Dual Endurance Drain weapon Rogue?

[Lampros]

 

Ah, ok. That's a pretty huge Accuracy debuff though. And can Rangers do decent damage without the pet - relative to other bowmen I can use instead (e.g. Chanter, Cipher, or even Rogue)? My understanding was that a significant portion of the Ranger's DPS come from the pet.

 

10 Accuracy is fairly big, but in the mid to late game the only fights where your pet should be dying at tougher ones, and in those you should really cast every Accuracy buff available to you (as well as Deflection debuffs on your enemies), at which point that -10, whilst still bad, becomes much less of an issue.

 

And which pet is the most durable and the least micro-management-intensive?

 

 

To be honest there isn't all that much difference between the pets when it comes to durability. Antelopes and Bears have innate abilities that make them a little tankier (+7 to all defences for the Antelope and +2 Damage Reduction for the Bear) but they'll all be roughly equivalent at tanking (pretty good off-tanks, but definitely not main tank material).

 

 

Antelopes being so tanky - sounds so counter-intuitive!

 

In fact, why are they even a ranger (a sort of hunter?) pets? They are the hunted!

[draego]

Ye i find the wolf to be sturdy enough. You just need to pick your spots. Let the pet hit soft targets, flanking, or hold back several ticks while your frontline companions engage. Or just go full ranger melee and flank with both pet and ranger fun stuff if you like lots of micromanagement. The melee version comes around once you get stunning shots which works in melee. 

[Blades of Vanatar]

Bears are sturdiest imo. As long as the pet is alive your Ranger will pour damage into the enemy. I always add DR to my bear early on. Love to park my moon wells next to my pet.

[firkraag888]

Rangers won't dish out damage like a rogue.

 

A dual weilding rogue glass cannon optimized for crits, sneaks and death blows will severely out damage a ranger.

[Boeroer]

No, he will not.

 

Because of:

 

- the ranger doesn't need to run to his target and thus doesn't lose dps while moving (or doing Shadow Step or Escape)
- will have +100% "real" damage (not base! - this is way better than Deathblows) via Twinned Arrows all the time without the need for afflictions
- he will have perma-stun which leads to a lot of crits as well (usually rangers have the same hit/crit ratio as rogues by the end of the game )
- he will have Driving Flight (2 * 60% "real" - not base - damage with Twinned Arrows)
- he will have +10 accuracy and +20% damage via Stalker's Link and Stalker's Torc (a bit like Reckless Assault but without drawbacks)

- he will not get disabled or killed that often because he doesn't have to run around and get near melees and/or catch disengagement attacks in order to reach the enemies.

And on top of that comes the pet that can crit around 80-100 dmg if you can utilize Predator's Sense (which you should - easy with Wounding Shot or Env. Strike or Persistence).

 

A rogue most of the time can't dish out that much damage in a given time because he simply can't stack that many multipliying damage bonuses. He only has additive ones. Even with Sneak + Deathblows he's not close. He has the advantage of attack speed if the ranger has not yet reached 0 recovery, but the fact that he has to move a lot in order to apply damage negates this advantage.

I presume you never played a high level ranger?

Edited September 10, 2017 by Boeroer

[draego]

No, he will not.

 

Because of:

 

- the ranger doesn't need to run to his target and thus doesn't lose dps while moving (or doing Shadow Step or Escape)

- will have +100% "real" damage (not base! - this is way better than Deathblows) via Twinned Arrows all the time without the need for afflictions

- he will have perma-stun which leads to a lot of crits as well (usually rangers have the same hit/crit ratio as rogues by the end of the game )

- he will have Driving Flight (2 * 60% "real" - not base - damage with Twinned Arrows)

- he will have +10 accuracy and +20% damage via Stalker's Link and Stalker's Torc (a bit like Reckless Assault but without drawbacks)

- he will not get disabled or killed that often because he doesn't have to run around and get near melees and/or catch disengagement attacks in order to reach the enemies.

 

And on top of that comes the pet that can crit around 80-100 dmg if you can utilize Predator's Sense (which you should - easy with Wounding Shot or Env. Strike or Persistence).

