Will Obsidian be doing anything about the absolutely retarded amount of stun/prone/etc spam?

[Gromnir]

our recollection is that phantoms don't teleport.  shadows teleport. stun is precise what makes phantoms a challenge. 

 

claims 'bout no downside to balancing potd is ignoring reality and multiple Gromnir posts.  takes resources to balance a feature not actual used by many.

 

criticism o' tactical poe deficiencies while bringing up d&d crpgs is bordering ridiculous.  compare bg, the first ie d&d game to poe, the first game with a new system.  tactical depth o' poe far exceeds bg and arguing such a point ain't worthy o' much discussion.  the tactical options available to a poe player and poe foes is far more numerous than bg. compare actual combat options o' a poe fighter or rogue or ranger to similar bg classes. furthermore, like it or not, the graze mechanic which you complain 'bout also adds tactical complexity as debilitating effects cannot simple be ignored by proper pre-combat layering o' protections as existed in bg and d&d.  etc.  is not even a fair comparison to stack poe 'gainst bg as the d&d game were so utter lacking in tactical sophistication.  

 

am also not gonna bother yet again addressing spiritual successor nonsense. is a shibboleth.

 

the graze mechanic does make a handful o' encounters more difficult.  not every player sees such increased difficulty as a bad thing as increased difficulty is exact what player is demanding with potd runs.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Katarack21]

Aren't the layering of spells pre-combat in order to prevent or avoid certain types of attacks and effects simply another layer of strategy/tactics which PoE has completely removed from their gameplay? In that specific sense, PoE has *removed* a layer of complexity.

Specifically I'm thinking here of the various different spell protections in D&D, which over specific levels of spells or specific types of spells, thus making you have to trade off which spells you are protected from and decide which form of protection you really want.

Until you get *really* high in level, when you can then both block off multiple spell levels and also get access to spells that can't be blocked at all.

In general I've always felt D&D has a very complex and interactive spell-vs-spell system, especially factoring in things like Spellcraft, Dispel Magic, etc.

[Gromnir]

Aren't the layering of spells pre-combat in order to prevent or avoid certain types of attacks and effects simply another layer of strategy/tactics which PoE has completely removed from their gameplay? In that specific sense, PoE has *removed* a layer of complexity.

 

gonna complete disagree.  layering protections in d&d crpgs were not the least bit tactical as it were largely ritual and rote.  once an activity becomes repetitive and mindless, it is difficult to see much tactical value in its addition. the reason for removing pre-combat casting in poe were in large part to exorcise a perceived obstacle to tactical combat.  

 

'course there is poe tactics which is so overwhelming effective they become as habitual as ie game pre-casting.  such an admission is not an argument in favor o' d&d pre-casting but rather a recognition o' need for better balance and more encounter complexity for poe2.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[rjshae]

Aren't the layering of spells pre-combat in order to prevent or avoid certain types of attacks and effects simply another layer of strategy/tactics which PoE has completely removed from their gameplay? In that specific sense, PoE has *removed* a layer of complexity.

 

Well probably not, because protective spells are still available during combat. The buffing variety remains in place, but now you have to assess the risk in using those spells versus using attack spells. If anything, I'd say that adds complexity.

[Katarack21]

 

Aren't the layering of spells pre-combat in order to prevent or avoid certain types of attacks and effects simply another layer of strategy/tactics which PoE has completely removed from their gameplay? In that specific sense, PoE has *removed* a layer of complexity.

 

Well probably not, because protective spells are still available during combat. The buffing variety remains in place, but now you have to assess the risk in using those spells versus using attack spells. If anything, I'd say that adds complexity.

 

Yeah, but look at the rest of my post. PoE doesn't have the spell-vs-spell buffing/blocking component where you have to decide which types of spells you're likely to get hit with, which ones you care most about blocking, who you want to protect, etc. That's the aspect of Baldur's Gate pre-buffing that was always *to much* for me and I hated, but which I felt was a degree of complexity that is often missing in modern RPG magic systems.

 

Then again, for what it's worth I beat BG2 a ton of times and never bothered much with pre-buffing beyond basic low-level spells like Bark Skin and such. It's not *necessary* to beat BG2; my own experience showed that to me pretty directly. That pre-buffing and such is an entirely voluntary decision that one chooses to use as part of their own strategy/tactics or chooses not to.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Katarack21

[PizzaSHARK]

our recollection is that phantoms don't teleport.  shadows teleport. stun is precise what makes phantoms a challenge. 

 

claims 'bout no downside to balancing potd is ignoring reality and multiple Gromnir posts.  takes resources to balance a feature not actual used by many.

 

criticism o' tactical poe deficiencies while bringing up d&d crpgs is bordering ridiculous.  compare bg, the first ie d&d game to poe, the first game with a new system.  tactical depth o' poe far exceeds bg and arguing such a point ain't worthy o' much discussion.  the tactical options available to a poe player and poe foes is far more numerous than bg. compare actual combat options o' a poe fighter or rogue or ranger to similar bg classes. furthermore, like it or not, the graze mechanic which you complain 'bout also adds tactical complexity as debilitating effects cannot simple be ignored by proper pre-combat layering o' protections as existed in bg and d&d.  etc.  is not even a fair comparison to stack poe 'gainst bg as the d&d game were so utter lacking in tactical sophistication.  

