[HELP] Cipher MC POTD

[lokeegaming]

hey there guys, been trying playing POE over this past week and got hooked by Cipher!

 

was wondering if there's any tips to optimize the build, which primary role is heavy hitter. now i'm kinda confused at the very early game, which i maxed out PER to get high accuracy but the insane amount of defense at the starting map made my bow only have <40 hit chances..am i doing something wrong with stats distribution or is normal to have a lot of misses??

 

i thought since CIpher will heavily relied on Focus to dish damage, it's very important to get as much hits as possible

 

anyone can suggest or share their builds for DD Cipher??

 

ooh and btw, since i wanted a custom tanker, will it be alright to dump STR in favor of RES, END and DEX???will be using fighter..but other class for main dedicated tank would be superb...

 

thanks and cheers guys!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Ciphers have a lot of great AoE debuffs which signifigantly reduce defenses. I'd generally go for those over direct damage powers at low levels(mental binding is one I can think of off hand), then pick up the fantastic damage powers like disintegrate, silent scream, detonate, or amplified wave at higher levels.

 

I'm not an expert on tanks, but I believe Fighters are an inferior choice to Monks or Barbarians. I'm sure Boreror will come by and give you far better advice than I ever could.

[MaxQuest]

Regarding very early game of ranged cipher: you get Persistence asap (i.e. level 3-5) because it has damaging 3 enchant and thus ahead of the crafting curve. With talents Bitting Whip, Penetrating Shot and Draining Whip taken in that order; plus fire or corrode lash you will have the optimal rate of focus generation. Additionally you can start the fight with a shot from Kana's arquebuss (or any Blunderbuss yu find) and then quickly switch to Persistence.

 

As for early armor: either go for Durance's robe, Rindl Finery or any hide armor if shades do attack your cipher more than you would want, because hide has the armor efficiency bonus for pierce and frost.

 

 

P.S. Those 40% mean that you hit and crit 40% of the time.

Since PotD adds a flat bonus, it's normal to not expect/rely on crits in early game. Still through, you can blind or weaken -> paralyze the enemies for a huge deflection malus. Not to mention that with high Might and Penetrating Shots even if grazes are a dps loss compared to hits, the loss is is no longer *that* big.

Edited June 11, 2017 by MaxQuest

[lokeegaming]

Ciphers have a lot of great AoE debuffs which signifigantly reduce defenses. I'd generally go for those over direct damage powers at low levels(mental binding is one I can think of off hand), then pick up the fantastic damage powers like disintegrate, silent scream, detonate, or amplified wave at higher levels.

 

I'm not an expert on tanks, but I believe Fighters are an inferior choice to Monks or Barbarians. I'm sure Boreror will come by and give you far better advice than I ever could.

 

aaah okay then..maybe since i always uses soul shock and it does tons of damages i thought maybe this class were meant to be a damage dealer, i didn't think cipher has tons of AoE debuffs. i might looked into it later on

 

and since that's the case, can you recommend a good class for primary melee damage dealer??

 

 

Regarding very early game of ranged cipher: you get Persistence asap (i.e. level 3-5) because it has damaging 3 enchant and thus ahead of the crafting curve. With talents Bitting Whip, Penetrating Shot and Draining Whip taken in that order; plus fire or corrode lash you will have the optimal rate of focus generation. Additionally you can start the fight with a shot from Kana's arquebuss (or any Blunderbuss yu find) and then quickly switch to Persistence.

 

As for early armor: either go for Durance's robe, Rindl Finery or any hide armor if shades do attack your cipher more than you would want, because hide has the armor efficiency bonus for pierce and frost.

 

 

P.S. Those 40% mean that you hit and crit 40% of the time.

Since PotD adds a flat bonus, it's normal to not expect/rely on crits in early game. Still through, you can blind or weaken -> paralyze the enemies for a huge deflection malus. Not to mention that with high Might and Penetrating Shots even if grazes are a dps loss compared to hits, the loss is is no longer *that* big.

 

hmmm interesting path to take.does this mean, a chiper will be more optimized as a class if i used it towards debuffer/CC/support instead of main damage dealer?

 

if so, would you mind suggesting melee primary damage dealer? and should i min/maxed it or just keep it in moderation??

