Multiclassing Update

[SaruNi]

Also, like the Wizard subclasses, the Trickster and Priest of X subclasses will hopefully have an additional bonus relevant to the concept. 

 

Priest of Skaen / Rogue multiclass might seem redundant too, but can get more overall Rogue abilities than any other combination. Though getting access to higher level abilities later will probably limit their abilities within a single Rogue tree (so a pure Rogue would be able to have more abilities in say the shadowing beyond tree, but at the expense of other Rogue abilities). 

 

And these "redundant" multiclass combinations also let you get around the new restriction on specializing in one of the classes at the expense of the other---you're essentially no longer forced to split the 2 points between the two classes, so you can be a Rogue/Wizard who specializes almost exclusively (or even exclusively) in Wizard, or a Priest/Wizard, Priest/Rogue, or Priest/Druid who specializes in the Wizard or Rogue or Druid part. So it's a bit like getting 2 levels in Rogue and then switching to Wizard, except you can also get higher level Rogue abilities if you like (though limited by ability tree prerequisites, and you can learn more spells overall). 

Edited October 6, 2017 by SaruNi

[MadDemiurg]

New system has less potential for cheese so its probably good.

 

For multiclassing, on paper the obvious win win options are Cipher/Rogue, Cipher/Barb and Cipher/Monk (with subclass that gains wounds from damage dealt). Damage + even more damage + powers fueled by damage.

 

Multiclassing a squishy high damage class with a Paladin might also be an interesting option.

 

Delayed spell progression is probably gonna make Druid/Wizard/Priest multiclasses not so great, although added versatility might be valuable when soloing and generally depends on which spell levels are going to have the best spells.

[SaruNi]

 

 

Delayed spell progression is probably gonna make Druid/Wizard/Priest multiclasses not so great, although added versatility might be valuable when soloing and generally depends on which spell levels are going to have the best spells.

 

If I understand correctly, the current system makes spells once / encounter (or one spell / encounter per ability point), casters have to spend an ability point to learn a new spell (priests don't get access to all spells of the level anymore, just those they've learned), and single-class characters get one ability point per character level. Multiclass characters get an extra ability point at 1st level and every 4th level, so they can potentially cast more spells / encounter than single-class characters. So that partly makes up for having a lower power level and delayed access to higher level spells.

 

Still, having two separate casters would be better than having a multiclass character. But PoE 2 is going to decrease the party size by one, so slots will be at a premium. With the extra per encounter spells it's not completely clear which is better, though I guess scrolls may make up for the spell number deficit (but then, some spells probably won't be available as scrolls).

 

Another major advantage of multiclassing is the use of spells that can only target the caster. In PoE 1 Wizards have a lot of good ones (defensive, offensive buffs, spell stealing, weapon summoning), though Priests only have Minor Avatar (and Consecrated Ground is "within radius of caster"). Druids have a few "within radius of caster" AoE effects, and also firebrand, Taste of the Hunt (the healing part), Rot Skulls, and Avenging Storm... not to mention spiritshifting (and other non-spell caster-only abilities).

Edited October 7, 2017 by SaruNi

[SaruNi]

So it may not necessarily be clear whose Priest spells would be more powerful---a single-class Priest, or a multiclass Priest-Wizard who uses the Wizard self-buffs. Of course the single-class could still cast higher level spells, buffs take time, etc....

 

If the relative lack of caster-only Priest spells (until Minor Avatar) doesn't change in PoE 2, casters might gain the least by multiclassing into Priest... perhaps that partly explains the partial hybrid Priest/Wizard and Priest/Druid subclasses. 

 

Otoh Priest spell effectiveness could gain a lot from Alacrity of Motion and Eldritch Aim... and once multiclass characters get access to Minor Avatar (at level 19) it could be a huge power boost (depending on what other buffs are available and whether they stack). 

Edited October 7, 2017 by SaruNi

[draego]

It not just that single class will have access to higher level spells where multiclasses dont but the spells the single class get will be better throughout the game. The spells will be higher scaled spells because their power level will always be higher. So the same spell a multiclass priest gets , which they will get at a later character levels, will always be worse versions of the spell when compared to single class spells. We will have to see how much worse but it will be worse.

Edited October 7, 2017 by draego

[SaruNi]

It not just that single class will have access to higher level spells where multiclasses dont but the spells the single class get will be better throughout the game. The spells will be higher scaled spells because their power level will always be higher. So the same spell a multiclass priest gets , which they will gets at a later character levels, will always be worse versions of the spell when compared to single class spells. We will have to see how much worse but it will be worse.

 

Yes, but when you combine self-buffs from both classes, the difference in "power level" may be more than mitigated, especially if spells can still crit. Though the best Wizard caster-only buff at mid levels might be Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, which makes the most of having more spells to cast by letting you cast at higher rate. (Likewise, the increase in accuracy (and therefore crit rate) from Eldritch Aim and crit rate from Merciless Gaze aren't directly comparable to power level, but they effectively increase power level through crits.) 

