New health system - poll version

[MountainTiger]

The POE health/endurance system is good. It puts a limit on how long you can stand in front of bosses chugging health potions and pushes the player to bring fights to a conclusion.

[Katarack21]

 

There is a difference between "quoting out of context" and "responding to this one point, because it is wrong."

Yes there is, and what you were doing is the former.

 

No, it's not. You inferred something based on the fact that most of the people who bought Pillars didn't finish it. Doing so is illogical and irrational; the fact that most people who bought it didn't finish it is normal and typical and meaningless, both directly and indirectly. It's like saying "The sky is blue; now I know this doesn't mean anything directly about gun murders in Chicago, but...".

 

It's a specific thing you said, which I isolated to comment on because it's wrong. That's all.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Katarack21

[Berio]

The tried and true system from POE1 all the way.

 

Also because there are way too many RPGs that have been doing the (more or less) exact same and boring approach to health and health management again and again over the past years. POE1 dared to try something different from the classic formula and succeeded as far as I'm concerned. Would be a shame to throw that out of the window for something closer to what "everyone else does" again.

[amazeing4art]

I think an injury system as proposed could be great... but I would recommend that the injuries not be "all or nothing" things that have really bad penalties right from the beginning.

 

So what I mean by that is, for example, there ought to be different levels of 'burn'... mild burn, burn, strong burn, severe burn... with progressive penalties. Same with sprained ankle, or concussion, etc...

 

And there should be lots of different types of injuries, many more than exist currently.

 

It might be interesting if different weapons and creatures were more likely to cause different injuries too... so a xaurip wielding a dagger, or an enemy archer, ought to be very unlikely to cause a concussion, but maybe very likely to cause a slashing or piercing wound.

 

And actually, what I would LOVE to see is that simply resting in an inn or around a fire for 8 hours is not enough to fully heal and cure all characters of all their incredibly severe wounds. I always thought this was pretty silly, most games do it but it's silly and just too easy to implement I think. Maybe you have to rest several days, or visit a temple or healer, and drop off a badly injured character there for a few days so they can heal up. If you want to continue without them, or substitute some other companion for them for several days, or wait for them to get better, that would be up to you. But I would really like to see that... especially because the idea of you and your band of characters and companions limping into town after spending a week in the wilderness and delving in ancient ruins, everyone all injured, and needing to rest up is really appealing to me.

Edited March 24, 2017 by amazeing4art

[Ninjamestari]

 

 

There is a difference between "quoting out of context" and "responding to this one point, because it is wrong."

Yes there is, and what you were doing is the former.

 

No, it's not. You inferred something based on the fact that most of the people who bought Pillars didn't finish it. Doing so is illogical and irrational; the fact that most people who bought it didn't finish it is normal and typical and meaningless, both directly and indirectly. It's like saying "The sky is blue; now I know this doesn't mean anything directly about gun murders in Chicago, but...".

 

It's a specific thing you said, which I isolated to comment on because it's wrong. That's all.

 

 

Nope, you quoted the thing out of context.

 

 

 

Again with the same fallacy. If we start talking facts, most people who bought the game didn't even complete the first act. Doesn't sound like the game was meaningful to them, and only about 10% have even completed the game. Statistics like this don't really paint the picture you're seeing, might I suggest that there's quite a bit more tedium in the game than most people are willing to handle. When statistics show patterns like this, it's quite difficult to take assumptions that "the system is meaningful to most players". Yeah, I know, the two issues aren't directly related, I'm merely pointing out a the fallacy of what you imagine to consist of 'most players'.

 

Here is the quote, *with* the context. Had you bothered to even read that very paragraph to its end with any thought, you would've noticed that you were arguing about a non issue we had no disagreements on. Dishonesty is the highest form of disrespect, and not bothering to try and understand the context of these very specific things people say is a form of dishonesty. A very minor form that is as often born out of fatigue and oversight as arrogance, but a form nonetheless.  I didn't infer anything based on the fact that most people don't finish the game, I merely used the fact to point out the fallacy of the 'most people are like x' - argument.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Ninjamestari

[Sedrefilos]

I think an injury system as proposed could be great... but I would recommend that the injuries not be "all or nothing" things that have really bad penalties right from the beginning.

 

So what I mean by that is, for example, there ought to be different levels of 'burn'... mild burn, burn, strong burn, severe burn... with progressive penalties. Same with sprained ankle, or concussion, etc...

 

And there should be lots of different types of injuries, many more than exist currently.

