The History of Antifa vs. Nazi: The Light and Dark sides of the Force

[Ben No.3]

 

It did point out there is a record, a.k.a. it was documented, so yes it is 100% a document. What do you think document means? Must be handwritten and signed in triplicate? Hitler was a nazi, not a vogon.

Yes TN, document is a document. An order, report etc. Seriously I never would have though I will explain such triviality to an adult.

 

It's starting to bore me to argue a known facts.

 

I will just leave it here:

Wiki

 

"Many historians, such as Ian Kershaw, Raul Hilberg, and Martin Broszat, accept that no document exists showing that Hitler ordered the Holocaust."

 

Call Kershaw and tell him his wrong.

 

 

 

 

Syriza is by no means communist. The actual communist party of Greece, KKE, has less seats than Golden Dawn, the actual Neo Nazi party. That is all I said. And it is quite worrying that Nazis get more seats than communists; since communists who do decide to participate in parliament, or bourgeois democracy if you will, naturally aren't the hard militant type, which isn't (necessarily) the case for Nazis.

No one mentioned communism, you did.

 

The question and answer was:

 

 

Show me where there are a lot of nazis. Show me where they hold meaningful social or political power.

Greece.

And you came to KP defense so either you claim that Golden Dawn with 17 seats is ruling in Greece and not Syriza with 144 seats then I don't see any point in your response to this.

the question wasn't wether they were ruling, it was wether they held "meaningful social or political power", and I backed this claim by showing that the extreme right does indeed hold significant power for an extremist group, especially in comparison to the extreme left.

Syriza is literally an acronym that translates to COALITION OF RADICAL LEFT.

The hell are you blabering about? It seems like you see nazis everywhere.

and North Korea calls itself democratic. They are not communists because they call themselves "Radical Left". Things are sometimes a bit more complicated than the heading. They are by no means as radically left as Nazis are radically right.

 

Btw, you seem to have accepted Nazism as a right wing ideology ?

Edited September 17, 2017 by Ben No.3

[213374U]

As for the capitalism, first and foremost it's not a political system, it's a form of economy.

This reasoning works both ways. "Communism" therefore was first and foremost a form of economy, and what killed eleventy billion was the totalitarian dictatorships that oh just happened to have their economy organized along the lines of "communism".

 

Realistically, "the economy" itself is not something abstract and separate from politics. It is a system whose main actors are invariably connected to the levers of power, because said power is rooted in economic control and influence. The degree to which these two (infrastructure-superstructure) are interdependent has apparently been a point of contention since Marx postulated the model, but I don't know of anyone seriously proposing total and perfect compartmentalization.

[redneckdevil]

Quick question, so Antifa is against Nazism, why then do we see them at any type of BLM or any thing related to racism here in Merica?

[Malcador]

Quick question, so Antifa is against Nazism, why then do we see them at any type of BLM or any thing related to racism here in Merica?

Are they showing up to fight or just protest along side?

[213374U]

 

This reasoning works both ways. "Communism" therefore was first and foremost a form of economy, and what killed eleventy billion was the totalitarian dictatorships that oh just happened to have their economy organized along the lines of "communism".

 

Realistically, "the economy" itself is not something abstract and separate from politics. It is a system whose main actors are invariably connected to the levers of power, because said power is rooted in economic control and influence. The degree to which these two (infrastructure-superstructure) are interdependent has apparently been a point of contention since Marx postulated the model, but I don't know of anyone seriously proposing total and perfect compartmentalization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

 

"In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis, "common, universal")[1][2] is the philosophical, social, political and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money[3][4] and the state."

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism

 

"an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market"

 

Back to school man, back to school...

 

 

Le sigh.

 

"Capitalism is an economic system and an ideology based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.

 

[...]

 

Economists, political economists and historians have adopted different perspectives in their analyses of capitalism and have recognized various forms of it in practice. These include laissez-faire or free market capitalism, welfare capitalism and state capitalism. Different forms of capitalism feature varying degrees of free markets, public ownership,[8] obstacles to free competition and state-sanctioned social policies. The degree of competition in markets, the role of intervention and regulation and the scope of state ownership vary across different models of capitalism.[9]"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

 

If you're going to go by Wiki to illustrate your (glaring lack of) understanding of concepts, at least be consistent about it, and don't cherrypick definitions.

[BruceVC]

Quick question, so Antifa is against Nazism, why then do we see them at any type of BLM or any thing related to racism here in Merica?

I think the premise of the point that Antifa today in the USA is the same as Antifa from the past is not an accurate comparision

 

Historical  Antifa was opposed to fascist movements that wanted to control governments and were a real ideology that ended up ruling some countries

 

But Antifa nowadays is opposed to some right wing views some people in the USA have, its not like Trump is a real fascist or practices real Neo-Nazism 

[redneckdevil]

 

Quick question, so Antifa is against Nazism, why then do we see them at any type of BLM or any thing related to racism here in Merica?

Are they showing up to fight or just protest along side?

Tbh.... instigating fights?

These are the "black Bloc" anarchists who covered faces up in black who turned some peaceful BLM and Trump protests violent?

