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Hey guys.

Did you know rapiers have crossguards? It means Ydwin does not have one, but rather a smallsword (yeah, hilt is not too standard but it can pass as a smallsword). 

I really like it. Ydwin does not seem very strong and since rapiers are not light it makes more sense to give her something lighter like a smallsword. Good job Obsidian.

 

 

And i've yet to see a proper explanation on why Ydwin looks anime.

Just showing pictures won't cut it.

 

She does look a bit like a typical anime schoolgirl, or maybe a bit like Sailor Moon? Though TBH, I'm not sure where the anime accusations are coming from. We'd have to ask those who originally started the whole 'Ydwin is anime' thing to know for sure.

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She does look a bit like a typical anime schoolgirl, or maybe a bit like Sailor Moon? Though TBH, I'm not sure where the anime accusations are coming from. We'd have to ask those who originally started the whole 'Ydwin is anime' thing to know for sure.

 

It has come to this. Sailor Moon’s sword:

 

 

nkgjoPE.png

 

 

Sailor Moon’s oldest outfit:

 

 

NcFBP55.png

 

They got skirts, and… what? I’ve watched all of Sailor Moon in the old times and when I saw Ydwin “Sailor Moon” never crossed my mind, personally.

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Pillars of Bugothas

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Hey guys.

Did you know rapiers have crossguards? It means Ydwin does not have one, but rather a smallsword (yeah, hilt is not too standard but it can pass as a smallsword). 

I really like it. Ydwin does not seem very strong and since rapiers are not light it makes more sense to give her something lighter like a smallsword. Good job Obsidian.

 

 

And i've yet to see a proper explanation on why Ydwin looks anime.

Just showing pictures won't cut it.

 

She does look a bit like a typical anime schoolgirl, or maybe a bit like Sailor Moon? Though TBH, I'm not sure where the anime accusations are coming from. We'd have to ask those who originally started the whole 'Ydwin is anime' thing to know for sure.

 

 

This. It's not so much the rapier and elf ears as it's the bookish spectacles and Gothic Lolita outfit. It's one pair of leggings removal away from Sailor Moon for sure. 

 

I'm no stranger to anime, but I didn't see the anime aspects in Ydwin until all of the "weeaboos" crawled out of the shadows and started blowing kisses at her. Now I can't unsee the anime tropes and the unusual attention makes me (unfortunately) happy that she's not becoming a Companion. This is why we can't have nice things!

 

I actually like the idea of the character based on the synopsis and as others have said it would be nice to have someone connected to animancy (not anime-cy!) as a Companion option (yes I know she's still a Sidekick). I do appreciate that Obsidian, in regards to artwork, was trying to create something more left of field, but maybe tone down some of the anime "appeal" and make her more like Nedyn in the Brackenbury District.

Edited by darqleo
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The opposite of an anime character would be... what? It's just a drawing style, right? All this anti-anime verbiage seems irrelevant.

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"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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"I'm no stranger to anime, but I didn't see the anime aspects in Ydwin until all of the "weeaboos" crawled out of the shadows and started blowing kisses at her"

 

Me: "what's the big deal about Ydwin"

Weeaboo: "she's just so interesting" (actual quote)

Me: *scowls* "you aren't fooling anyone. You know that right?"

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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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still ain't making sense.  farm implements such as sickles and flails has been used as weapons in the real world.  sickles and flails can be used effective as weapons. a sickle ain't a particular effective battlefield weapon 'gainst folks in plate armour, but then neither is the rapier or katana save for under specific conditions.  conflating crucifix shoulder cannons and enormous swords the budweiser clydesdales would need be used to move with arguable implausible rapier, katana and sickle is making your protests less valid rather than more.  the community reaction, hardly a measure o' sanity on best of days, were nevertheless more reasonable than yours.  see hand scythe wielded by xoti did not raise any concerns or anime comparisons, nor did it evoke other anime tropes such as yandere and tsundere.  achilles identifies how the xoti artwork contained no "anime dog whistles," and he wore correct.  the chalk-white, death-fixated, goth girl in frilly skirt and glasses were evoking predictable and reasonable anime comparisons which xoti art did not. 

 

oh, and am glad you brought up your improbable dual-wield scythes nonsense.  am thinking if you were even the least honest, you would admit that if the artwork had shown xoti as a pink-haired woman in a sailor uniform wielding dual-scythes as 'posed to a hand scythe and a lantern, people woulda' been complaining.  

 

but if you wanna keep arguing how you see no qualitative or meaningful difference 'tween 

 

0f6b452f1259274c3349aa307e364b96.jpg

 

and 

 

265px-Xoti-concept.jpg?version=02b17b8ee

 

then am at an impasse.  