[MasterCipher]

I prefer to DPS and CC only when I have to or it's supremely advantageous. Ranged weapons have slower attack speed and recovery, but leading with high damage firearms or arbalests before closing melee is effective. Metrics clearing all maps up to Maerwald (except 2nd floor of Eothas temple) on POTD w/ hirelings. Priest and Chanter use ranged weapons and no armor, Cipher melee in no armor, others in heavy armor. Chanter DPS is somewhat inflated because I used to solo kite guls in Anslog's Compass. Dank spore cave was a lot easier than I thought it would be; hardest fight was Skuldr King. Rested 1 time to remove MC sickness and open up map to Caed Nua.

 

                    Lvl   Total Dmg    Dmg Taken     Holy Radiance     Chanter DOT

Cipher MC   3         4,426         107                  

Ranger        2         3,041          253

Stag             2         1,230         910

Chanter       2         2,784          132                                                  680

Paladin        2         3,136          324

Priest           2         1,905           39                   560

Monk           2         2,360          289

 

1 hand weapons for +14 acc at low levels

purchased jolt dagger proc for ranger

accumulate exceptional weapons, and overseer rings - +2 PER neck is also decent for Cipher

learn survival skill first for rest bonuses, with exception of mechanics for lockpicker/disarmer

 

Cipher (Aumua +1 weapon slot)

Mig 21

Dex 18

Con 3

Int 18

Per 15

Res 3

 

Talents

drain whip

bite whip  

 

Lvl 1 Powers

Antipathic Beam (off the chart damage if you take the time to position)

Mindwave (sometimes worth targeting your own party so the prone cone can disable dangerous enemies)

Confuse (stealth and start combat with this whenever you can because enemy force usually all attack the confused target)

 

Lvl 2 Powers

Mental Binding

Mind Blades (low single target damage, but is longest range Cipher DPS power, up to 6 targets, calls interrupt - all jump spells-powers have bug that stop jumps if it kills target)

Pyschovampire Shield (can cast on party before fight as a self buff at higher levels when you have 20 starting focus, debuffing an enemy in combat can also be useful - main point is +25 deflection makes AI more likely to attack others in your party so you can melee)

Edited June 11, 2017 by MasterCipher

[lokeegaming]

I prefer to DPS and CC only when I have to or it's supremely advantageous. Ranged weapons have slower attack speed and recovery, but leading with high damage firearms or arbalests before closing melee is effective. Metrics clearing all maps up to Maerwald (except 2nd floor of Eothas temple) on POTD w/ hirelings. Priest and Chanter use ranged weapons and no armor, Cipher melee in no armor, others in heavy armor. Chanter DPS is somewhat inflated because I used to solo kite guls in Anslog's Compass. Dank spore cave was a lot easier than I thought it would be; hardest fight was Skuldr King. Rested 1 time to remove MC sickness and open up map to Caed Nua.

 

                    Lvl   Total Dmg    Dmg Taken     Holy Radiance     Chanter DOT

Cipher MC   3         4,426         107                  

Ranger        2         3,041          253

Stag             2         1,230         910

Chanter       2         2,784          132                                                  680

Paladin        2         3,136          324

Priest           2         1,905           39                   560

Monk           2         2,360          289

 

1 hand weapons for +14 acc at low levels

purchased jolt dagger proc for ranger

accumulate exceptional weapons, and overseer rings - +2 PER neck is also decent for Cipher

learn survival skill first for rest bonuses, with exception of mechanics for lockpicker/disarmer

 

Cipher (Aumua +1 weapon slot)

Mig 21

Dex 18

Con 3

Int 18

Per 15

Res 3

 

Talents

drain whip

bite whip  

 

Lvl 1 Powers

Antipathic Beam (off the chart damage if you take the time to position)

Mindwave (sometimes worth targeting your own party so the prone cone can disable dangerous enemies)

Confuse (stealth and start combat with this whenever you can because enemy force usually all attack the confused target)

 

Lvl 2 Powers

Mental Binding

Mind Blades (low single target damage, but is longest range Cipher DPS power, up to 6 targets, calls interrupt - all jump spells-powers have bug that stop jumps if it kills target)

Pyschovampire Shield (can cast on party before fight as a self buff at higher levels when you have 20 starting focus, debuffing an enemy in combat can also be useful - main point is +25 deflection makes AI more likely to attack others in your party so you can melee)

 

i'm sorry..i was confused

 

if the situation is advantageous, go melee and the other way around. melee>range for faster focus gain

 

am i getting it right??

