/. If they can put these details on Character sheet that be great. Like Regen/s, Atk Speed, etc.

There will be an improvement in Deadfire. Some of tooltips seem to list casting and recovery time now.

But... we'll have to see how accurate and trust-worthy they are

 

By the way, i often go for +ACC racial bonus rather than Healing Bonus. Anyone can share how you normally spend your resting bonus? I would normally go for Healing Bonus unless he'll be tanking.

Early game: +ACC vs creatures on dps and debilitators; +DR on those who don't cc/deal damage.

Mid game: taking +Healing on tank (instead of +DR) if I feel he'll need it, or if have/gonna use Wound Binding

Late game: keep +Healing on tank

Boss fights: taking +Healing on barbarian, instead of +ACC - as I don't need him to attack dragons

Edited October 23, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Yes, barbs are very squishy at the beginning because their endurance and health pool isn't that much bigger (in flat numbers) but their deflection is awful.

 

With every level the advantage of the higher modifiers for health and endurance gets more and more obvious and they turn into great meat shields. But that doesn't help at the beginning. So just be careful.

 

That's the main reason why I pick Vet. Recovery at lvl 2 with a front line barb every time.

[Ymiraku]

If you plan on tanking with your barb I wouldn't drop resolve to 3 unless you have a priest in your party to cast hold meditation or put belt of chimes on the barb for concentration. Otherwise your barb will never get an attack off and you will constantly get interrupted whilst trying to shout.

[Moneo]

Yes, losing concentration is the worst downside of dumping Res on a melee warrior in PoE. IMO, barbs in PoE don't get much benefits from min-maxing (comparing to other classes like wizards, ciphers and even fighters). A balanced barbarian works pretty effectively. A min-maxed barb is viable too, although this approach requires a bit more micro, as far as I can see. But everyone plays the style he likes.

[mosspit]

That's why a "tanking" barb can be designed to deal dmg by passive means - eg Barbaric Retaliation, Potions of Flame Potion, Item Retaliation.

 

Make them less dependent on actually dealing dmg by their actual actions. So less reliant on the concentration stat.

[Moneo]

Although retaliation damage is a good and handy addition to barb's offensive power, I wouldn't rely on it that much. A barb deals the most damage and number of kills with his weapons, so it's better to improve his active offensive capabilities.

 

Of course, there is nothing bad with stacking different sources of retaliation damage, but that's secondary IMO.

[mosspit]

As I said, it is for a tanking barb. So less reliant on the ability on completing actions. Which makes the char less reliant on concentration stat. Retaliation is a way for a tanking barb to do decent dmg without relying on completing actions.

 

And I have played both a tanking barb and an offensive barb

Edited October 26, 2017 by mosspit

[Archaven]

hey all im back. currently level 6. things been slow due to work and don't have much time for games. surprisingly my party is so good now. any feedback on my current party composition?

 

Kana - Main tank for Dragon Thrashed, Stun, Resurrection and AOE Heal

Pallegina - Off tank with a shield. Why is pistol 2Handed? If Pistol+Shield then that be awesome no?

Durance - Can't live without his buffs. He is godly.

Aloth -  An awesome debuffer and summoner. His role seems to have shifted. He's not so much of a nuker.

Hiravias - Storm, Shock, Debuff, Nuker, Shapeshift, Healer.. 

 

My current concern is... is this party setup good against the most difficult Dragon fights? I understand that i need a single target high damage character for Dragon fights. But i have no room for Sagani. I wanted her soooo badly. And i wanted Eder too but he MUST be replaced by Kana because i feel a Chanter role is so significant compared to a fighter.

 

My main Barbarian (with only 1 Shatterstar at the moment and have him another Club i got from somewhere which has +4 ACC which isn't that shabby) .. but he seems to be the "lowest" damage dealing character. What am i doing wrong? I really need vulnerable attack? Or he must go 2Hander to really deal some damage? But with 2Hander he is so awfully slow :/. And my DEX is 14 IINM (including gear) which isn't that bad. The rest of my stats are godly. 18 MIG, 17 PER, 17 INT (19  with gear).

Edited October 31, 2017 by Archaven

[Boeroer]

Your barb is doing low damage because at lvl 6 he's still grazing and missing a lot (he starts with mediocre accuracy and carnage has -10 accuracy at the beginning. At lvl 6 it's still -4). Also you will not have a lot of damage bonuses which means that the -34% damage malus from carnage stilll hurts - especially if you also graze (-50% damage).

 

This would have been different with Novice's Suffering, but nobody listens to me anyways...

 

A club is not the best option early in the game because of the same reasons (low base damage, paired with malus and few bonuses has trouble with DR, especially when grazing), although the +5 ACC helps a bit. A flail would be ok I guess because of the graze to hit conversion. Maybe try Gaun's Share because it also has draining which is cool with carnage.

 

Try to get another hammer or (if you don't have a Weapon Focus yet) use sabre, spear or sword. Maces and stilettos are are also good in the early game for a dual wielding barb because of the DR bypass. Enchant those with a lash (and fine) asap.

 

If you want to use light weapons (stilettos/clubs/flails/daggers/rapiers/hatchets) on in a regular basis then take Vulnerable Attack, yes.

 

If you want to use Two Handers take Blood Thirst asap.

 

Also try to attack mobs which are already debuffed by your wizard. Curse of the Blackened Sight (wizard) is a nice foe-only debuff, as is Nature's Mark (druid) that lasts long time and helps a barb a lot to improve his attack quality. If your barb is not in the fray you can cast a Sunbeam or Slicken first. This way your barb will hit better and deal more AoE damage. 

 

Also get your barb ACC bonuses soon. Weapon Focus and Accurate Carnage help a lot in the early to mid game.

 

Against dragons a druid is very useful most of the time because of Hold Beast and petrify. If the dragon is immune to paralyze or petrify then there are other ways to beat him (prone via Calling the World's Maw, confuse, charm etc.). If you can disable him you can also hit him with damaging attacks and abilites. A single target specialist with high ACC helps, but it' also doable with your characters. Hiravias, shifted and attacking a disabled dragon also will do his part. Dragon Thrashed is helpful once the dragon is disabled and priest's Cleansing Flame + any DoT is harmful even for dragons (who are not immune to burn damage). I wouldn't be too scared.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Boeroer

[Archaven]

@Boeroer

 

I always trust you kind sir . I didn't go for Novice's Suffering because that's not my playstyle for a barb XD. I think the only character i have yet to try is Monk and Rogue. I heard alot of bad points about Rogue so probably the last will be Monk. Of all of my characters, i love the most is Ranger, Barbarian, Chanter now . I think my Barb don't have ACC problem. At the moment having him using Justice (reaching level 7) and he is so much different now with better damage. 

 

It's great to hear that my current party setup is fine for toughest dragon fights. Thanks!

Edited October 31, 2017 by Archaven