 

It seems likely that the combination of Minor Avatar, Alacrity, and scaled Eldritch Aim (not to mention Merciless Gaze, Spell Reflection, Grimoire Imprint/Spell Stealing) would make a level 19 Priest/Wizard cast spells with greater effective power than a single class Priest or Wizard. (But at the cost of the highest level Priest spells, which in PoE 1 were very powerful....)

 

If the spells are similar to PoE 1, then early to mid game all the benefits a Wizard would get from multiclassing with a Priest could be gotten by having an actual Priest nearby (even consecrated ground... if the Priest is close by and doesn't have to move to heal other characters... though consecrated ground and other close-range might be the major exceptions). But with Minor Avatar and the more powerful Priest spells the multiclass could be very strong---combining the good, scaling early to mid level Wizard DD and CC spells with the strong later level Priest DD spells. Casting stronger spells that hit and crit more often, having 6 more of them (not counting scrolls), and doing it 1.5x faster (not counting Substantive Phantom).... 

Edited October 7, 2017 by SaruNi

[rjshae]

It not just that single class will have access to higher level spells where multiclasses dont but the spells the single class get will be better throughout the game. The spells will be higher scaled spells because their power level will always be higher. So the same spell a multiclass priest gets , which they will get at a later character levels, will always be worse versions of the spell when compared to single class spells. We will have to see how much worse but it will be worse.

 

The spells scale by class level? I thought they are all fixed.

[SaruNi]

If PoE 2 Druid spells continue lacking caster-only self-buffs, even with self-buffs Druid-Priest will have strictly less casting power than single class (in a party with other casters to buff them) until level 19 brings Minor Avatar. But with fewer spells (and more restrictive scroll usage), having more spells than single class could help to counter a wider range of afflictions. Then again it's been said that more classes will be given ways to counter afflictions.... Also, damage type resistances are likely to be more prominent in PoE 2, so having a wider range of spell damage types (and more overall spells you can cast) may be very useful. 

 

Consecrated Ground + Spiritshift is nice, though you could get the same effect by having a Priest with Consecrated Ground nearby at all times.

Edited October 7, 2017 by SaruNi

[morhilane]

The spells scale by class level? I thought they are all fixed.

 

All class abilities (including spells) now scale based on your class power level (it cap at 9 for single classed and 7 for multiclassed).

[SaruNi]

Edit: on second glance I looked wrong, Minor Avatar as a 7th level Priest spell wouldn't be available to multiclass until level 19. Basically endgame.

 

Otoh Spark the Souls of the Righteous is a 6th level Priest spell which while not caster-centric has a pretty short range: 

 

Ramge: 2.5m

AoE: 1.75m Radius

Allied AoE Foe AoE for 30.0 sec   Ignites a powerful zeal within allies that manifests in an aura that Shocks any enemies near them.

 

Might be redundant with Storm spells though. 

 

Holy Power and Divine Mark are also relatively short-range spells. A Priest-Druid shapeshifter (or using Form of the Delengan and with Consecrated Ground) or tanky Priest-Wizard might benefit from them more easily than a squishy single-class Priest.

 

Of course it all depends on what the spells are in PoE 2.

Edited October 7, 2017 by SaruNi

[SaruNi]

One other benefit from Priest/Rogue multiclass---if I remember correctly in PoE 1 Withdraw counts as invisibility, and you can break out of Withdraw by taking any action. So that if a Rogue attacks from Withdraw, it counts as attacking from invisibility for Backstab / Sneak Attack purposes (and you can initiate the backstab from a significant distance away---you'll walk over to your target and it will still count as a backstab). Not 100% certain of this and anything could change in PoE 2 but it would make Priest of Skaen / Rogue multiclass a lot more attractive. 

 

(Then later on when Priest of Skaen / Rogue gets access to Deathblows and the more powerful Priest DD spells, they'll probably be doing more damage than a pure Priest despite the power level difference (does Dirty Fighting also increase crit % for spells?)... then at end game add in Minor Avatar to make up for the power level difference in Rogue abilities.)

Edited October 8, 2017 by SaruNi

[SaruNi]

One major question on multiclassing with the Druid Shifter subclass: "

• Shifter - Druid can shift to any animal form, once each, per combat and heals damage each time they shift back.  Cannot cast spells while shifted."

Do Powers and Invocations count as spells? What about abilities? Chants? Obviously Cipher or Chanter (maybe Troubadour if only phrases count as non-spells... or even if they do, phrase linger keeps having its effect). Imagine a Shifter-Troubadour....  

 

Shifter-Enchanter or Illusionist (maybe Transmuter, with that Ogre form, though I'm not sure what most of the "transmutation" spells would be other than "Form of the Beast"... and giving up Enchantment is a major sacrifice) multiclassing might be fun. Caster-only buffs then shift.