 

converse, tsundere and yandere were predictable as once the anime trope link were created by means o' both the written description and artwork o' ydwin, the additional (and unlikely) baggage were likely to follow.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps is an argument for the impracticality o' the typical military/horseman's flail as well.  shows up in fantastical medieval artwork and the museum pieces we got today were perhaps produced in real life not as battlefield weapons but as props and such.  converse, the larger farm-implement sort of flail, were a more practical weapon.  if flails were used by actual soldiers on the battlefield, am suspecting they looked more like this:

97121d56c5775542a1754120ca7c16a7.jpg?noi

 

debate historical practicality o' the flail is not clear-cut, but to suggest the anime version is simple a matter o' degree removed is a laughable position to be taking and serious undercuts whatever argument you were attempting to make.

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I really liked the character concept and was an early supporter asking for her to be expanded upon BUT this was before the concept art that later came out. Apologies to the artist but I also thought it was very anime inspired and it put me off of the character because it seemed so out of place. I don't hate anime as there have been a few that I have enjoyed over the years but I also normally just call them cartoons so I'm not the slightest bit involved in whatever subculture has evolved around them either.

 

:shrugz:

Edited by ShadySands
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Free games updated 3/6/19

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With all this talk of Ydwin being some sort of anime-influenced blot on the face of Eora, I'm surprised that no one's howling for Xoti's blood. Update #17 did say that she "totes akimbo scythes", which sounds like it'd end up as something like this:

 

<image removed to save space>

 

Granted, it was most likely the writer's mistake since Gaun's props are a lamp and sickle. Even so, given the faint whiffs that have set some people off from that same update, I'd really expect more blood to boil at the mere thought of Xoti twirling scythes around.

 

The anime "problems" with Ydwin aren't weapon based though, her wielding a rapier is fine unless it was 2-3 times her normal size ala Final Fantasy or something. Duel wielding has been a Dungeons & Dragons trope forever.

Edited by darqleo
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still ain't making sense.  farm implements such as sickles and flails has been used as weapons in the real world.

 

 

We've covered this already and I already explained the basis for my description of Xoti's weapon as being impractical, so I'm not really sure what repeating yourself on the matter of farm implements being historically used as weapons is supposed to accomplish here.

 

Impractical weapons exist in the real world as well, even ones that are impractical to the point of ridiculousness: like ceremonial greatswords that are too large to actually use effectively within a battlefield, scissor katars that wouldn't actually be able to expand inside someone, and phallic symbol throwing weapons like this (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/43/f7/c0/43f7c0c13037da0e9025906b1edce70f.jpg), all of which would be right at home in various fantasy anime (just like someone wielding a sickle because the person behind the art thought it'd be cool would be).

 

 

achilles identifies how the xoti artwork contained no "anime dog whistles," and he wore correct.

 

 

You say that as if there were some consistent and objective criteria by which these comparisons occur, and in accordance with them, Ydwin would necessarily qualify as bearing anime influence while Xoti would not. The criteria are more variable and subjective than that, however. This is demonstrated throughout this thread in regards to the varied standards by Ydwin's anime stigma is applied: we have cases where people have independently concluded the association based on features of the concept art, details of Ydwin's tentative bio, or even retroactively after hearing others discuss her in particular ways.

 

 

but if you wanna keep arguing how you see no qualitative or meaningful difference 'tween (...)

 

 

Wow, Grommie. This keeps getting sadder and sadder. I understand that you can't be expected to have a grasp of the particulars of a given position (or positions) that you're arguing against, you've made that clear from your first response when you thought that I or anyone else in this thread had been claiming that Xoti sparked a comparable amount of  anti-anime backlash, but when you've previously repeated parts of my posts I'd hope that they'd at least sink through even if nothing else does.

 

Let's review: I've readily acknowledged a difference in degree in regards to impracticality on multiple occasions. If you don't see how a difference in degree can be meaningful, then I grieve for you. Perhaps you've also noted that I drew distinctions between weapons which in and of themselves would prompt anime comparisons and those which contribute to such assessments in conjunction with other features while clearly classifying Xoti's sickle in the latter category, but I wouldn't bet on it given your present track record.

 

Once again, I'll reiterate: I am not claiming that Xoti's sickle in and of itself is likely to be sufficient to justify anime comparisons the way one of those wacky cleavers would be, it simply features among other aspects of the concept art in question which, all taken together, could arguably demonstrate an anime influence. This distinction, which you've miserably and repeatedly failed to address, does not require the sickle to be 100% as impractical as any of the examples of anime weapons that you've posted.

 

Incidentally, I've never made any comparisons between the scythe-wielding bishonen and Xoti's concept art. I simply noted that the "akimo scythes" description used for Xoti in one of the updates seemed evocative of the horrors in that particular screenshot. What I subsequently wrote about arguably anime-esque features in her concept art is not tied to the screenshot in question and it's definitely not dependent on the concept art being equally rife with distinctively anime-based features.