 

am also not gonna bother yet again addressing spiritual successor nonsense. is a shibboleth.

 

the graze mechanic does make a handful o' encounters more difficult.  not every player sees such increased difficulty as a bad thing as increased difficulty is exact what player is demanding with potd runs.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Then why have it all?  Why waste any effort on a mode few players will use and even fewer will actually enjoy, when that effort could instead be redirected into polishing and fine-tuning the modes that players will play and which most players will enjoy?  If you're going to half-ass something, it's better to not even do it at all.  Those extremely few players who want an ultra hardcore experience and would find such a thing fun can play purpose-built games like Age of Decadence and Dungeon Rats.

 

It's been too long since I played BG to say much about its tactics, but it was a 1st-7th level adventure in 2E rules - you're missing half your toolkit so of course your tactical options will be limited, on top of the Infinity Engine not supporting things like movement/difficult terrain, height differences, etc.  Realistically, Pillars should be compared with BG2, NWN, and the many games that have come out long since BG since they're proof positive of improvements (and mistakes) made by previous adaptations of tabletop systems.  I genuinely believe that Obsidian went way too far in the direction of simplifying things and, in some cases, fixing what wasn't broken.  You have so few real tactical options in PoE because of both the game's design and the engine's limitations - battlefield alteration is a core element of tabletop play, and the cover mechanic etc is also a huge part (for example, someone firing a crossbow into a melee, past an ally, receives an immense -6 to their attack rating... which makes positioning super important and means melee characters need to pay attention to lines of fire for their ranged buddies), and absolutely none of it features anywhere in Pillars (or the IE games.)

 

Maybe it was cut because it was determined to be more complex than it was worth, or maybe it was too much of a pain in the ass to get it into the game engine and working the way they wanted it to.  Regardless of the reasons, it cuts enormous parts of potential tactical depth out of Pillars' system, and this is why comparisons to tabletop are necessary and relevant.  Just because you feel they aren't, doesn't mean they aren't - maybe you don't play much tabletop and so don't "know what you're missing."  You can call it a shibboleh all you'd like but the dev commentary itself and errata specifically mention the team wanting to address what they perceived as problems or issues with the tabletop systems that the Infinity Engine games were developed from, and Project Eternity was billed as a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate right from the outset.  So comparisons to tabletop systems and the Infinity Engine games are both relevant and useful.

 

 

 

The graze mechanic adds absolutely nothing to tactics because you either ignore them (simple debuffs like Dazed, Weakened, Sickened, etc) or you cast the appropriate immunity spell (Stuck, Stunned, Paralyzed, Charmed, Dominated, Confused, etc) without any thought.  When I see an ogre druid, I toss out immunity to stuck and hobbled because I know they're gonna open with it - there's no thought there, no tactical depth.  It's every bit as binary as "use Knock Down on the wizard to keep it from running away."  When I know I'm going to be fighting Phantoms, I just cast my immunity to stuns at the start of combat, or whatever best substitutes I have (potions of recovery, scroll of protection, etc.)  There's no thought that goes into it.

 

Additionally, acting like Pillars doesn't have pre-buffing is nonsense.  You send in one person to aggro the enemy group (typically with a high-damage ranged attack like an arbalest or arquebus) and while they're running back to the group, dragging the enemies with them, your Wizard is moving into position to drop Slicken on them, your Priest is buffing, your scrappers are drinking their buff potions, etc.  Just because you can't cast those spells before combat has started doesn't mean you can't still effortlessly rig it so that your group has plenty of time to get buffs and hazard AOEs on the ground before enemies get into range to start attacking.

Edited April 12, 2017 by PizzaSHARK

[Gromnir]

first, am not certain why we is bothering with this.  

 

second, obsidian never claimed that poe were a spiritual successor to bg as you claimed.  is certain folks who keep claiming such nonsense in spite o' the fact that "spiritual successor" means nothing. shibboleth.

 

why have potd? 'cause hard core players, as few as they are, want increased difficulty.  give the hardcore folks what they want w/o having to do serious additional resource investment?  sure.  is a cheap way to give a small number o' sooper-fans a bit o' a thrill. if potd can be added to the base game with little additional resources, then why the heck not?  for the mouthiest fans, potd increases replayability.  huzzah. is good for Gromnir.  as the target audience o' potd, am perfect ok with a few encounters being disproportionate difficult, and we wouldn't want the developers to sacrifice base game development to make major improvements to potd.  is axiomatic inefficient to spend any considerable developer resources improving the balance o' a feature meant to increase the difficulty o' the core game.