[redneckdevil]

 

Quick question, so Antifa is against Nazism, why then do we see them at any type of BLM or any thing related to racism here in Merica?

I think the premise of the point that Antifa today in the USA is the same as Antifa from the past is not an accurate comparision

 

Historical Antifa was opposed to fascist movements that wanted to control governments and were a real ideology that ended up ruling some countries

 

But Antifa nowadays is opposed to some right wing views some people in the USA have, its not like Trump is a real fascist or practices real Neo-Nazism

Maybe since here in Merica since our political system is a bit different wording and definitions, they look like brown shirts to me.

I mean I can understand and appreciate punching a Nazi or a klans man in the face, but I can't agree or like mimicking brown shirts (the enemy) as the way to get to the face to punch if that makes any sense.

Edited September 17, 2017 by redneckdevil

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Quick question, so Antifa is against Nazism, why then do we see them at any type of BLM or any thing related to racism here in Merica?

Because they figure their opponets are going to show up.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Quick question, so Antifa is against Nazism, why then do we see them at any type of BLM or any thing related to racism here in Merica?

I think the premise of the point that Antifa today in the USA is the same as Antifa from the past is not an accurate comparision

 

Historical Antifa was opposed to fascist movements that wanted to control governments and were a real ideology that ended up ruling some countries

 

But Antifa nowadays is opposed to some right wing views some people in the USA have, its not like Trump is a real fascist or practices real Neo-Nazism

Maybe since here in Merica since our political system is a bit different wording and definitions, they look like brown shirts to me.

I mean I can understand and appreciate punching a Nazi or a klans man in the face, but I can't agree or like mimicking brown shirts (the enemy) as the way to get to the face to punch if that makes any sense.

 

Red can I tell you something interesting about these debates that occur in Western countries and both sides, left and right,  at times seem to do this

 

People ignore or forget nuance or the principle of  " grey areas ", for example at Charlottesville there was violence from both sides....you could see it on any news  coverage. But does this mean the fear of white supremacists isn't real or a concern? Of course it is but it would be inaccurate to label all the people on the right as neo-nazis or that they were the only ones involved in violence 

[Hurlshort]

Poor Sharp_One. Nobody understands him! It is clearly the fault of everyone else. We can't english enough.

[Zoraptor]

 

 

As for Lithuania I don't know what you refer to, you need to be more specific.

 

 

I'm not surprised at all. Countries tend to avoid teaching their less than glorious history, and that which doesn't fit the national narrative.

 

(Polish Lithiuanian War. It's off topic anyway)

[Eumaios]

As a practical matter, antifa is not going to help the Democrats in the next election. Sure, it's probably a badge of honor in this particular forum, but the Democrats will have to take the day with the albatross of antifa on their backs because people have come to associate them with the Democrats, which is probably unfair for the Democrats. Of course, this is the way of things since for so long it's been a winning tactic for the left to associate people like Nazis and white supremacy movements with the Republicans.

 

This isn't about winning an internet argument. I have nothing but contempt for Nazis. I can't imagine a single person who served in the military who has anything but disgust for people who put swastikas on the National Ensign or carries it while quoting Hitler or some other fascist thug as if he's a hero. This isn't a defense of white supremacy. However, antifa isn't about attacking Nazis. Antifa is about attacking free speech and the way this will play out over time in American politics won't help the Democrats. They need to put as much space as they can between these 'light side' crusaders and their party.

 

I don't like to make predictions, but I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, and I've had some small successes predicting these things in the past. I'll say this, if the Democrats embrace antifa with open arms, we're going to have a rare mid-term in which the party in power actually picks up seats.

[smjjames]

I don't like to make predictions, but I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, and I've had some small successes predicting these things in the past. I'll say this, if the Democrats embrace antifa with open arms, we're going to have a rare mid-term in which the party in power actually picks up seats.

 

The Democrats have been trying to do the exact opposite and distance themselves as much as possible from antifa.

[Ben No.3]

Reminding of nuances. There are morally universes between the Antifa guys at Berkley and those at Charlottesville.

[Eumaios]

That's the problem. If you term antifa as loosely people who are anti-fascist, I'm antifa. I don't think it's cool that mask wearing thugs have redefined the meaning, but there you go. I'm with you on that, Ben. As for you, smjjames, I agree that the Dems are starting to work hard to distance themselves. They were slow to do it, but I see them starting to craft narratives beyond Trump hate and antifa.

[redneckdevil]

As a practical matter, antifa is not going to help the Democrats in the next election. Sure, it's probably a badge of honor in this particular forum, but the Democrats will have to take the day with the albatross of antifa on their backs because people have come to associate them with the Democrats, which is probably unfair for the Democrats. Of course, this is the way of things since for so long it's been a winning tactic for the left to associate people like Nazis and white supremacy movements with the Republicans.