 

Fury Druid - Priest of Eothas (can cast Druid elemental spells) seems redundant at first but mitigates the obvious drawbacks (Fury can't cast Druid restoration spells, Eothas can't cast Priest Protection spells... and Fury Druid's elemental spells are more powerful, perhaps making up for the lower base power level from multiclassing). But the cheesiest elemental combo---Storm spells plus Withdraw---wouldn't be doable (unless another Priest cast it)... otoh Beetle's Shell (maybe plus Woodskin) could substitute (less cheesily). Plus you get to shift into a Storm Blight basically for free, along with the option of getting more Druid spells (and being able to cast more Druid spells per encounter?) than a single-class Druid. The later level PoE 1 druid abilities aren't that great anyway (though of course this could all change in PoE 2). 

 

A Transmuter who uses the Ogre form extensively could probably benefit from multiclassing. Again depending partly on what abilities/powers/invocations/chants count as "spells" (spells can't be cast in Ogre form). But mostly because Transmuter loses access to Enchantments, the main Wizard offensive self-buffs. So a Monk-Transmuter (Ogre Monk!) or Barbarian-Transmuter (Berserker Ogre) all seem nice.... 

Edited October 8, 2017 by SaruNi

[smjjames]

Wait, ogre form is a thing now? I'm confused. Josh said any of the current available spiritshifts and there aren't any new ones (aside from whatever Takehu's unique spiritshift is).

[SaruNi]

Wait, ogre form is a thing now? I'm confused. Josh said any of the current available spiritshifts and there aren't any new ones (aside from whatever Takehu's unique spiritshift is).

 

Transmuters (Wizard Subclass) get Ogre Form. But the lack of Enchantment spells is a huge negative (unless they multiclass... but the non-Wizard spellcasting classes' buffs are generally not caster-only, so you'd probably be better off having the buffer as a separate character rather than multiclass).

[smjjames]

 

Wait, ogre form is a thing now? I'm confused. Josh said any of the current available spiritshifts and there aren't any new ones (aside from whatever Takehu's unique spiritshift is).

 

Transmuters (Wizard Subclass) get Ogre Form. But the lack of Enchantment spells is a huge negative (unless they multiclass... but the non-Wizard spellcasting classes' buffs are generally not caster-only, so you'd probably be better off having the buffer as a separate character rather than multiclass).

 

 

Where was it said that they do? I don't remember seeing that. Possible I missed it. Wonder if the ogre form is available for wizards that don't do a subclass?

 

Also, the caster subclasses are better seen as specializations within a class rather than classes onto themselves, so, you'd have to give up some things since you're focused on one thing.

Edited October 8, 2017 by smjjames

[blotter]

Where was it said that they do? I don't remember seeing that. Possible I missed it. Wonder if the ogre form is available for wizards that don't do a subclass?

 

If you watch the

for update #40, you'll see them click through the wizard subclasses. The transmuter subclass' description includes the ability to transform into an ogre via an ability called "Form of the Fearsome Brute". There might be a spell that allows something similar, but given that it would almost certainly be a transmutation spell, maybe there won't be in the interests of avoiding redundancy/preserving the transmuter's uniqueness. Edited October 8, 2017 by blotter

[smjjames]

 

Where was it said that they do? I don't remember seeing that. Possible I missed it. Wonder if the ogre form is available for wizards that don't do a subclass?

 

If you watch the

for update #40, you'll see them click through the wizard subclasses. The transmuter subclass' description includes the ability to transform into an ogre via an ability called "Form of the Fearsome Brute". There might be a spell that allows something similar, but given that it would almost certainly be a transmutation spell, maybe there won't be in the interests of avoiding redundancy/preserving the transmuter's uniqueness.

 

 

To be fair, I WAS reading the captions and not paying as much attention to the context of the screen.

 

Looking at the video again, I see now, the other subclasses/specializations have their own unique spell or ability, so, it'd certainly be something that only that subclass has.

 

I wouldn't put it past Obsidian to have some item or scroll that gives that ability to those that wouldn't otherwise be able to have it.

Edited October 8, 2017 by smjjames

[SaruNi]

 

 

Wait, ogre form is a thing now? I'm confused. Josh said any of the current available spiritshifts and there aren't any new ones (aside from whatever Takehu's unique spiritshift is).

 

Transmuters (Wizard Subclass) get Ogre Form. But the lack of Enchantment spells is a huge negative (unless they multiclass... but the non-Wizard spellcasting classes' buffs are generally not caster-only, so you'd probably be better off having the buffer as a separate character rather than multiclass).

 

 

Where was it said that they do? I don't remember seeing that. Possible I missed it. Wonder if the ogre form is available for wizards that don't do a subclass?

 

Also, the caster subclasses are better seen as specializations within a class rather than classes onto themselves, so, you'd have to give up some things since you're focused on one thing.

 

 

Shown in a video (granted, not an official announcement so perhaps the ogre transmuters are less "set in stone" (not that anything ultimately is), but still...). See:

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/91439-list-of-subclasses-as-we-learn-about-them/?p=1938501