 

It might be interesting if different weapons and creatures were more likely to cause different injuries too... so a xaurip wielding a dagger, or an enemy archer, ought to be very unlikely to cause a concussion, but maybe very likely to cause a slashing or piercing wound.

 

And actually, what I would LOVE to see is that simply resting in an inn or around a fire for 8 hours is not enough to fully heal and cure all characters of all their incredibly severe wounds. I always thought this was pretty silly, most games do it but it's silly and just too easy to implement I think. Maybe you have to rest several days, or visit a temple or healer, and drop off a badly injured character there for a few days so they can heal up. If you want to continue without them, or substitute some other companion for them for several days, or wait for them to get better, that would be up to you. But I would really like to see that... especially because the idea of you and your band of characters and companions limping into town after spending a week in the wilderness and delving in ancient ruins, everyone all injured, and needing to rest up is really appealing to me.

Well, saying that resting for 8 hours heals your entire body is silly, is as silly as being ok with you getting blasted with fireballs and hammered repetedly with all sorts of weapons and you still sustain for so much

You can't have one-way realism in games heh.

That said, I like the idea of injuries in levels nad maybe differt ways to treat each would. Also maybe a wound can reach irriversible level where you get permenent debuffs if youcan't treat it soon enough.

But all these are a whole thing on their own, like a seperate management thing and it may be tiresome quick, especially in a combat-heavy game such as Pillars... I don't know. I still hope the devs have made the right choice here.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Sedrefilos

[firkraag888]

My system involves having to suck the farts out of dead corpses arses.

 

If you suck out one fart you can take one hit and survive. Two farts equals two hits.

 

And if one of your party members dies you can suck the fart out an enemy, give your party member mouth to mouth by blowing the fart back into him and he will be " ressurected"

 

Everyone is doing it.

[Amentep]

When I've thought about designing a system for health in my "I'm not a game designer but I think about this stuff anyway" way, I always looked at a dual system where you had a health pool and an "endurance" pool (I called it the "fatigue" pool).  So I liked PoE's original approach pretty well. 

 

The idea I had was slightly different; the fatigue pool actually represented the characters ability to avoid damage in combat.

So a miss wouldn't claim fatigue (although combat itself would drain fatigue at a very slow level)

A hit would first have a check for a miss via dodging (damages the fatigue pool)

then a check for armor deflection

then a check for damage absorption

then finally damage to the health pool.

 

Health would generate very slowly (over weeks) naturally and would generally be healed by magic or alchemy while fatigue was replinished by rest.

 

I also envisioned a closer tie to the sleep mechanic.  Something like

Stage I - fatigue regenerates quickly

Stage II - fatigue regenerates slowly

Stage III - fatigue regenerates slowly and only to a certain % of full

Stage IV - fatigue doesn't regenerate

Stage V - fatigue degenerates slowly; penalty to combat skills

Stage VI - fatigue degenerates quickly; further penalty to combat skills

Stage VII - unconsciousness

Where each stage represents so many hours from the last rest.

 

So what I thought of in my own way was different, but in general I like the idea of two different pools and enjoyed seeing a version implemented in PoEI.

 

Having said all of that, I'm not beholden to it and I certainly have enjoyed games with different systems and a single health pool.

[rjshae]

And actually, what I would LOVE to see is that simply resting in an inn or around a fire for 8 hours is not enough to fully heal and cure all characters of all their incredibly severe wounds. I always thought this was pretty silly, most games do it but it's silly and just too easy to implement I think. Maybe you have to rest several days, or visit a temple or healer, and drop off a badly injured character there for a few days so they can heal up. If you want to continue without them, or substitute some other companion for them for several days, or wait for them to get better, that would be up to you. But I would really like to see that... especially because the idea of you and your band of characters and companions limping into town after spending a week in the wilderness and delving in ancient ruins, everyone all injured, and needing to rest up is really appealing to me.

 

Too much realism would detract from the enjoyment of the game. Certain game mechanics are clearly abstractions of tedious activities, such as transporting endless piles of loot back to base or healing severe injuries. How would it be fun to actually perform these acts? It's too much like work, and games are leisure time activities.

[Ninjamestari]

When I've thought about designing a system for health in my "I'm not a game designer but I think about this stuff anyway" way, I always looked at a dual system where you had a health pool and an "endurance" pool (I called it the "fatigue" pool).  So I liked PoE's original approach pretty well. 

 

The idea I had was slightly different; the fatigue pool actually represented the characters ability to avoid damage in combat.

