The History of Antifa vs. Nazi: The Light and Dark sides of the Force

[Eumaios]

That's the problem. If you term antifa as loosely people who are anti-fascist, I'm antifa. I don't think it's cool that mask wearing thugs have redefined the meaning, but there you go. I'm with you on that, Ben. As for you, smjjames, I agree that the Dems are starting to work hard to distance themselves. They were slow to do it, but I see them starting to craft narratives beyond Trump hate and antifa.

[redneckdevil]

As a practical matter, antifa is not going to help the Democrats in the next election. Sure, it's probably a badge of honor in this particular forum, but the Democrats will have to take the day with the albatross of antifa on their backs because people have come to associate them with the Democrats, which is probably unfair for the Democrats. Of course, this is the way of things since for so long it's been a winning tactic for the left to associate people like Nazis and white supremacy movements with the Republicans.

 

This isn't about winning an internet argument. I have nothing but contempt for Nazis. I can't imagine a single person who served in the military who has anything but disgust for people who put swastikas on the National Ensign or carries it while quoting Hitler or some other fascist thug as if he's a hero. This isn't a defense of white supremacy. However, antifa isn't about attacking Nazis. Antifa is about attacking free speech and the way this will play out over time in American politics won't help the Democrats. They need to put as much space as they can between these 'light side' crusaders and their party.

 

I don't like to make predictions, but I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, and I've had some small successes predicting these things in the past. I'll say this, if the Democrats embrace antifa with open arms, we're going to have a rare mid-term in which the party in power actually picks up seats.

I will admit, the Antifa has been a useful tool for the left. They were instrumental in making it appear from the media how dangerous pissed off BLM could be and how pissed off and dangerous Trump supporters could be. When the left is busing Antifa to cities (here in Charlotte we saw the buses and there was a riot), it's gonna be hard separating themselves away from them from the public's view now that they are popular.

[Malcador]

Well of course they can't separate themselves if people like you can say "The left is busing Antifa".

[smjjames]

The left? Oh, maybe the right bused the nazis to Charlottesville? Hows that cake?

 

Or perhaps, take this alteration:

 

"When the right is busing Nazis to cities (here in Charlotte we saw the buses and there was a riot), it's gonna be hard separating themselves away from them from the public's view now that they are popular."

 

You also seem to be equating the presence of buses to a riot, so, do you mean the buses caused the riot?

Edited September 17, 2017 by smjjames

[Eumaios]

The mad dash to establish parity will help the Democrats, but not by a huge degree.  The idea that the Republicans or other mainstream conservative groups are bussing in nazis won't get traction with the bulk of the American people because most won't believe it.  True or not, there is a large percentage of the population that believes that left leaning groups bus in protestors to some events.  It should be easy to find evidence of bussing and if it is compelling, then it serves to bolster an argument.  Both Democrats and Republicans use carpooling and bussing to get voters to the polls.  There is evidence that some protestors are paid by liberal groups at some events.  Left leaning and liberal and conservative and the like might be imprecise, but it's what we've got.

 

Since the Democrats did not state strong opinions against antifa early on and in fact since quite a number of Democrats talk in terms of 'resistance,' it isn't suprising that a number of Americans associate them with antifa.  Now that some prominent Democrats are speaking out against antifa, it will certainly help them nationally and in statewide elections.

 

This isn't really about arguing that antifa is good or bad.  It's about figuring out what will come of the movement and how it will impact politics.  I'll disclaim that I'm an American, a Republican, and would fit very easily into the 'white' category.  So now people know my particular slant, I won't lie and I won't try to be misleading in my analysis.  It wouldn't matter if I did.  My statements tend to be forward looking and there isn't enough traffic in this board for me to use underhanded arguments to promote any real agenda.  I'm going to say what I think will happen from all this and either it will or won't.  If it does, then I have some grounds for what I suggest.  If it doesn't, then I won't.  As time progresses, I'll either be proved right or wrong more often and people can assess my arguments.

[smjjames]

I don't actually think conservatives bussed the nazis into Charlottesville, a lot of them certainly bussed themselves into Charlottesville. I was just holding up a mirror to the accusation to show how silly it sounds when flipped on it's head.

 

As for the bussing and carpooling people to the polls, that isn't illegal or shady (unless you've got solid evidence of misdeeds), despite what some people may think.

[Eumaios]

My point is that bussing and of itself isn't bad.  If a group wants to bus people to a protest site, that's not bad unless the group in question does something bad.

 

I'm more concerned about public perception and how it impacts the election.  That's something with more concrete measures than folks dredging up webpages that other folks discount out of hand.  I probably won't be here next November, but wherever I am, I'll make sure to own my predictions.  Closer to the election, around January or February, I'll make predictions on my social media, which makes it impossible to get out of them.  Spin maybe, but you can't entirely get away from them.

[smjjames]

Doubt it'd affect the election much since those that believe such accusations are likely to vote Republican anyway. It'd be a concern if Trump decides to harp on about rigged polls because he's potentially invalidating BOTH parties elections.

 

It'd actually be more of a concern in 2020 because there would be more focus on one race and not 100s of others and a handfull of particularily up-in-the-air seats.

Edited September 18, 2017 by smjjames

[Eumaios]

I think most things impact the margins.  The point is to scare your side into voting and convince the other side its guy is either not worthy of the effort or simply can't win no matter what.

 

Antifa has already had an impact (or at least something) has had an impact on the fundraising for the ealier part of this year, but as the last presidential election demonstrated, having hundreds of millions more than the other party doesn't ensure victory.

[smjjames]

I think most things impact the margins.  The point is to scare your side into voting and convince the other side its guy is either not worthy of the effort or simply can't win no matter what.

 

Antifa has already had an impact (or at least something) has had an impact on the fundraising for the ealier part of this year, but as the last presidential election demonstrated, having hundreds of millions more than the other party doesn't ensure victory.

 

B-But Popular Vote!!!11!!!11!1 (lol, and I'm being silly there)

 

In all seriousness though, as you imply, having millions more than the other party doesn't matter if a good chunk of them decide to sit out the election

[teknoman2]

one thing that i know is "when you fight a monster for too long, you eventually become that monster yourself". all groups that call themselves anti-"something", use all the morally questionable methods of that "something" to push for their own social and political dominance instead of the protection of society from whatever evils that "something" allegedly brings. just because they use the "anti" they feel they have the absolute moral high ground and are entitled to the use of any method to win, even if that method is illegal or outright evil.

today's Antifa are just as fascist or even more so than the fascists they're supposed to oppose. they are simply glorified extremists on the other side of the road from the vilified extremists but extremism by nature is the same regardless of side and uses the same socially harmful methods to prevail. extremism under any circumstances is never a healthy thing for any person, group or society.

[Amentep]

Given that this thread has been several pages of the same territory as the political thread and we already have a political thread, I'm closing this thread in favor of the existing thread.