 

If we're facing an impasse here, it's a result of your heroic efforts to preserve this particular strawman.

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The anime "problems" with Ydwin aren't weapon based though, her wielding a rapier is fine unless it was 2-3 times her normal size ala Final Fantasy or something.

 

Exactly what these problems are seems to vary significantly based on who's explaining them.

 

But to clarify, in the post you've quoted I'm not asserting that Ydwin and Xoti would be considered anime-esque for the same reasons; one of the few points of agreement on this subject thus far is that there are plenty of possible reasons for making anime comparisons, even if there's far less agreement about the validity of these reasons. 

 

Duel wielding has been a Dungeons & Dragons trope forever.

 

Dual wielding normally two-handed weapons like scythes, as suggested by the "akimbo scythes" description, would seem fairly likely to elicit anime comparisons, however (even if I do dimly recall hearing about a death knight in the Mystara D&D campaign setting who dual wielded greatswords). It obviously didn't, though, hence my surprise in the post that Xoti seemingly wasn't attracting any anime-based hate herself.

Edited by blotter
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The anime "problems" with Ydwin aren't weapon based though, her wielding a rapier is fine unless it was 2-3 times her normal size ala Final Fantasy or something.

 

Exactly what these problems are seems to vary significantly based on who's explaining them.

 

But to clarify, in the post you've quoted I'm not asserting that Ydwin and Xoti would be considered anime-esque for the same reasons; one of the few points of agreement on this subject thus far is that there are plenty of possible reasons for making anime comparisons, even if there's far less agreement about the validity of these reasons. 

 

Duel wielding has been a Dungeons & Dragons trope forever.

 

Dual wielding normally two-handed weapons like scythes, as suggested by the "akimbo scythes" description, would seem fairly likely to elicit anime comparisons, however (even if I do dimly recall hearing about a death knight in the Mystara D&D campaign setting who dual wielded greatswords). It obviously didn't, though, hence my surprise in the post that Xoti seemingly wasn't attracting any anime-based hate herself.

 

 

The "akimbo scythes" comment probably was a mistake unless they've changed direction on her (?). There's a little bit of in-game footage of Xoti with her sickle and lamp (to show off the lighting effect of the lamp on the environment IIRC, forgot which social media platform I watched it on). I mean you're right, scythes would be a two-handed weapon for sure and I would be against them being dual-wield in this game.

Edited by darqleo
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what is with evoking strawman on these boards.  "When I was referring to impractical weapons, I meant impractical in general, not impractical specifically within the context of anime."  again, is Gromnir who noted how the degree o' implausibility made your weapon concerns non analogous. is not simple a spectrum o' implausibility.  the degree o' implausibility o' sickles and horseman flails is o' a different character than battleship destroying swords and dual-wielding enormous scythes. is a fundamental difference between the "implausible" but admitted viable weapon such as a sickle or rapier which would prove less efficacious than other weapons, and weapons which cannot be used on a battlefield anywhere 'cause they are breaking the very laws o' physics. is not simple a matter o' degree.  sickles and flails and hatchets is not fitting w/i any meaningful spectrum o' implausibility which would raise anime parallel concerns.  were a non-issue from the start.

 

and the dual wielding scythe thing has been addressed many times now, so pretend as if it weren't addressed is patent fraudulent or obtuse.  a hand scythe and a sickle is descriptors for the same weapon/implement.  given the character art for xoti showing her wielding a sickle, folks Reasonably did not jump to the conclusion we would be seeing the following

 0f6b452f1259274c3349aa307e364b96.jpg

 seriously.  the board population did not indulge in such absurdism, and yet you use as foundation for argument.

 

you finally is correct though.  am agreeing to being at impasse.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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It's one thing to utter "akimbo scythes" in an update weeks after you show a drawing of the character holding a sickle and another to introduce a character with a drawing that has clear anime influences. Is the argument that these actions are not only equitable in degree but in kind?

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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It's one thing to utter "akimbo scythes" in an update weeks after you show a drawing of the character holding a sickle and another to introduce a character with a drawing that has clear anime influences. Is the argument that these actions are not only equitable in degree but in kind?

some folks will argue beyond all endurance.  particular in light o' the reaction to ydwin, am thinking it is obvious that if the xoti akimbo scythes description were used in conjunction with blotter's elric+scythes artwork, we woulda' seen an eruption o' critical board commentary 'bout anime parallels.  feigned surprise at "akimbo scythes" not drawing more board "ire" is difficult to take serious, especial given xoti's actual included artwork.