So a miss wouldn't claim fatigue (although combat itself would drain fatigue at a very slow level)

A hit would first have a check for a miss via dodging (damages the fatigue pool)

then a check for armor deflection

then a check for damage absorption

then finally damage to the health pool.

 

Health would generate very slowly (over weeks) naturally and would generally be healed by magic or alchemy while fatigue was replinished by rest.

 

I also envisioned a closer tie to the sleep mechanic.  Something like

Stage I - fatigue regenerates quickly

Stage II - fatigue regenerates slowly

Stage III - fatigue regenerates slowly and only to a certain % of full

Stage IV - fatigue doesn't regenerate

Stage V - fatigue degenerates slowly; penalty to combat skills

Stage VI - fatigue degenerates quickly; further penalty to combat skills

Stage VII - unconsciousness

Where each stage represents so many hours from the last rest.

 

So what I thought of in my own way was different, but in general I like the idea of two different pools and enjoyed seeing a version implemented in PoEI.

 

Having said all of that, I'm not beholden to it and I certainly have enjoyed games with different systems and a single health pool.

 

Sounds a lot like a fatigue system I had envisioned. In my system you would have a 'stamina' bar, that would regenerate at x% of max stamina per y interval, and you would gain fatigue whenever you use stamina at the rate of 1 point of fatigue per 100 points of stamina spent or something like that, and this fatigue would then simply be a penalty to your maximum stamina. Of course your system gains fatigue through simply not resting and mine gains through tracking exertion, but the basic idea is similar. Your version would fit a PoE type game better I think.

 

Oh, and there could be racial differences to these sleep patterns of yours, maybe elves need less sleep than humans, while orlans might tire more quickly, there could be spells that temporarily alleviate your fatigue and then there could be Tea and Coffee, which would fit the renaissance theme brilliantly ^^

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

There is a difference between "quoting out of context" and "responding to this one point, because it is wrong."

Yes there is, and what you were doing is the former.

No, it's not. You inferred something based on the fact that most of the people who bought Pillars didn't finish it. Doing so is illogical and irrational; the fact that most people who bought it didn't finish it is normal and typical and meaningless, both directly and indirectly. It's like saying "The sky is blue; now I know this doesn't mean anything directly about gun murders in Chicago, but...".

 

It's a specific thing you said, which I isolated to comment on because it's wrong. That's all.

Nope, you quoted the thing out of context.

 

 

Again with the same fallacy. If we start talking facts, most people who bought the game didn't even complete the first act. Doesn't sound like the game was meaningful to them, and only about 10% have even completed the game. Statistics like this don't really paint the picture you're seeing, might I suggest that there's quite a bit more tedium in the game than most people are willing to handle. When statistics show patterns like this, it's quite difficult to take assumptions that "the system is meaningful to most players". Yeah, I know, the two issues aren't directly related, I'm merely pointing out a the fallacy of what you imagine to consist of 'most players'.

Here is the quote, *with* the context. Had you bothered to even read that very paragraph to its end with any thought, you would've noticed that you were arguing about a non issue we had no disagreements on. Dishonesty is the highest form of disrespect, and not bothering to try and understand the context of these very specific things people say is a form of dishonesty. A very minor form that is as often born out of fatigue and oversight as arrogance, but a form nonetheless. I didn't infer anything based on the fact that most people don't finish the game, I merely used the fact to point out the fallacy of the 'most people are like x' - argument.

"Yeah, I know, the two issues aren't directly related"

 

No, you tried to link the two thoughts then weaken them with that so that you weren't held accountable to your weak logic. It's called "weasel words" and is a form of fallacy. It *is* intellectual dishonesty. Your implying that the two are indirectly linked.

 

They're not.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Katarack21

[Ninjamestari]

No, you tried to link the two thoughts then weaken them with that so that you weren't held accountable to your weak logic. It's called "weasel words" and is a form of fallacy. It *is* intellectual dishonesty. Your implying that the two are indirectly linked.

They're not.

 

 

So despite me clearly stating that the two aren't linked, and that I'm merely pointing out the fallacy in making blanket "most players" statements, you believe I did otherwise. If that is the level of your dishonesty, then there's really no point in continuing this conversation.

[Guest 4ward]

The POE health/endurance system is good. It puts a limit on how long you can stand in front of bosses chugging health potions and pushes the player to bring fights to a conclusion.

 

health potions aren‘t infinite and excessive use of them won‘t help against several creatures in BG2, like say vampires, liches, dragons, illitidhs, beholders … If people don‘t like using potions during combat, that‘s fine, don‘t do it then.