 

A rogue most of the time can't dish out that much damage in a given time because he simply can't stack that many multipliying damage bonuses. He only has additive ones. Even with Sneak + Deathblows he's not close. He has the advantage of attack speed if the ranger has not yet reached 0 recovery, but the fact that he has to move a lot in order to apply damage negates this advantage.

 

I presume you never played a high level ranger?

 

Ye the ranged ranger is a beast. Definitely a mistake by obsidian to not include pet damage in rangers overall damage numbers. It seems to give people a false since of true damage compared to other classes especially the rogue who is in direct competition for single target dps. 

Edited September 10, 2017 by draego

[Lampros]

 

No, he will not.

 

Because of:

 

- the ranger doesn't need to run to his target and thus doesn't lose dps while moving (or doing Shadow Step or Escape)

- will have +100% "real" damage (not base! - this is way better than Deathblows) via Twinned Arrows all the time without the need for afflictions

- he will have perma-stun which leads to a lot of crits as well (usually rangers have the same hit/crit ratio as rogues by the end of the game )

- he will have Driving Flight (2 * 60% "real" - not base - damage with Twinned Arrows)

- he will have +10 accuracy and +20% damage via Stalker's Link and Stalker's Torc (a bit like Reckless Assault but without drawbacks)

- he will not get disabled or killed that often because he doesn't have to run around and get near melees and/or catch disengagement attacks in order to reach the enemies.

 

And on top of that comes the pet that can crit around 80-100 dmg if you can utilize Predator's Sense (which you should - easy with Wounding Shot or Env. Strike or Persistence).

 

A rogue most of the time can't dish out that much damage in a given time because he simply can't stack that many multipliying damage bonuses. He only has additive ones. Even with Sneak + Deathblows he's not close. He has the advantage of attack speed if the ranger has not yet reached 0 recovery, but the fact that he has to move a lot in order to apply damage negates this advantage.

 

I presume you never played a high level ranger?

 

Ye the ranged ranger is a beast. Definitely a mistake by obsidian to not include pet damage in rangers overall damage numbers. It seems to give people a false since of true damage compared to other classes especially the rogue who is in direct competition for single target dps. 

 

 

As well as not including Chanter Phrases in the damage calculation - or any DoTs for that matter.

[firkraag888]

No, he will not.

 

Because of:

 

- the ranger doesn't need to run to his target and thus doesn't lose dps while moving (or doing Shadow Step or Escape)

- will have +100% "real" damage (not base! - this is way better than Deathblows) via Twinned Arrows all the time without the need for afflictions

- he will have perma-stun which leads to a lot of crits as well (usually rangers have the same hit/crit ratio as rogues by the end of the game )

- he will have Driving Flight (2 * 60% "real" - not base - damage with Twinned Arrows)

- he will have +10 accuracy and +20% damage via Stalker's Link and Stalker's Torc (a bit like Reckless Assault but without drawbacks)

- he will not get disabled or killed that often because he doesn't have to run around and get near melees and/or catch disengagement attacks in order to reach the enemies.

And on top of that comes the pet that can crit around 80-100 dmg if you can utilize Predator's Sense (which you should - easy with Wounding Shot or Env. Strike or Persistence).

 

A rogue most of the time can't dish out that much damage in a given time because he simply can't stack that many multipliying damage bonuses. He only has additive ones. Even with Sneak + Deathblows he's not close. He has the advantage of attack speed if the ranger has not yet reached 0 recovery, but the fact that he has to move a lot in order to apply damage negates this advantage.

I presume you never played a high level ranger?

You are making a lot of assumptions there. You have just painted rangers in a shining light and rogues in a dark one because you don't like rogues. just like I don't like barbs or monks.

 

1. A rogue doesn't always have to walk over to enemies sometimes they come to them.

2. 100% real damage via twin arrows. Guess what rogues dual wield. Dual weilding fully enchanted and durganized butternut x2 deals more damage then any arrow can.

3. He will have perma stun? Oh really? I thought it was called stunning shots that can stun based on failed save.

4.driving flight is driving flight. Real not base who cares what the hell are you on about

5. Stalkers link gives flanked. If the pet makes it to the front line and if the pet doesn't die within 2 seconds

6.the ranger will not get disabled or killed? You have an immortal ranger?