 

third, compare bg levels 6-8 and poe levels 6-8 if it makes you feel better.  bg fighters get standard melee or ranged attack. that's it. rogues get what kinda combat abilities in bg? rangers?  regardless o' the levels, your bg toolbox is sparse.  be serious.  worse, you can defeat every bg encounter via identical and simple tactics.  bg is not a good squad-based tactical combat game, though iwd were much better and poe claimed to be drawing more inspiration from iwd combat than bg. 

 

four... *sigh* we honest don't have the endurance to respond to decreasing compelling concerns.

 

the graze mechanic is functioning as intended at most difficulty levels.  potd does indeed create a perfect storm for enemies regarding grazes as foe accuracy is increased while also adding a considerable number o' foes. get far more incoming potd attacks to exploit grazes, and those attacks is backed by serious increased accuracy.  the graze mechanic results being complained 'bout in this thread is utter foreseeable.  

 

we can see some possible value in decreasing mob numbers in potd for a few o' those particular troublesome encounters as such would be an easy fix.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Katarack21]

"obsidian never claimed that poe were a spiritual successor to bg as you claimed."

"Project Eternity aims to bring back the magic from Baldur's Gate..."

That's a quote.

[Gromnir]

 

"Project Eternity aims to bring back the magic from Baldur's Gate..."

 

 

and what exactly do you think that means? bring back magic from "..."  am s'posing there is a list o' additional ie games mentioned?  so not "spiritual successor," but nebulous bring back magic of multiple ie titles?  define for us what is those qualities and features which constitute the "magic" o' multiple games?  bet your list is different from Gromnir's. has always been shibboleth.  obsidian never claimed "spiritual successor," and is meaningless puffery regardless. 

 

closest quote we found from obsidian is, "Project Eternity aims to recapture the magic, imagination, depth, and nostalgia of classic RPGs that we enjoyed making - and playing."

 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity

 

is a sales pitch.  is extreme general.  is Not "spiritual successor" to bg... whatever the hell that means.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 12, 2017 by Gromnir

[Katarack21]

 

"Project Eternity aims to bring back the magic from Baldur's Gate..."

 

 

and what exactly do you think that means?

It means that they deliberately marketed the game based on nostalgia for Baldur's Gate. They knew *damn* well what they were doing. It was Bernaysian marketing--make the people *feel* like they'll get their old sense of fun back even if they logically know it's not the same game.

 

It's like a beer commercial where they show a guy drinking this brand of beer and then suddenly surround by sexy women taking off their clothes. They don't *say* that drinking their beer will make you get laid, but you, me, and they all know what they're saying.

 

This isn't secret ****. This is Marketing 101.

 

BTWs, that *was* a quote from *OBSIDIAN*. From their KICKSTARTER video, direct.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Katarack21

[Gromnir]

 

 

"Project Eternity aims to bring back the magic from Baldur's Gate..."

 

 

and what exactly do you think that means?

It means that they deliberatly marketed the game based on nostalgia for Baldur's Gate. They knew *damn* well what they were doing. It was Bernaysian marketing--make the people *feel* like they'll get their old sense of fun back even if they logically know it's not the same game.

 

It's like a beer commercial where they show a guy drinking this brand of beer and then suddenly surround by sexy women taking off their clothes. They don't *say* that drinking their beer will make you get laid, but you, me, and they all know what they're saying.

 

This isn't secret ****. This is Marketing 101.

 

all of which makes the "spiritual successor" bit meaningless.  is not a promise o'... anything.   obsidian were guilty o' attempting to use nostalgia for bg to sell poe? *feigned shock* 

 

review: obsidian never said "spiritual successor" and 'ccording to you, the bg magic bit is akin to using hot chicks to sell beer?  

 

...

 

in parlance you might be familiar with, you is doing a terrible job o' selling us on the notion o' "spiritual successor" being more than shibboleth.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[PizzaSHARK]

Gromnir, you're just wrong about the spiritual successor thing, man.  Just give it up.  You might see it as a shibboleh or nonsense, but there's no way you can deny that Obsidian banked on nostalgia and explicitly played to perceived demand for a successor to the Infinity Engine games... much like inXile did with Wasteland 2, and then Torment: Tides of Numenera.

 

In regards to a squad based tactical game, none of the Infinity Engine games (or Pillars, or even inXile's Wasteland 2 really) have been any good at it, but that's never really been the focus.  Pillars definitely has more tactical complexity than BG1, but is about on par with BG2 (and BG2 honestly didn't have much outside of a byzantine spell system.)  Again, that's part of why I think PotD is so pointless and why it seems like Obsidian felt compelled to spam stuns and hard disables everywhere in the game (both from players and against players) to try and make combat more "exciting."  The lack of terrain features, any sort of cover or concealment mechanics etc, removes a huge swathe of tactical considerations and features from the playbook and results in most fights being straight up brawls.  This isn't really aided by Pillars, oddly, having virtually no way of talking your way out of a fight (unlike the games it was inspired by, though the Infinity Engine games were also rather combat-heavy and light on the non-combat stuff.)

[CrumpetsForBreakfast]

The point of why it's an indefensible mechanic design is not because it can't be beat but because the solution is narrow yet required.