[MaxQuest]

hmmm interesting path to take.does this mean, a chiper will be more optimized as a class if i used it towards debuffer/CC/support instead of main damage dealer?

 

if so, would you mind suggesting melee primary damage dealer? and should i min/maxed it or just keep it in moderation??

Imo both are good. So far I MC'ed two dd ciphers: one ranged with warbow and another melee with dual sabres. Plus have tried GM and a warbow-cc hireling.

DD ciphers can easily top the total damage dealt, and I enjoyed them a lot. But I would take them if the team will also have a dedicated cc'er. That's why I usually play with 2 ciphers in party. In next run I will definitely take a ranged-dd-bow and melee-cc-estoc ciphers.

 

Regarding main-dd I would say it's a matter of personal preferrence. Would add through that it's nice to have 4 dd capable characters in party. Depending on what matchups you want to strenghen you can pick:

trash clearing dd: barbarian, monk

overall dd: cipher, blasting-wizard, druid

boss/bounty/emergency dd: priest

 

 

Regarding min-maxing, I folow the following points:

- if the character has AoE DoTs and will be used for damage dealing: max MIG and INT

- dont drop CON below 5 points on ranged and 8 points o melee characters

- dont drop RES below 7 points on melee characters, unless I can increase their concentration

Edited June 11, 2017 by MaxQuest

[lokeegaming]

 

hmmm interesting path to take.does this mean, a chiper will be more optimized as a class if i used it towards debuffer/CC/support instead of main damage dealer?

 

if so, would you mind suggesting melee primary damage dealer? and should i min/maxed it or just keep it in moderation??

Imo both are good. So far I MC'ed two dd ciphers: one ranged with warbow and another melee with dual sabres. Plus have tried GM and a warbow-cc hireling.

DD ciphers can easily top the total damage dealt, and I enjoyed them a lot. But I would take them if the team will also have a dedicated cc'er. That's why I usually play with 2 ciphers in party. In next run I will definitely take a ranged-dd-bow and melee-cc-estoc ciphers.

 

Regarding main-dd I would say it's a matter of personal preferrence. Would add through that it's nice to have 4 dd capable characters in party. Depending on what matchups you want to strenghen you can pick:

trash clearing dd: barbarian, monk

overall dd: cipher, blasting-wizard, druid

boss/bounty/emergency dd: priest

 

 

Regarding min-maxing, I folow the following points:

- if the character has AoE DoTs and will be used for damage dealing: max MIG and INT

- dont drop CON below 5 points on ranged and 8 points o melee characters

- dont drop RES below 7 points on melee characters, unless I can increase their concentration

 

 

awesome, thanks for the input! :D

 

btw, is there any reason for cipher range for DD and melee for CC?? or it's just preference??

 

EDIT: just created a new melee cipher max PER and somehow antipathetic field always misses..90% of encounters..while soul shock always hits. but the strange things is both has the same defense checker, Reflex

 

EDIT 1: stupid me...antipathetic field only damages enemies that CAUGHT between caster and target

Edited June 12, 2017 by lokeegaming

[MasterCipher]

if the situation is advantageous, go melee and the other way around. melee>range for faster focus gain

 

Sustainable melee dps and subsequently focus gain is greater for melee - slow reload ranged weapons are great for spike damage at start; you fire then weapon switch without waiting to reload, aka 1 pump chump or alpha.

 

IMO Stormcaller soulbound hunting bow is still a great ranged option if you prefer a play style where you don't have to weapon switch or move around to position as much. It has duel weapon damage, damage resistance debuff, and an AoE damage proc.

 

 

Antipathic beam damage foe or friend between you and enemy, but not the target or yourself. If you have multiple melees that can share the tank load, have them form a straight line so the enemies line up neatly in front of them and have you Cipher line up on the flank and target the furthest enemy, who you want to try to kill last so antipathic doesn't end early. As good as this beam is, the 30 focus beam has the highest total damage potential of any single ability in the game.