 

Rogues have pros and cons rangers have pros and cons. One thing I am certain of is that rangers DO not out damage rogues

Edited September 11, 2017 by firkraag888

[JerekKruger]

1. A rogue doesn't always have to walk over to enemies sometimes they come to them.

 

That doesn't really change the argument. Whether the enemy walks to the rogue, the rogue walks to the enemy, or both, it takes time. That's time the Rogue isn't attacking and, hence, doing damage.

 

2. 100% real damage via twin arrows. Guess what rogues dual wield. Dual weilding fully enchanted and durganized butternut x2 deals more damage then any arrow can.

 

Against a single target sure. Against two I'd be less certain. Against four (with driving flight) I'd be very surprised.

 

4.driving flight is driving flight. Real not base who cares what the hell are you on about

 

Anyone who actually cares about maximising damage cares about the difference between real and base damage as it's quite significant.

 

5. Stalkers link gives flanked. If the pet makes it to the front line and if the pet doesn't die within 2 seconds

 

Not any more it doesn't. It gives +10 Accuracy whenever the Ranger attacks an enemy already engaged by their animal companion. There's nothing stopping the enemy also being flanked for -10 Deflection.

 

As for the pet dying within 2 seconds hardly. With Resilient Companion the pet has DR 27 (29 for a Bear) against all sources at level 16, Legendary Plate Armour has DR 20. Pets aren't going to compare to a Paladin built for tanking obviously, but their job isn't to tank the big heavy hitting enemies. They're plenty resilient enough for their actual job.

 

6.the ranger will not get disabled or killed? You have an immortal ranger?

 

Did you read Boeroer's actual point 6? Because you're not responding to it. 

 

One thing I am certain of is that rangers DO not out damage rogues

 

One thing I'm certain about is that Boeroer knows this game like few others, and whilst he is occasionally wrong it's rare.

Edited September 11, 2017 by JerekKruger

[firkraag888]

Wow. I got a headache after trying to read that.

[Boeroer]

At the end of the game the ranger does more damage than a rogue (just a rough calculation against 0 DR with 20 MIG/DEX and 50/50 hit/crit):

 

The Rain of Godhag Field:

• Base damage: 13‑20 (average 16,5 )
• Stalker's Link: +20% base damage
• Apprentice's Sneak Attack: +15% base damage
• Legendary Enchantment: +55% base damage
• MIG 20: +30% base damage
• crits with Merciless Hand and Dungeon Delver: +90% base damage
• resulting hit damage: 36+9 lash, crit: 68+17 lash per arrow
• Twinned Arrows: hit: 45*2 = 90, crit: 85 * 2 =170
• Driving Flight: I will leave this aside for now
• ~40 frames per attack with DEX 20 and 0 recovery
• in 500 frames you will deal 1125 hit damage or 2125 crit damage
• if hit/crit is 50:50 you will deal around 1625 damage against 0 DR
• on top come the pet and Driving Flight 

Dual Bittercut:

• Base damage: 11-16 (average 13,5 )
• sharp: +20% base damage
• Spirit of Decay: +20% base damage
• Reckless Assault: +20% base damage
• Sneak Attack: +50% base damage
• Deathblows: +100% base damage
• Legendary Enchantment: +55% base damage
• MIG 20: +30% base damage
• crits with Merciless Hand and Dungeon Delver: +90% base damage
• resulting physical hit damage: 53 + 16 lash , crit: 65 + 20 lash  per swing
• ~23 frames per attack with DEX 20 and 0 recovery
• in 500 frames you will deal 1518 hit damage or 1870 crit damage
• if hit/crit is 50:50 you will deal 1694 damage against 0 DR

You see that the damage output is nearly the same without Driving Flight and without the pet's damage. I assumed that the ranger only has a 25% lash and the rogue a 30% lash by the way. This calculation is already in favour of the rogue because I assumed that there are always two afflictions on the target. I assumed that he can attack without pause/without moving, too.

I left aside armor penalties and DR just to show the direction this is going.

 

So one can safely assume further that the ranger is the better damage dealer once he has Stunning Shots, Driving Flight and Twinned Arrows.

 

But the advantage of the dual wielding rogue over a bow ranger is that he starts with Sneak Attack and higher attack speed - also and gets Deathblows at lvl 11. While the best abilites of the (bow) ranger come at lvl  7, 11 and 13. So for a good part of the game the rogue will be able to deal a bit more dps if things run smoothly (affliction setup, not getting knocked out and so on).