 

It boils down to "this is how you play the game" which then excludes the bulk of alternative options. It's not about difficulty, it's people learn they need magic to get past it, or dramatically outnumber them, not very inventive just limiting.

 

I believe that if you had a party of xaurip skirmishers that could level up like characters you could beat the game blindfolded. Actually it begs the question of why wouldn't xaurips just train more skirmishers and then conquer the whole world.

 

That's just how silly the mechanic is and why it isn't defensible. There are a million better mechanic designs than a disabling effect on hit.

[Tigranes]

Having no stun abilities, or having them be too weak to ever be noticeable, would also be rather disappointing. To me the only question is whether they were so overpowering or ubiquitous to be a pain, and my opinion is they weren't, in general - but that it was not a great move to let grazes/crits linearly reduce/extend disabling effects, and some other system could be beneficial.

 

IE games have always been massive combatfests with plenty of 'trash mobs', and on the whole there wasn't that much nonlinearity or ways to talk your way out of the fight (except PST). What POE2 should do is take the queue from IWD2 and introduce more set pieces: goblins that bang on war drums to rally their friends, exploding barrels, etc; even the simplest of environmental interactions and enemy formations would be nice.

[hilfazer]

 

There will be less attacks that can graze in POE2.

 

Obsidian already did something with CC compared to its spiritual predecessors - durations are short. Take for example this D&D spell:

http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Emotion-Hopelessness

1 round = 6 seconds. Is there anything in POE that can compare with that with duration? Well, maybe Binding Roots if ranger has lots of INT and crits but its single target ability and does not prevent all actions. And Hopelessness is still going to beat it with enough caster levels. Keep in mind Binding Roots is a CC with exceptionally long duration.

Grazes have only half of those durations.

 

Nope, but level 1 spells in Pillars are a lot stronger than they are in D&D.  Spells in Pillars are, in general, a lot stronger than they are in D&D because spells can graze.  Sometimes you don't really need to petrify them for the full duration - a couple seconds is all you need.  In D&D, if they save or resist your spell, too bad.  In Pillars, grazes can often get you by just fine, especially if it's a control spell and not a damage spell (hence why control wizards tend to be orders of magnitude more reliable and better, overall, than damage wizards.)

 

I wouldn't call them stronger, but more raliable. It's nice you use 'petrify' as an example - it is incomparably stronger in D&D than in POE, and you can get it from lvl1 chromatic orb instead of lvl 7 Chaotic Orb (with a duration of 3s).

They are stronger at dealing damage, i'll give you that.

 

Keep in mind grazes are not specific to spells and they were not introduced because of them - they are more general thing and were added because Josh does not want us (and our enemies) to miss much. POE2 gets rid of many grazes and most likely will replace them with hits. This is what i forgot to mention in my previous post, my bad.

 

 

Note that spell affects everyone in the area.  Compare that to the Pillars 4th level spell Confusion, which simply applies confusion to all enemies in a large AOE with no worries about friendly fire.  I'd take the Pillars spell over the D&D spell any day of the week.

There's similar spell in IE games, with same name even! There is also Chaos. Not sure if both of them lacked FF but at least 1 did.

 

 

I'd take the Pillars spell over the D&D spell any day of the week.

You. I'd really welcome such a spell in my POE. But maybe it's just me, i like positioning in combat, i like FF and dealing with it. But i understand gamers who do not want to be bothered by such things and want cast their spells whenever and wherever they want. So does Obsidian since they made Tyranny.

 

Not enough FF on spells could be another problem (why did they remove it from Winter Wind? ).

 

 

Sometimes you don't really need to petrify them for the full duration

That's what i missed in IE games. Status effect spells were either always useful if an enemy failed his save or never useful if he didn't. Sometimes useful is a welcome addition. If you can take advantage of that short duration - good for you.

[Gromnir]

Gromnir, you're just wrong about the spiritual successor thing, man.  Just give it up.  You might see it as a shibboleh or nonsense, but there's no way you can deny that Obsidian banked on nostalgia and explicitly played to perceived demand for a successor to the Infinity Engine games... much like inXile did with Wasteland 2, and then Torment: Tides of Numenera.

 

In regards to a squad based tactical game, none of the Infinity Engine games (or Pillars, or even inXile's Wasteland 2 really) have been any good at it, but that's never really been the focus.  Pillars definitely has more tactical complexity than BG1, but is about on par with BG2 (and BG2 honestly didn't have much outside of a byzantine spell system.)  Again, that's part of why I think PotD is so pointless and why it seems like Obsidian felt compelled to spam stuns and hard disables everywhere in the game (both from players and against players) to try and make combat more "exciting."  The lack of terrain features, any sort of cover or concealment mechanics etc, removes a huge swathe of tactical considerations and features from the playbook and results in most fights being straight up brawls.  This isn't really aided by Pillars, oddly, having virtually no way of talking your way out of a fight (unlike the games it was inspired by, though the Infinity Engine games were also rather combat-heavy and light on the non-combat stuff.)

kinda missing the point on shibboleth.  first, obsidian never said it, but more important, as we keep repeating, it means nothing to say "spiritual successor."  in the bit kat21 left out o' his quote, there were mention o' iwd and planescape as well.  so, if the "magic" bit is indeed akin to "spiritual successor," then poe were intended to be the spiritual successor o' three different games.  use Gromnir's quote from kickstarter and poe becomes spiritual successor o' all the old roleplay games obsidian developers liked to play? perhaps somebody has claimed the new mummy movie is the spiritual successor o' all the old-timey horror and monster films folks like.  uh, ok. what exact is the point o' being the spiritual successor o' multiple games.  oh, and bg already had a spiritual successor: bg2.  

