Politics - Episode 9: The Lurking Fear

[Chilloutman]

 

don't get it, Ben stated that Hitler catered to working class, isn't it root of communism, I mean it was working class here, working class there through communist era in my country.

He did, he later purged the social democratic and socialist elements to cater to industrialists. Frankly Hitler quotes are often contradictory with other quotes the best way to gauge him is by his actions which was privitization and union busting.

 

thats not completely true, there still was 'planned economy' state still decided what will be manufactured, where, when and whom, they just let those industries in hands of those loyal to regime. Don't get fooled, same was for communists. they can't care about 'workers' less

[Ben No.3]

 

 

don't get it, Ben stated that Hitler catered to working class, isn't it root of communism, I mean it was working class here, working class there through communist era in my country.

He did, he later purged the social democratic and socialist elements to cater to industrialists. Frankly Hitler quotes are often contradictory with other quotes the best way to gauge him is by his actions which was privitization and union busting.

 

thats not completely true, there still was 'planned economy' state still decided what will be manufactured, where, when and whom, they just let those industries in hands of those loyal to regime. Don't get fooled, same was for communists. they can't care about 'workers' less

 

I'd say it's debatable wether every communist leader ever truly was putting on a show. But lets assume so. Then wouldn't taht be the same thing? At some point, either "communist" will only be the name they give themselves, or "communist" means a state controlled industry; that is according to you.

 

It is true that Nazi Germany had vast power over the german economy, but in pre war times, it was a long shot away from a soviet-style command economy. During war times, I don't knw of any country that doesn't become a command economy at least partially. I mean, following your definition of "communist", the US was a communist nation during the wolrd wars.

[Chilloutman]

well there was never Nazi state which was not in war or in preparation for war so its hard to compare

[Wrath of Dagon]

Yo, Lenin also allowed capitalism when he had to, sometimes you have to be pragmatic.

 

I remember Trotsky, and I remember Stalin. Under Stalin and in communist dictatorships in general, people whom the state dislikes will be persecuted, regardless of wether they were communists or not. Nazi Germany perseczed communists for being communists. Difference.

Because communists were opposed to hitler since they were internationalists, i.e.supported the Soviet Union. It's true hitler also equated Bolsheviks with the Jews and thus treated both the same, but that's another story.

I'm quite interested what you mean when you say that "it takes fascism to get there" though. Are you referring to the term "dictatorship of the proletariat"? We can have that discussion...

That's exactly what I mean. We know what "dictatorship of the proletariat" looks like. We also know what ANTIFA looks like.

 

As for Berkley, that was wrong. As for Charlottesville, wouldn't have happened without the right. Did the left want it? Maybe in the sense that many left leaning people wanted violent right wingers to expose themselves. But I doubt that the number of scoialists who were wishing to get run over by a car is particularily high.

No they actually wanted the riots. The people who got run over were apparently in a separate march, not the riots.

[213374U]

The "nazis were really commies" nonsense was laughed out of the last thread it appeared in. Ah, isn't selective memory a beautiful thing?

 

I swear, if some of those self-styled pundits did as much actual gymnastics as they do mental gymnastics they'd have no competition at the ****ing olympics.

[Ben No.3]

Ok WoD, lets go there.

 

The term dictatorship of the proletariat refers to the working class as a whole gaining vast political powers. One does not expropriate anyoe without stomping over certain rights, hence the term "dictatorship". But it was a term frequently used by socialists who were democratic in the sense that they were opposed to the idea of Autocracy. And even anarchists like Bakunin used the term "dictatorship" to describe certain anarchist methods. 

 

The truth is simply that the meaning of "dictatorship of the proletariat" was heavilychanged by actual communist dictatorships. But that doesn't mean that the term originally was intended to mean an actual dictatorship as we tend to think of it.

[smjjames]

The "nazis were really commies" nonsense was laughed out of the last thread it appeared in. Ah, isn't selective memory a beautiful thing?

 

I swear, if some of those self-styled pundits did as much actual gymnastics as they do mental gymnastics they'd have no competition at the ****ing olympics.

 

How did you get to that? I don't see any archive section anywhere and it's not visible on the way-off-topic section either.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Ok WoD, lets go there.