 

However my point was to show that the general statement

 

Rangers won't dish out damage like a rogue.

A dual weilding rogue glass cannon optimized for crits, sneaks and death blows will severely out damage a ranger.

is not true.

 

I like rogues over rangers by the way. But that doesn't influence their performance.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Boeroer

[bigwillystyle]

Good to see that twelve year olds are playing this game as well.  Bodes well for the future of isometric RPGs.

[firkraag888]

@boerer

 

You haven't taken into consideration that rogue consistently crits. With his super high accuracey , the highest in the game with the right talents, and his crit increasing talents. A rogue will crit about 40% of the time then sneaks and deaths get applied above that also.

[Boeroer]

I have. But it's hard to tell.

 

As I said, rangers and rogues usually end up with the same hit/crit ratio in the end - mainly because of Stunning Shots I guess.

 

You might not know that Stunning Shots causes stun on hit(!) and crit. This leads to perma-stun (with ok INT and attack speed) as soon as the pet engages and that leads to a lot of crits from ranger and pet alike.

 

Rangers start with the same ACC as rogues by the way.

 

But yeah, hard to tell. I would need to dig out several old saves with high level rangers and rogues and compare the hits and crits.

 

I don't think this can outweigh the pet's damage, Driving Flight's damage and the dps loss from movement though.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Boeroer

[Blades of Vanatar]

I have. But it's hard to tell.

 

As I said, rangers and rogues usually end up with the same hit/crit ratio in the end - mainly because of Stunning Shots I guess.

 

You might not know that Stunning Shots causes stun on hit(!) and crit. This leads to perma-stun (with ok INT and attack speed) as soon as the pet engages and that leads to a lot of crits from ranger and pet alike.

 

Rangers start with the same ACC as rogues by the way.

 

But yeah, hard to tell. I would need to dig out several old saves with high level rangers and rogues and compare the hits and crits.

 

I don't think this can outweigh the pet's damage, Driving Flight's damage and the dps loss from movement though.

Don't forget all of the time the Rogue spends unconscious in the early game. If you tank him up early his DPS drops off. Ranger will always be firing from the get go while their pet is dishing out damage as well.

 

I have created customized parties with multiple Rangers and others with multiple Rogues. The Ranger brigade absolutely dominates the game. My fav was 3 Rangers with Bears, 2 Druids, 1 Barb.

 

The Rogues struggled a bit against the bounties/bosses.

[Kaylon]

A few comments about ranger vs rogue damage potential. If we don't consider the pet, then a ranger with Twinned Arrows and a rogue with death blows do similar ranged damage (by the way Persistence gives always the best ranged dps and if durganized, in combination with the Gauntlets of Swiftness and a potion of alacrity you have nearly 0% recovery). While the ranger shots twice he also faces twice the DR and in the end the damage is similar with what the rogue does with deatblows.

 

Now, for melee, the highest dps is done by a Tidefall rogue (durganized, Gauntlets of Swiftness, potion of alacrity) with death blows. The rogue attacks as fast as the ranger but has 36% higher base damage and much higher damage bonuses/accuracy (than his ranged version) - all these make his dps far superior to what a ranger can do. Of course he has to move to do the damage (unlike the ranger) and that's why the melee damage should always be superior to the ranged damage...

 

The pet has very high damage potential if you pick his offensive talents but his attacks are slow, he has low accuracy and defenses which means his damage isn't very reliable (he misses often, can be disabled/killed easily). In a perfect world however I'm expecting Persistence ranger + pet = Tidefall rogue with death blows.

[firkraag888]

I have. But it's hard to tell.

 

As I said, rangers and rogues usually end up with the same hit/crit ratio in the end - mainly because of Stunning Shots I guess.

 

You might not know that Stunning Shots causes stun on hit(!) and crit. This leads to perma-stun (with ok INT and attack speed) as soon as the pet engages and that leads to a lot of crits from ranger and pet alike.

 

Rangers start with the same ACC as rogues by the way.

 

But yeah, hard to tell. I would need to dig out several old saves with high level rangers and rogues and compare the hits and crits.