[lokeegaming]

if the situation is advantageous, go melee and the other way around. melee>range for faster focus gain

 

Sustainable melee dps and subsequently focus gain is greater for melee - slow reload ranged weapons are great for spike damage at start; you fire then weapon switch without waiting to reload, aka 1 pump chump or alpha.

 

IMO Stormcaller soulbound hunting bow is still a great ranged option if you prefer a play style where you don't have to weapon switch or move around to position as much. It has duel weapon damage, damage resistance debuff, and an AoE damage proc.

 

 

Antipathic beam damage foe or friend between you and enemy, but not the target or yourself. If you have multiple melees that can share the tank load, have them form a straight line so the enemies line up neatly in front of them and have you Cipher line up on the flank and target the furthest enemy, who you want to try to kill last so antipathic doesn't end early. As good as this beam is, the 30 focus beam has the highest total damage potential of any single ability in the game.

 

aye i just realized it when i re-read the description again..

 

gonna try stay away from melee at this playthrough or maybe have another cipher for CC

 

thanks man!

[Boeroer]

Antipathetic Field can be a reload trigger if the enemy you targeted moves unexpectedly and the beam hits your party. So watch out!

Ectopsychic Echo is lot safer to use since it's foe only.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

awesome, thanks for the input! :D

 

btw, is there any reason for cipher range for DD and melee for CC?? or it's just preference??

There are minor pros here and there.

For example melee dd has easier time in using detonate and antipathetic field. On the other hand ranged dd can quite often kill an enemy even before they have engaged; plus has higher DEX (as can get away with lower CON and RES) and feels a bit more responsive.

 

But the main reason I will go for a melee-cc is that a few cipher powers (specifically WoT, Eyestrike, Mental Binding) have unusually short recovery duration (at the cost of longer cast duration), and thus a in-plate cipher can cast them almost as fast as a naked one. Plus such cipher doesnt need maxed might. The difference in 0.3 damage coefficient might be big when base damage coef is 1.0, but with superb weapon, 2handed style, soul and bitting whip this cipher would generate just 10-15% less focus at 10 MIG than he would if he had same stats but 20 MIG. So these points could be put in DEX; and focus gain improved via faster attacking; also it would make easier cc'ing enemies that already started casting and cc'ing them before their spell fires.

Edited June 12, 2017 by MaxQuest

[lokeegaming]

Antipathetic Field can be a reload trigger if the enemy you targeted moves unexpectedly and the beam hits your party. So watch out!

 

Ectopsychic Echo is lot safer to use since it's for only.

 

 

yeaap...learned it the hard way 

 

haven't got to that level yet, i'm still trying to re-creating cipher MC to my liking hehehe

 

but from its description EE can be handy when there's a mobs were clustering tanks and melee..what's the base duration for the skill??

 

 

awesome, thanks for the input! :D

 

btw, is there any reason for cipher range for DD and melee for CC?? or it's just preference??

There are minor pros here and there.

For example melee dd has easier time in using detonate and antipathetic field. On the other hand ranged dd can quite often kill an enemy even before they have engaged; plus has higher DEX (as can get away with lower CON and RES) and feels a bit more responsive.

 

But the main reason I will go for a melee-cc is that a few cipher powers (specifically WoT, Eyestrike, Mental Binding) have unusually short recovery duration (at the cost of longer cast duration), and thus a in-plate cipher can cast them almost as fast as a naked one. Plus such cipher doesnt need maxed might. The difference in 0.3 damage coefficient might be big when base damage coef is 1.0, but with superb weapon, 2handed style, soul and bitting whip this cipher would generate just 10-15% less focus at 10 MIG than he would if he had same stats but 20 MIG. So these points could be put in DEX; and focus gain improved via faster attacking; also it would make easier cc'ing enemies that already started casting and cc'ing them before their spell fires.

 

 

iirc, estoc is two-handed weapon? would it be appropriate for melee cipher prioritize PER/INT/MIG or PER/MIG/INT ?? i thought maybe with above average damage output from estoc we can play around with WOT, Eyestrike and Mental Binding) to keep mobs in checked without having to worry about Focus...how am i doing??

[MaxQuest]

Yeap, estoc is a 2H weapon.

For a melee-cc I had a 9/9/18/17/17/8 boreal dwarf with BotEP in mind.