 

The term dictatorship of the proletariat refers to the working class as a whole gaining vast political powers. One does not expropriate anyoe without stomping over certain rights, hence the term "dictatorship". But it was a term frequently used by socialists who were democratic in the sense that they were opposed to the idea of Autocracy. And even anarchists like Bakunin used the term "dictatorship" to describe certain anarchist methods. 

 

The truth is simply that the meaning of "dictatorship of the proletariat" was heavilychanged by actual communist dictatorships. But that doesn't mean that the term originally was intended to mean an actual dictatorship as we tend to think of it.

I don't care about your theories, what I care about is actual historical fact.

[Ben No.3]

 

Ok WoD, lets go there.

 

The term dictatorship of the proletariat refers to the working class as a whole gaining vast political powers. One does not expropriate anyoe without stomping over certain rights, hence the term "dictatorship". But it was a term frequently used by socialists who were democratic in the sense that they were opposed to the idea of Autocracy. And even anarchists like Bakunin used the term "dictatorship" to describe certain anarchist methods. 

 

The truth is simply that the meaning of "dictatorship of the proletariat" was heavilychanged by actual communist dictatorships. But that doesn't mean that the term originally was intended to mean an actual dictatorship as we tend to think of it.

I don't care about your theories, what I care about is actual historical fact.

 

We are discussing Terminology WoD. Terminology is nothing BUT theory. You said the the TERM "dictatorship of the proletariat" MEANT a fascist-style dictatorship, and I pointed out what I believed to be a mistake.

[Malcador]

 

The "nazis were really commies" nonsense was laughed out of the last thread it appeared in. Ah, isn't selective memory a beautiful thing?

 

I swear, if some of those self-styled pundits did as much actual gymnastics as they do mental gymnastics they'd have no competition at the ****ing olympics.

How did you get to that? I don't see any archive section anywhere and it's not visible on the way-off-topic section either.

Use Google with the site: option, I would guess.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Ok WoD, lets go there. The term dictatorship of the proletariat refers to the working class as a whole gaining vast political powers. One does not expropriate anyoe without stomping over certain rights, hence the term "dictatorship". But it was a term frequently used by socialists who were democratic in the sense that they were opposed to the idea of Autocracy. And even anarchists like Bakunin used the term "dictatorship" to describe certain anarchist methods.  The truth is simply that the meaning of "dictatorship of the proletariat" was heavilychanged by actual communist dictatorships. But that doesn't mean that the term originally was intended to mean an actual dictatorship as we tend to think of it.

I don't care about your theories, what I care about is actual historical fact.

Except when it comes to what the nazis actually did as opposed to some **** Hitler said.

[213374U]

 

The "nazis were really commies" nonsense was laughed out of the last thread it appeared in. Ah, isn't selective memory a beautiful thing?

 

I swear, if some of those self-styled pundits did as much actual gymnastics as they do mental gymnastics they'd have no competition at the ****ing olympics.

 

How did you get to that? I don't see any archive section anywhere and it's not visible on the way-off-topic section either.

 

Advanced search by words (socialism), find author (Wrath of Dagon), show as posts. You can also change the forum filters to show all threads and not just from the last 30 days, under the "Custom" tab.

 

I don't use Google because I'm 50% cranky old man and 50% hipster.

[Wrath of Dagon]

We are discussing Terminology WoD. Terminology is nothing BUT theory. You said the the TERM "dictatorship of the proletariat" MEANT a fascist-style dictatorship, and I pointed out what I believed to be a mistake.

No, you're discussing terminology. You've entirely misinterpreted what I said.

 

The historical facts of the nazi state was that it was totalitarian; with the government controlling all industry even if they didn't formally own it as in the SU.

 

Edit: And oh, btw: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/08/15/report-splc-charlottesville-racist-former-occupy-activist-obama-supporter-jason-kessler/

Edited August 15, 2017 by Wrath of Dagon

[Hurlshort]

 

Edit: And oh, btw: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/08/15/report-splc-charlottesville-racist-former-occupy-activist-obama-supporter-jason-kessler/

 

 

Extremists gonna extreme.