 

am thinking you don't know what is shibboleth, but suggesting there is some kinda fundamental quality o' a "spiritual successor" is silly  and revealing something 'bout those who use the phrase as 'posed to having any meaningful use in game development discussions.  kat 21 accurate likens the use o' phrase to the inclusion o' hot girls in beer commercials.  he/she is correct.  the girls don't reveal anything 'bout the qualities o' the beer. even the dumbest purchasers is not gonna expect hot girls to sudden become attracted to a purchaser o' beer. so, you are the guy actual buying the beer for the hot girls? the shibboleth in question is, at best, nostalgia inducing puffery when it is utilized... not that obsidian did use. furthermore, what is the qualities o' a spiritual successor?  do you know?  is it possible for anybody hearing you says "spiritual successor" to know what essential qualities you is referencing?  no? then is not a particular useful descriptor.  

 

you, like others, has globbed onto a meaningless turn o' phrase that obsidian never even used.  congrats on dragging out and proving shibboleth.

 

as for the second half o' your post, you gotta recognize you is marginalizing self, yes?  Gromnir were in fact responding to your complaint 'bout surfeit o' tactical depth. fine.  you not see poe or or the ie games or wasteland 2 as particular good examples o' squad-based tactical combat in rpgs.  again, fine.  given such low opinion o' poe tactical combat, why are you so fixated on a graze mechanic in potd? makes no sense to us whatsoever.  the potd feature is an extreme cheap way for obsidian to give the hardcore player a bit o' a challenge.  is not 'posed to be balanced.  your complaint is becoming increasing nonsensical.

 

again, am in agreement that 'cause o' potd increased mobs and bloated foe accuracy, a handful o' encounters involving enemies which confer debilitating status effects become significant more difficult than other trash mobs. for reasons stated ad nauseum in previous posts, your solutions to an extreme limited problem strike us as impractical and excessive.  am doubting we are gonna reach agreement.

 

The point of why it's an indefensible mechanic design is not because it can't be beat but because the solution is narrow yet required.

 

if you ask ten different potd players how they deal with stuns, you are likely to get at least five different answers.  one o' the good things 'bout poe is the wide range o' player options. the game has many abilities and synergies.  assuming a solution is narrow is a mistake.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

"Project Eternity aims to bring back the magic from Baldur's Gate..."

 

 

and what exactly do you think that means?

It means that they deliberatly marketed the game based on nostalgia for Baldur's Gate. They knew *damn* well what they were doing. It was Bernaysian marketing--make the people *feel* like they'll get their old sense of fun back even if they logically know it's not the same game.

 

It's like a beer commercial where they show a guy drinking this brand of beer and then suddenly surround by sexy women taking off their clothes. They don't *say* that drinking their beer will make you get laid, but you, me, and they all know what they're saying.

 

This isn't secret ****. This is Marketing 101.

 

all of which makes the "spiritual successor" bit meaningless.  is not a promise o'... anything.   obsidian were guilty o' attempting to use nostalgia for bg to sell poe? *feigned shock* 

 

review: obsidian never said "spiritual successor" and 'ccording to you, the bg magic bit is akin to using hot chicks to sell beer?  

 

...

 

in parlance you might be familiar with, you is doing a terrible job o' selling us on the notion o' "spiritual successor" being more than shibboleth.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Obsidian marketed PoE based on nostalgia for Baldurs Gate, using the names of people who worked on Baldur's Gate and the fact that they did so as a selling point, promising a game in the style of the IE engine that is primarily known for Baldur's Gate. They marketed is as "bringing back the magic of Baldur's Gate".

 

Did they say "spiritual successor"? No, but they did everything in their power to make you think "spiritual successor" without actually doing so. It's a technique called "engineering consent", it was very well done, it's very clear, and I can even give you the history on who designed this technique and how it was implemented if you wish.

 

I'm not bull****ting you here. I'm not making this up and I'm not putting out some theory. This a known aspect of marketing in the business world. This is how it's done, and this is what they did.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Katarack21

[Gromnir]

*sigh*

 

gonna do the repeat thing, eh?