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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the degree o' implausibility o' sickles and horseman flails is o' a different character than battleship destroying swords and dual-wielding enormous scythes. is a fundamental difference between the "implausible" but admitted viable weapon such as a sickle or rapier which would prove less efficacious than other weapons, and weapons which cannot be used on a battlefield anywhere 'cause they are breaking the very laws o' physics. is not simple a matter o' degree.

 

You might have a point if we weren't talking about sickles that potentially be used to slay dragons, kraken, and colossal animats (a fair corollary for your battleship-destroying sword since you're introducing function), but guess what: we are. Further, both fall within the spectrum of media representations of weapons, where, again, matters of structural absurdity are absolutely a matter of degree. 

 

 

sickles and flails and hatchets is not fitting w/i any meaningful spectrum o' implausibility which would raise anime parallel concerns.

 

They may factor into such concerns along with other details depending on who's using them and how they're used, a point you previously claimed that you weren't arguing against.

 

 

 

given the character art for xoti showing her wielding a sickle, folks Reasonably did not jump to the conclusion we would be seeing the following (cut picture)  seriously.

 

 

Right. Because we know that the posters on this board invariably remember/keep track of information from previous updates: we never have nor ever will see any evidence to the contrary in that regard.

 

Are you seriously trying to claim that everyone who read that update and would find anime influence objectionable was also familiar with Xoti's concept art? That's the only way I can see reference to the art preventing any anti-anime backlash from the akimbo scythes description across the board like this.

 

 

 

the board population did not indulge in such absurdism, and yet you use as foundation for argument.

 

"And yet" nothing. The fact that people did not indulge, as you put it, is central to the discrepancy I was claiming. Ydwin demonstrates a range of features that are similarly present in western fantasy conventions and subsequently bloats into anime caricature as far as the board's concerned. Xoti is featured with a description that is quite evocative of even more egregious anime tropes and I've seen no ridicule about or objections to it. 

 

 

 

 It's one thing to utter "akimbo scythes" in an update weeks after you show a drawing of the character holding a sickle and another to introduce a character with a drawing that has clear anime influences. Is the argument that these actions are not only equitable in degree but in kind?

 

My argument never was that Xoti should be attracting an equal amount of scorn based on adherence to anime conventions, however much Gromnir wishes it was. It was based more on the lack of any such ridicule occurring (that I've seen, anyway).

Edited by blotter
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didn't actual read as we thought we were both agreeing to being at an impasse.  a curious way to respond to what we both saw as deadlock. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I can only speak for myself: I read that update, assumed they ditched the sickle for dual kamas, and never thought about it again. Chalk it up to a picture being worth a thousand words (or perhaps my inability to register that as an anime trigger).

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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The anime "problems" with Ydwin aren't weapon based though, her wielding a rapier is fine unless it was 2-3 times her normal size ala Final Fantasy or something.

 

Exactly what these problems are seems to vary significantly based on who's explaining them.

 

But to clarify, in the post you've quoted I'm not asserting that Ydwin and Xoti would be considered anime-esque for the same reasons; one of the few points of agreement on this subject thus far is that there are plenty of possible reasons for making anime comparisons, even if there's far less agreement about the validity of these reasons. 

 

Duel wielding has been a Dungeons & Dragons trope forever.

 

Dual wielding normally two-handed weapons like scythes, as suggested by the "akimbo scythes" description, would seem fairly likely to elicit anime comparisons, however (even if I do dimly recall hearing about a death knight in the Mystara D&D campaign setting who dual wielded greatswords). It obviously didn't, though, hence my surprise in the post that Xoti seemingly wasn't attracting any anime-based hate herself.

 

Even though duel-wielding two-handed weapons has been a goal of every min-max munchikin in D&D since 2.0 like...ever? EVER? Duel-wielding Orcish duel-bladed battle-axes with monkeygrip and mercurial blades is like...the biggest 3.5 munchikin powergamer cliche *EVER*.

 

Final question:

 

If you take this picture:HalfElfDuelist02_zps10cf7e77.jpg

 

And you make it a female and replace the male clothing with feminine clothing of the same period, wouldn't you wind up with something pretty close to Ydwin? With a similar outfit, a fairly close sword, elfin ears, etc.

 

The only difference is that one is in an action pose and one is female. I think it's all perception bias. People are seeing "anime influence" because it's a cute elfin female with glasses and a small sword in a skirt, and they're built an association with that inside their own brains. It's not meaningful beyond that.

Edited by Katarack21
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If you take this picture and change everything about it, it's essentially the same thing *thumb's up*

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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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If you take this picture and change everything about it, it's essentially the same thing *thumb's up*

"Everything" is a strawman, and a logical fallacy designed to humiliate me instead of actually, you know...refute my argument.

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Aww. Poor guy.

 

I stopped assuming that you should be taken seriously when you conveniently abandoned your last "argument"...after I destroyed it.

Edited by Achilles

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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