[Wrath of Dagon]

No story is too big to be ignored if it doesn't fit the narrative: http://www.salon.com/2017/08/15/what-if-the-dnc-russian-hack-was-really-a-leak-after-all-a-new-report-raises-questions-media-and-democrats-would-rather-ignore/

[smjjames]

No story is too big to be ignored if it doesn't fit the narrative: http://www.salon.com/2017/08/15/what-if-the-dnc-russian-hack-was-really-a-leak-after-all-a-new-report-raises-questions-media-and-democrats-would-rather-ignore/

 

I've seen a few stories on that. Should be something to look into or at least check out if it's credible.

 

Of course though, there are so many rumors and false stories revolving around the DNC hack that it'd be better left to the pros to investugate rather than armchair investigators.

[Malcador]

 

Edit: And oh, btw: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/08/15/report-splc-charlottesville-racist-former-occupy-activist-obama-supporter-jason-kessler/

 

Extremists gonna extreme.

So Obama IS to blame for racism.

[Volourn]

Considering he has NEVER once even  named BLM as the racist organization as they are and has made multiple excuses for their violent, murderous, hateful, insidious behavior. BLM mass murdered   multiple cops, they shot a black mother for giggles, they chant death to whitey 9racist0, death to piggy repeatedly while amrching, they rob, steal,, menace, and violently assault innocents. But, Obama supports them 100%. So, while I don't believe is responsible for racism 9racism has been around well before Obama) but he certainly is a proven racist as evidenced by his hypocrisy.

[Malcador]

Not sure BLM should take blame for the Dallas cops getting killed. Shooter seemed to be more into Panthers or NoI.

[Hurlshort]

BLM should definitely do more to distance themselves from extremism, but their message is pretty dang tame compared to Neo-nazis and the KKK.

 

Here is a look at what they say they stand for: http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/

 

As I said, not exactly crazy stuff. Now when that message gets overridden by violence and vandalism, they need to respond better. Just like I want to see Trump respond better.

[injurai]

Black Lives Matter is both an organization and a grassroots movement. It has official and unofficial chapters. It has people claiming actions on behalf of the movement. It was not founded to organize racism or black supremacy. It's members or independent actors stand for so many different things that all together it stands for very little. What it does stand against is police brutality and racism. BLM has made some serious errors that I think have really worked against their mission. At the same time, there are a lot of people that want to see their folly wholesale. So it leaves you wondering where some of their critics hearts actually lie.

 

BLM has a far less black nationalist bend than the Panthers did. Even with the Panthers no doubt they opposed serious issues that needed opposing. I don't think the Panthers are an out right hate group like the Nation of Islam, because the Panthers were quite the conglomerate. Unfortunately the fact that those radicals are out there means that no movement really stays amiable for long. But once a movement has started, those pushing for progress don't have much else of a vector to operate through.

 

BLM is both over-slandered and under-criticized, with too many people only trying to hit a single nail on the head at a time.

[smjjames]

I guess that's part of the problem that BLM has, it doesn't really have major leaders that everybody looks up to and, well, lead the group, like the civil rights movement did.

 

And yeah, the fringe parts doing violence and BLM not separating enough (in the eyes of some people) from those parts.

[Volourn]

"Here is a look at what they say they stand for:"

 

Actions speak louder than words. But words do speak loud as evidenced by their BLM chants when they are actively marching. How can  you call a group that literlaly chants '\death to whitey' as a non racist one? Come on. That is intellectual dishonesty.

 

 

"Not sure BLM should take blame for the Dallas cops getting killed. Shooter seemed to be more into Panthers or NoI."

 

Bullocks. The Panthers have been around for years. It is no coincidence that after BLm chants 'death to whitey' ''let's kill the piggies - especially the white one" while the Presidents supports them that that shooting occurred.

 

And, let's not forget about the shooting of the Asian cops as well.

 

BLM and their supporters are hateful racists no different than KKK, Antifa, 'Nazis', or the Panthers.

 

The proof is in the pudding.
 

•  

[ShadySands]

Switching gears, I saw a new batch of articles pushing rumors about a possible Bannon ouster. If true this time I'm not seeing a lot of upside for Trump

Edited August 15, 2017 by ShadySands

[smjjames]

The shooting of the two asian cops (actually, I think only one was asian?) in NYC wasn't even related to BLM. It was a random guy who just wanted to kill cops.