 

"kinda missing the point on shibboleth.  first, obsidian never said it, but more important, as we keep repeating, it means nothing to say "spiritual successor."  in the bit kat21 left out o' his quote, there were mention o' iwd and planescape as well.  so, if the "magic" bit is indeed akin to "spiritual successor," then poe were intended to be the spiritual successor o' three different games.  use Gromnir's quote from kickstarter and poe becomes spiritual successor o' all the old roleplay games obsidian developers liked to play? perhaps somebody has claimed the new mummy movie is the spiritual successor o' all the old-timey horror and monster films folks like.  uh, ok. what exact is the point o' being the spiritual successor o' multiple games.  oh, and bg already had a spiritual successor: bg2.  

 

"am thinking you don't know what is shibboleth, but suggesting there is some kinda fundamental quality o' a "spiritual successor" is silly  and revealing something 'bout those who use the phrase as 'posed to having any meaningful use in game development discussions.  kat 21 accurate likens the use o' phrase to the inclusion o' hot girls in beer commercials.  he/she is correct.  the girls don't reveal anything 'bout the qualities o' the beer. even the dumbest purchasers is not gonna expect hot girls to sudden become attracted to a purchaser o' beer. so, you are the guy actual buying the beer for the hot girls? the shibboleth in question is, at best, nostalgia inducing puffery when it is utilized... not that obsidian did use. furthermore, what is the qualities o' a spiritual successor?  do you know?  is it possible for anybody hearing you says "spiritual successor" to know what essential qualities you is referencing?  no? then is not a particular useful descriptor.  

 

"you, like others, has globbed onto a meaningless turn o' phrase that obsidian never even used.  congrats on dragging out and proving shibboleth."

 

so again, obsidian clear avoided claiming spiritual successor-- never actual used such a phrase.  possible 'cause phrase is meaningless? "spiritual successor" to what?  a collection o' more than a half dozen crpg releases? at best you got some kinda vague  notion o' nostalgia being sold by obsidian.  no disagreement, but that hardly makes "spiritual successor" any less a shibboleth. given we don't even have a specific idea o' what poe were 'posed a "spiritual successor" to, the phrase itself has no meaning.  is sexy women taking off their clothes in beer commercials. is vague nostalgia.  is a list o' essential qualities which is gonna change depending on who you ask. meaningless.

 

use and defend "spiritual successor" don't say anything 'bout poe, obsidian or even the meaning o' "spiritual sucessor."  keep using and defending "spiritual successor" does actual say something 'bout the folks using and defending. shibboleth.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Katarack21]

 

*sigh*

 

gonna do the repeat thing, eh?

 

"kinda missing the point on shibboleth.  first, obsidian never said it, but more important, as we keep repeating, it means nothing to say "spiritual successor."  in the bit kat21 left out o' his quote, there were mention o' iwd and planescape as well.  so, if the "magic" bit is indeed akin to "spiritual successor," then poe were intended to be the spiritual successor o' three different games.  use Gromnir's quote from kickstarter and poe becomes spiritual successor o' all the old roleplay games obsidian developers liked to play? perhaps somebody has claimed the new mummy movie is the spiritual successor o' all the old-timey horror and monster films folks like.  uh, ok. what exact is the point o' being the spiritual successor o' multiple games.  oh, and bg already had a spiritual successor: bg2.  

 

"am thinking you don't know what is shibboleth, but suggesting there is some kinda fundamental quality o' a "spiritual successor" is silly  and revealing something 'bout those who use the phrase as 'posed to having any meaningful use in game development discussions.  kat 21 accurate likens the use o' phrase to the inclusion o' hot girls in beer commercials.  he/she is correct.  the girls don't reveal anything 'bout the qualities o' the beer. even the dumbest purchasers is not gonna expect hot girls to sudden become attracted to a purchaser o' beer. so, you are the guy actual buying the beer for the hot girls? the shibboleth in question is, at best, nostalgia inducing puffery when it is utilized... not that obsidian did use. furthermore, what is the qualities o' a spiritual successor?  do you know?  is it possible for anybody hearing you says "spiritual successor" to know what essential qualities you is referencing?  no? then is not a particular useful descriptor.  

 

"you, like others, has globbed onto a meaningless turn o' phrase that obsidian never even used.  congrats on dragging out and proving shibboleth."

 

so again, obsidian clear avoided claiming spiritual successor-- never actual used such a phrase.  possible 'cause phrase is meaningless? "spiritual successor" to what?  a collection o' more than a half dozen crpg releases? at best you got some kinda vague  notion o' nostalgia being sold by obsidian.  no disagreement, but that hardly makes "spiritual successor" any less a shibboleth. given we don't even have a specific idea o' what poe were 'posed a "spiritual successor" to, the phrase itself has no meaning.  is sexy women taking off their clothes in beer commercials. is vague nostalgia.  is a list o' essential qualities which is gonna change depending on who you ask. meaningless.

 

use and defend "spiritual successor" don't say anything 'bout poe, obsidian or even the meaning o' "spiritual sucessor."  keep using and defending "spiritual successor" does actual say something 'bout the folks using and defending. shibboleth.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Not repeating, rephrasing and adding additional information. I didn't "leave it out", I did the accepted and normal "..." to indicate there is additional portions to the quote but that I was simply using the bit that was applicable to the statement that I was making; I cited where it came from in my second post so that you could go and look at it yourself, so that you could verify. I wasn't hiding anything or attempting to deceive anybody in any way.