 

This isn't about winning an internet argument. I have nothing but contempt for Nazis. I can't imagine a single person who served in the military who has anything but disgust for people who put swastikas on the National Ensign or carries it while quoting Hitler or some other fascist thug as if he's a hero. This isn't a defense of white supremacy. However, antifa isn't about attacking Nazis. Antifa is about attacking free speech and the way this will play out over time in American politics won't help the Democrats. They need to put as much space as they can between these 'light side' crusaders and their party.

 

I don't like to make predictions, but I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, and I've had some small successes predicting these things in the past. I'll say this, if the Democrats embrace antifa with open arms, we're going to have a rare mid-term in which the party in power actually picks up seats.

I will admit, the Antifa has been a useful tool for the left. They were instrumental in making it appear from the media how dangerous pissed off BLM could be and how pissed off and dangerous Trump supporters could be. When the left is busing Antifa to cities (here in Charlotte we saw the buses and there was a riot), it's gonna be hard separating themselves away from them from the public's view now that they are popular.

[Malcador]

Well of course they can't separate themselves if people like you can say "The left is busing Antifa".

[smjjames]

The left? Oh, maybe the right bused the nazis to Charlottesville? Hows that cake?

 

Or perhaps, take this alteration:

 

"When the right is busing Nazis to cities (here in Charlotte we saw the buses and there was a riot), it's gonna be hard separating themselves away from them from the public's view now that they are popular."

 

You also seem to be equating the presence of buses to a riot, so, do you mean the buses caused the riot?

Edited September 17, 2017 by smjjames

[Eumaios]

The mad dash to establish parity will help the Democrats, but not by a huge degree.  The idea that the Republicans or other mainstream conservative groups are bussing in nazis won't get traction with the bulk of the American people because most won't believe it.  True or not, there is a large percentage of the population that believes that left leaning groups bus in protestors to some events.  It should be easy to find evidence of bussing and if it is compelling, then it serves to bolster an argument.  Both Democrats and Republicans use carpooling and bussing to get voters to the polls.  There is evidence that some protestors are paid by liberal groups at some events.  Left leaning and liberal and conservative and the like might be imprecise, but it's what we've got.

 

Since the Democrats did not state strong opinions against antifa early on and in fact since quite a number of Democrats talk in terms of 'resistance,' it isn't suprising that a number of Americans associate them with antifa.  Now that some prominent Democrats are speaking out against antifa, it will certainly help them nationally and in statewide elections.

 

This isn't really about arguing that antifa is good or bad.  It's about figuring out what will come of the movement and how it will impact politics.  I'll disclaim that I'm an American, a Republican, and would fit very easily into the 'white' category.  So now people know my particular slant, I won't lie and I won't try to be misleading in my analysis.  It wouldn't matter if I did.  My statements tend to be forward looking and there isn't enough traffic in this board for me to use underhanded arguments to promote any real agenda.  I'm going to say what I think will happen from all this and either it will or won't.  If it does, then I have some grounds for what I suggest.  If it doesn't, then I won't.  As time progresses, I'll either be proved right or wrong more often and people can assess my arguments.

[smjjames]

I don't actually think conservatives bussed the nazis into Charlottesville, a lot of them certainly bussed themselves into Charlottesville. I was just holding up a mirror to the accusation to show how silly it sounds when flipped on it's head.

 

As for the bussing and carpooling people to the polls, that isn't illegal or shady (unless you've got solid evidence of misdeeds), despite what some people may think.

[Eumaios]

My point is that bussing and of itself isn't bad.  If a group wants to bus people to a protest site, that's not bad unless the group in question does something bad.

 

I'm more concerned about public perception and how it impacts the election.  That's something with more concrete measures than folks dredging up webpages that other folks discount out of hand.  I probably won't be here next November, but wherever I am, I'll make sure to own my predictions.  Closer to the election, around January or February, I'll make predictions on my social media, which makes it impossible to get out of them.  Spin maybe, but you can't entirely get away from them.

[smjjames]

Doubt it'd affect the election much since those that believe such accusations are likely to vote Republican anyway. It'd be a concern if Trump decides to harp on about rigged polls because he's potentially invalidating BOTH parties elections.

 

It'd actually be more of a concern in 2020 because there would be more focus on one race and not 100s of others and a handfull of particularily up-in-the-air seats.

Edited September 18, 2017 by smjjames

[Eumaios]

I think most things impact the margins.  The point is to scare your side into voting and convince the other side its guy is either not worthy of the effort or simply can't win no matter what.

 

Antifa has already had an impact (or at least something) has had an impact on the fundraising for the ealier part of this year, but as the last presidential election demonstrated, having hundreds of millions more than the other party doesn't ensure victory.

[smjjames]

I think most things impact the margins.  The point is to scare your side into voting and convince the other side its guy is either not worthy of the effort or simply can't win no matter what.

 

Antifa has already had an impact (or at least something) has had an impact on the fundraising for the ealier part of this year, but as the last presidential election demonstrated, having hundreds of millions more than the other party doesn't ensure victory.

 

B-But Popular Vote!!!11!!!11!1 (lol, and I'm being silly there)

 

In all seriousness though, as you imply, having millions more than the other party doesn't matter if a good chunk of them decide to sit out the election