 

I don't think this can outweigh the pet's damage, Driving Flight's damage and the dps loss from movement though.

no you haven't. there are two talents the rogue can pick that the ranger cant that increase hit-crit ratio by 25%

[Boeroer]

The pet has very high damage potential if you pick his offensive talents but his attacks are slow, he has low accuracy and defenses which means his damage isn't very reliable (he misses often, can be disabled/killed easily). In a perfect world however I'm expecting Persistence ranger + pet = Tidefall rogue with death blows.

It's hard to miss for the pet once the target is stunned and you have Stalker's Link... And if you take Persistence it's 100% Predator's Sense.

Concerning "getting killed": let's leave this out of the discussion because then we'd also have to guesstimate how often the rogue gets knocked out.

Furthermore we assume that there's two afflictions all the time so that the rogue can have his Deathblows for 100% of the fight. If this is the case for the ranger, too then it's very hard to miss even for a blind rascal as pet.

 

Let's not forget that firkraag888 stated that a dual wielding rogue will "severely outdamage" a ranger. We first would have to convince him that Tidefall is the no. 1 dps choice...

 

Dirty Fighting + Vicious Fighting do +20% hit to crit by the way, not 25%.

 

Once you have a very high crit rate they are less powerful. If you have a hit/crit ratio of 50:50 and do 100 attacks (no misses, no grazes) then only 10 of your attacks will get converted. The more you crit the less this conversion will get triggered.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

the rogue will gave a higher base accuracy then a ranger due to reckless assault that will also contribute to more crits. So the higher base and dirty fighting + viscous does make a noticeable difference.

[Boeroer]

Did you understand what I was posting above? Conversion gets less and less effective the higher your accuracy and therefore your natural crit rate is.

 

Besides that: rangers start with 30 as do rogues. Rangers get Stalker's Link, rogues get Reckless Assault. The difference is 10 accuracy. Now the rogue gets conversion while the ranger and his pet will attack a perma-stunned target. Do you really think that the crit rate of both will be so much different? And that this will let the rogue severely outdamage the ranger and his pet?

Edited September 12, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

again your basing all that on assumptions. Stalkers link...blah....you have to coordinate your squishy pet to make that work.........perma stun?.......it stuns on a hit or crit and they get a save vs fortitude on top of that

 

and yes trust me the extra 8 accuracy plus the 20% hit to crit increase for rogues is extremely good even at higher levels. I don't no what you are trying to achieve by attempting to discredit it. every ability diminishes returns if you look at it the way you are tying to sell it.  As you get to higher levels enemies get a higher deflection aswell remember? you obviously forgot about that

Edited September 12, 2017 by firkraag888

[Blades of Vanatar]

Plus the Ranger's Accuracy will bumped up by Marksman and most likely Wood Elf racial ability. That about evens the Accuracy score, no?

[firkraag888]

ok if you want to take race selection into it the rogue is a hearth orlan with another 10% hit to crit. No?

[Kaylon]

The accuracy is basically the same for both. The ranger has Distant Advantage + Marksman which will compensate the loss from Twinned Arrows; then it's Stalker's Link vs Reckless Assault. 

[Boeroer]

again your basing all that on assumptions.

Yes, while you played high lvl rangers and rogues a couple of times - and then provide us with some calculations, statistics and good examples...

 

Sure - the enemies will have higher deflection. But your accuracy will grow, too. At the end of the game the difference between ACC to deflection gets bigger and bigger towards ACC. Crits are more common in the late game than in he early game. Grazes and misses are less likely. If the ranger can stun once it's perma-stun (no talk about dragons please).

 

I would also argue that the pet will hold out longer than the "glass cannon" melee rogue you advertised. In case both go down the ranger still does decent damage on his own while the rogue does 0. But as I said: we should leave dying aside (which the rogue is an expert in) because it makes things even more complicated.

 

So - as others also pointed out the accuracy and crit rate (Dirty/Vicious Fighting vs Stunning Shots) will be roughly the same. Damage of bow and dual wielding melee is comparable as my example above shows. The rogue is a bit better - if he's facing double-afflicted targets all the time and doesn't have to move a lot.

 

Now the pet's damage and Driving Flight get added to the damage comparison - and you still want to stick to the statement that a melee dw rogue will severely outdamage a ranger? How does he do it?

Edited September 12, 2017 by Boeroer