 

 

the girls don't reveal anything 'bout the qualities o' the beer. even the dumbest purchasers is not gonna expect hot girls to sudden become attracted to a purchaser o' beer.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying about Bernaysian marketing. It's not about making the purchaser *believe* that this is going to happen. That's not how it works and that's not what I was saying. As you've pointed out, that's *clearly* ridiculous. You are correct on that.

 

It's about making the person *feel* on an emotional level as if this might be a possible thing. Even if they know it isn't, the feeling that it might be will influence *most* peoples decisions *most* of the time. This is real fact; they've done literally hundreds of studies, they *count* on this to sell their products, this *works*. Statistically you can *count* that certain percentages will be affected by this certain amounts of the time, and you can use that to predict successful marketing campaigns by manipulating peoples emotional states--like making them feel like they'll get the same fun they had playing this one particular game without ever saying "this game is a spiritual successor to that game."; just like you make a person *feel* that they'll get laid if they drink this beer without ever telling them, or trying to make them actually believe, that they'll get laid if they drink this beer.

 

This is the technique that was pioneered by Edward Bernays in the 1920's. It's the technique that turned deoderant from a "pansy product for sissies' into a mainstream product. It's what turned Listerine form a floor cleaner into a mouthwash. It's what powered the entire WWII propaganda machine. It's what Bernays wrote about in his 1928 book "Propaganda", and he wrote about how to do it in his 1955 essay "The Engineering of Consent".

 

It's a technique he developed using Freudian psychology, and that he sold to US corporations beginning in the 1910's. It's literally what all modern marketing techinques are built on, and it's what Obisdian did with their kickstarter techniques. Did they ever say "PoE is a spiritual successor to BG"? No. Of course not. They did everything in their power to make people *feel* like that, counting on a large chunk of their fanbase to feel exactly that way and act on that feeling.

 

The whole marketing campaign was focused around making people feel as if PoE was going to make them feel like Baldurs Gate made them feel. Icewind Dale, Fallout, all of these were mentioned but other than Fallout, literally all of these are dependent on and in some way pointing back to Baldur's Gate. When they say "the people who worked on the Infinity Engine", that's "the people who worked on Baldur's Gate", because that's Baldur's Gate's engine--that's the game it's most strongly associated with because that's the game it was literally built and designed for, and they *knew* that when they said it! That's how Bernaysian marketing works--you draw correlations that create unconcious awareness in the mind of your consumer that drive the emotional state and behaviors of those consumers.

 

That's what I'm saying. That's what they did. They knowingly and deliberately--because it's a common and basic marketing technique--used the connection between the people at Obsidian and Baldur's Gate to manipulate the emotional state of consumers into *feeling* as if PoE would be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate, without ever actually saying so.

[Gromnir]

so not getting through.  seeing as how we never denied obsidian were using warm fuzzies for ie games to sell poe, your explanation post is pointless.  

 

do you know what is shibboleth?  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Katarack21]

so not getting through.  seeing as how we never denied obsidian were using warm fuzzies for ie games to sell poe, your explanation post is pointless.  

 

do you know what is shibboleth?  

 

HA! Good Fun!

It's like we're both talking to a brick wall. "a custom, principle, or belief distinguishing a particular class or group of people, especially a long-standing one regarded as outmoded or no longer important."

 

Now a question for you: Have you ever read "Propaganda"? It's not the "warm fuzzies about IE games" that's important; it's the unconcious connections that people naturally draw between the Infinity Engine and Baldur's Gate, specifically. Not everyone, not all the time--but enough people, enough of the time.

 

[Katarack21]

All I'm saying is that the deliberate and knowing use of this technique by Obsidian is why people keep coming back to the "spiritual successor" idea even though Obsidian never directly stated it, and that they probably did this intentionally to sell ****. That's all; it's not because people are stupid and don't understand what "spiritual successor" means, it's because Obsidian used this marketing technique to make people feel like this.

[Gromnir]

 

so not getting through.  seeing as how we never denied obsidian were using warm fuzzies for ie games to sell poe, your explanation post is pointless.  

 

do you know what is shibboleth?  

 

HA! Good Fun!

It's like we're both talking to a brick wall. "a custom, principle, or belief distinguishing a particular class or group of people, especially a long-standing one regarded as outmoded or no longer important."

 

Now a question for you: Have you ever read "Propaganda"? It's not the "warm fuzzies about IE games" that's important; it's the unconcious connections that people naturally draw between the Infinity Engine and Baldur's Gate, specifically. Not everyone, not all the time--but enough people, enough of the time.