Edited June 12, 2017 by MaxQuest

[lokeegaming]

Yeap, estoc is a 2H weapon.

For a melee-cc I had a 9/9/18/17/17/8 boreal dwarf with BotEP in mind.

 

again...thanks for your shares good sir

 

will try to experiment further on!! :D

[MaxQuest]

Godspeed

[lokeegaming]

Godspeed

 

been thinking...if i create ranged with:

 

DEX - maxed

INT - maxed

PER - even with MIG

MIG - even with PER

CON & RES - min

 

i will surely miss quite a lot in early level yes? if so, should i go for a slow/very slow ranged weapon or average/fast will prevail in a prolonged battle??

[MasterCipher]

I've never played a Cipher with less than 15 PER, I prefer 15 PER to 18 PER as I prefer to max MIG and hit plenty in early POTD - otherwise your min/max spread is exactly what I use - even for melee cipher. It helps to carry a lvl 2 priest that can buff group accuracy +10 every encounter. Fine quality weapons (+4 accuracy) are available early game if you look for them. If you can land Prone, Paralyze, Stuck, or Blind, these significantly low enemy deflection and reflex. Even if you can't, nothing can resist flanking - just have 2 of your characters melee the same target from opposite sides to lower deflection by 10. If you have a level 3 paladin hireling (hire a pally as soon as you get to black hound) you can take a passive AoE aura that gives you +6 accuracy. I don't know if it states in game, but abilities enjoy a +1 to hit per character level that autoattacks do not. So if you are level 2 and cast Whisper of Treason, you get a +12 to hit (the in game description will only say +10). For ranged Cipher, wood elf is a terrific choice because they get +5 to hit with weapons and abilities to enemies 4m or farther from you, which will be the case much of the time.

Edited June 14, 2017 by MasterCipher

[superior987]

I'm currently using a 17/10/10/12/19/10 hearth orlan melee cipher. Still early on, but I do notice the occasional and frustrating ability miss. I maxed MIG for veterans recovery, but am wondering if I might be better served moving some into PER or DEX. Cast times feel glacial in any armor, which makes any misses hurt that much more.

[lokeegaming]

I've never played a Cipher with less than 15 PER, I prefer 15 PER to 18 PER as I prefer to max MIG and hit plenty in early POTD - otherwise your min/max spread is exactly what I use - even for melee cipher. It helps to carry a lvl 2 priest that can buff group accuracy +10 every encounter. Fine quality weapons (+4 accuracy) are available early game if you look for them. If you can land Prone, Paralyze, Stuck, or Blind, these significantly low enemy deflection and reflex. Even if you can't, nothing can resist flanking - just have 2 of your characters melee the same target from opposite sides to lower deflection by 10. If you have a level 3 paladin hireling (hire a pally as soon as you get to black hound) you can take a passive AoE aura that gives you +6 accuracy. I don't know if it states in game, but abilities enjoy a +1 to hit per character level that autoattacks do not. So if you are level 2 and cast Whisper of Treason, you get a +12 to hit (the in game description will only say +10). For ranged Cipher, wood elf is a terrific choice because they get +5 to hit with weapons and abilities to enemies 4m or farther from you, which will be the case much of the time.

 

currently using MC cipher ranged with eder, custom paladin, aloth and durance...somehow mobs keeps drooling over my cipher and aloth eventhough eder already using Defender. nevermind the one that's not currently engaged with eder, two of them that is currently engaged keeps pounding my cipher..my cipher was at least 5-6m away hahaha

 

wonder where i did wrong with aggro management

 

I'm currently using a 17/10/10/12/19/10 hearth orlan melee cipher. Still early on, but I do notice the occasional and frustrating ability miss. I maxed MIG for veterans recovery, but am wondering if I might be better served moving some into PER or DEX. Cast times feel glacial in any armor, which makes any misses hurt that much more.

 

recently i was plagued with mobs that are engaged with fighter with Defender activated

[Boeroer]

Tanking with one dedicated tank does not work in PoE. And why should the enemies attack your tank who can't deal damage while the real threat is in your back row?

 

You are doing nothing wrong. The game calculates the high priority targets and when your tank only tickles them then they will move on to your squishies. It doesn't matter that they are engaged by the fighter. Defender is totally useless if you don't combine it with high damage per hit or Overbearing Guard.