 

 

*groan*

 

it is sexy women in beer commercials taking off their clothes.  your illustration.  your metaphor. when discussing the qualities o' beer or the brewer's fulfillment 'pon promises regarding the qualities o' beer, only the complete yutz points to the sexy women in beer commercials taking off their clothes.  you are identifying a generalized marketing approach.  can't use specific, 'cause as we has identified now a dozen different freaking times, obsidian never did use the shibboleth in question. game publishers and developers sell using nostalgia? *feigned shock* 'course they do.  is still impossible to blame obsidian for using "spiritual successor" 'cause they never did.  use nostalgia in general?  sure. so what?  point to the general marketing approach as meaningful when discussing the qualities o' games or beer is idiotic.

 

people keep using "spiritual successor" in context o' poe as if it has meaning and value. in spite o' being a bit of marketing puffery (which obsidian didn't specific use anyway) there is a class o' folks who continue to attribute qualities and features to a phrase which don't have any such meaning. is shibboleth.  reveals something 'bout the person who uses phrase.  if not using simple to identify the crpg Marketing equivalent sexy women taking off their clothes, then is being used false. shibboleth.  

 

general speaking, "spiritual successor" is a highly subjective descriptor representing no inherent qualities or features.  use such a descriptor to identify any game is pointless.  may have value to an advertiser or seller who is going for feel, but to fault or laud a game developer for "spiritual successor" failure or achievement is ridiculous as the phrase is representing vague, nebulous and elusive qualities which will vary significantly from player to player.  your intentional partial "magic" quote makes even worse as specific speaking o' poe, the developers were selling the nostalgia for at minimum, a half-dozen different game releases.  is more than a few folks who think ps:t were the bestest game ever who at same time also think bg were dreck. 

 

shibboleth.  you are talking generalized marketing 'bout selling nostalgia.  fine.  Gromnir keeps identifying how in discussion 'bout the game itself, to keep referring to the sexy women in beer commercials who take off their clothes makes the person look foolish.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Katarack21]

I'm using that as an analogy to reference the unconscious emotional manipulation. I could as easily point at the word "halitosis" as you are pointing at "spiritual successor"; both are examples of the manipulation of emotional states to achieve a marketing goal. I'm saying that people keep coming back to that--hell, it's even on the Wiki page!--not because the person is a fool, but *because* of that nostalgia-based marketing campaign continuously drawing those unconscious associations between PoE and Baldur's Gate.

All of those nostalgia-based things, with the exception of Fallout, reference or refer to Baldur's Gate in some way--even KOTOR 2, which is a sequel to a game made by the same people who made Baldur's Gate. That's why people keep bringing it up, that's why it keeps being referenced, that's why the idea is stuck in peoples head *and it was put there deliberately as a marketing ploy without ever saying it directly*.

That's my point, in a nutshell.

[Gromnir]

I'm using that as an analogy to reference the unconscious emotional manipulation. I could as easily point at the word "halitosis" as you are pointing at "spiritual successor"; both are examples of the manipulation of emotional states to achieve a marketing goal. I'm saying that people keep coming back to that--hell, it's even on the Wiki page!--not because the person is a fool, but *because* of that nostalgia-based marketing campaign continuously drawing those unconscious associations between PoE and Baldur's Gate.

 

All of those nostalgia-based things, with the exception of Fallout, reference or refer to Baldur's Gate in some way--even KOTOR 2, which is a sequel to a game made by the same people who made Baldur's Gate. That's why people keep bringing it up, that's why it keeps being referenced, that's why the idea is stuck in peoples head *and it was put there deliberately as a marketing ploy without ever saying it directly*.

 

That's my point, in a nutshell.

none of which changes shibboleth.  "spiritual successor" first got used in regard to poe 'cause hack game journalists used the turn-o-phrase.  can't actual blame obsidian for "spiritual successor" specific as, for the umpteenth time, they made no such claim.  blame obsidian for selling nostalgia? 'course not.  is good salesmanship. identify a niche o' gamers largely ignored by AAA publishers and sell 'em nostalgia? why the heck not? even so, blame obsidian for folks globbing onto a nonsense term 'cause obsidian were using nostalgia?  a stretch, but again, so what? regardless o' sexy women taking off their clothes in beer commercials level o' transparent marketing, "SPIRITUAL SUCCESSOR" is nevertheless a nonsense phrase which has been used in the past and persists in spite o' fact it has no meaning outside of as a recognition o' marketing.  shibboleth. you tell us the marketing campaign successful had folks buy into the nostalgia?  fine.  there is reasons why every shibboleth evolves and persists.  'course there is reasons.  'course it persists. wouldn't be a definition for shibboleth w/o some amount o' frequency and persistence.   

 

"spiritual successor" persists 'cause people is being foolish. even smarty folks do stoopid things, and this is one o' those pestilential vermin o' the crpg community which exhibits preternatural fecundity in spite o' obvious inanity. is a turn-o-phrase which evokes a feeling rather than anything substantial.  is marketing puffery.  nevertheless, the phrase has become common crpg parlance in spite o' the fact it means nothing. bad journalists use. wiki guys use. random folks on message boards use. obsidian, however, did not use.  given how common the phrase is and how endemic were its use regarding poe, the absence o' usage by obsidian is as telling as is use by folks in this thread.  

 

last one' cause you has exhausted us. 

 

HA! Good Fun!