 

The solution is to use more melee frontliners, to use chokepoints or to put on heavier armor. This may lead to less DPS or slower casting, but a dead character doesn't cast at all.

Another thing is to use CC. A low level cipher can use Whisper oft Treason to turn an attacker right at the start of combat. This guy will normally get attacked immediately by his fellows because charm is a strong debuff which makes him a priority target. Same with Aloth and Chillfog: blinded enemies can't hit things and are really slow moving.

[lokeegaming]

Tanking with one dedicated tank does not work in PoE. And why should the enemies attack your tank who can't deal damage while the real threat is in your back row?

 

You are doing nothing wrong. The game calculates the high priority targets and when your tank only tickles them then they will move on to your squishies. It doesn't matter that they are engaged by the fighter. Defender is totally useless if you don't combine it with high damage per hit or Overbearing Guard.

 

The solution is to use more melee frontliners, to use chokepoints or to put on heavier armor. This may lead to less DPS or slower casting, but a dead character doesn't cast at all.

Another thing is to use CC. A low level cipher can use Whisper oft Treason to turn an attacker right at the start of combat. This guy will normally get attacked immediately by his fellows because charm is a strong debuff which makes him a priority target. Same with Aloth and Chillfog: blinded enemies can't hit things and are really slow moving.

 

aaaah i see now...

 

how about this:

 

Cipher range = MC balancing between damage and CC

2x Fighter = Custom dedicated tank with just enough pow to get proper attention

1 Barb = Custom DD (never used bard, so need to figure out how to play with ti)

1 Priest range = Custom (heals/buff/debuff)

1 Ranger range = Custom more DD with wolf pet

 

was thinking about getting wizard for nuker, but i'm still confused on who to properly played it. since grimoire only replenish after rests, and with no supplies left i might need to go back to the in.

[MaxQuest]

been thinking...if i create ranged with:

 

DEX - maxed

INT - maxed

PER - even with MIG

MIG - even with PER

CON & RES - min

That's basically 18/3/18/18/18/3.

Btw, unless you really want to max Disintegration damage, 18/7/18/16/16/3 might be a bit more comfortable to play with, as you risk less being one-shot with stuff like Talons' Reach, Ooze Spit, Icycle Storm (or w/e that frost blast is called), and so on.

 

i will surely miss quite a lot in early level yes? if so, should i go for a slow/very slow ranged weapon or average/fast will prevail in a prolonged battle??

It depends on enemy DR, but for majority of cases a non-reloading weapon with provide a higher steady-dps over prolonged fight.

 

As for misses: it depends. On lvl 3 you have 25 + 3x3 + ~6(from per) + 5(wood elf) = 42 acc

While enemies can have for reference (on PotD):

- 38 Def - Xaurip (DR: 4)

- 49 Def - Xaurip Skirmisher (DR: 7)

- 63 Def - Ogre (DR: 10)

- 76 Def - Shade (DR: 16; Burn: 8 )

 

The idea is to throw Aspirant's Mark for instance, quickly build focus, and follow up with Painful Interdiction into Mental Binding/AoE Blind.

It's ok to miss early with auto-attacks, but it's preferable to make sure your cc effect do land.

 

2x Fighter = Custom dedicated tank with just enough pow to get proper attention

It's not exactly how aggro works) You might want to check this post. Edited June 15, 2017 by MaxQuest

[superior987]

I've had some success with Eder tanking and kana+cipher off tanking using this build:

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/80748-class-build-lady-of-pain-high-speed-heavy-armored-dps-fighter/page-11

 

I'm having him use a great sword rather than sword and board atm, but he still stays up.

[Boeroer]

The fighters will still not stop attackers just because they hit harder, but the rushers will get punished harder for doing so. Also, since thereare more frontliners, there will be less space for the enemy to run around. Engagement stops the enemy for a short time - if you have two tanks it's more likely that the enemies don't reaxh your backline. Make use of Knockdown. With Overbearing Guard it's easier because enemies will suffer from prone if they want to rush past you.

 

If you give your priest a small shield and a hatchet he can cast relatively unhindered and won't get pummeled that much. Weapon damage isn't very important for a buffing priest anyways.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Boeroer