[Kinowek]

I'd prefer that Obsidian just keep the Pillars 1 system at this point. Their proposed injuries system sounds annoying, especially if it ends up like the Tyranny system.  Pillars 1 had something of an injury system anyway, although most injuries seemed to be from game events or actually being knocked out in combat? It's been awhile since my last Pillars 1 run.

[Ninjamestari]

I'd prefer that Obsidian just keep the Pillars 1 system at this point. Their proposed injuries system sounds annoying, especially if it ends up like the Tyranny system.  Pillars 1 had something of an injury system anyway, although most injuries seemed to be from game events or actually being knocked out in combat? It's been awhile since my last Pillars 1 run.

Of the two proposed systems, neither of which I like, yes, I agree with you 100%. If you keep re-inventing the wheel, you'll not only waste time but you'll also end up with one seriously ****ty wheel.

[Varana]

Pillars 1 had something of an injury system anyway, although most injuries seemed to be from game events or actually being knocked out in combat? It's been awhile since my last Pillars 1 run.

That is correct.

You get injuries (i.e. some kind of debuff) in PoE1 when you get knocked out in combat, and when you fail some check in a scripted interaction (not every time, it's individually scripted for each check).

[MountainTiger]

 

The POE health/endurance system is good. It puts a limit on how long you can stand in front of bosses chugging health potions and pushes the player to bring fights to a conclusion.

 

health potions aren‘t infinite and excessive use of them won‘t help against several creatures in BG2, like say vampires, liches, dragons, illitidhs, beholders … If people don‘t like using potions during combat, that‘s fine, don‘t do it then.

 

 

I've never run out of potions in a fight in BG2. Pillars quickslot limits do put a somewhat lower limit on potions, which is good, but the health limit is a much more meaningful limit on tanking through healing.

Beyond healing spam being monotonous, its availability influences encounter design. These problems are evident in the BG2 creatures listed. BG2, especially in later parts, is heavily based on attacking on axes other than HP (save or die spells, level drain, etc). These abilities tend to be countered by immunity spells and items, which turn extremely dangerous encounters trivial (the demiliches are the worst offenders here). While this design does encourage preparedness from the player, it doesn't encourage interesting combat: instead, encounters become primarily a question of whether the player knows about and has used the right protective spells.

[Karkarov]

I find this topic hilarious considering how many people hated on Eternity's health system.  Even on this very forum.  I am happy with whatever Obsidian want's to do, as long as it makes sense and isn't completely broken.  Which it will, and it won't be.

[rjshae]

I find this topic hilarious considering how many people hated on Eternity's health system.  Even on this very forum.  I am happy with whatever Obsidian want's to do, as long as it makes sense and isn't completely broken.  Which it will, and it won't be.

 

How many people actually "hated" on Eternity's health system? A handful? Forum topics tend to attract people who have strong views on the topic. The loudest opinions expressed therein don't necessarily represent the majority view.

[Guest 4ward]

 

 

The POE health/endurance system is good. It puts a limit on how long you can stand in front of bosses chugging health potions and pushes the player to bring fights to a conclusion.

 

health potions aren‘t infinite and excessive use of them won‘t help against several creatures in BG2, like say vampires, liches, dragons, illitidhs, beholders … If people don‘t like using potions during combat, that‘s fine, don‘t do it then.

 

 

I've never run out of potions in a fight in BG2. Pillars quickslot limits do put a somewhat lower limit on potions, which is good, but the health limit is a much more meaningful limit on tanking through healing.

Beyond healing spam being monotonous, its availability influences encounter design. These problems are evident in the BG2 creatures listed. BG2, especially in later parts, is heavily based on attacking on axes other than HP (save or die spells, level drain, etc). These abilities tend to be countered by immunity spells and items, which turn extremely dangerous encounters trivial (the demiliches are the worst offenders here). While this design does encourage preparedness from the player, it doesn't encourage interesting combat: instead, encounters become primarily a question of whether the player knows about and has used the right protective spells.

 

 

good for you, but i don‘t care much how anyone else plays in a single-player/off-line game. Why would you want to limit other players? Why not let healing be a tactical consideration like in BG2? It‘s about finding the right mix and not throwing out an entire system out of the window. Sure there‘s items in BG2 but they don‘t grow on trees either. Afaik, there‘s only one necklace that grants immunity versus level-drain though i don‘t remember how it‘s obtained anymore. But for your other guys to be protected you have to cast a short-duration spell for example. Most good items cost a good amount or have to be obtained through beating your opponents. Saves, well, that‘s what saving throws are there, to add surprise and reactivity in combat. The protective spells are there so that casters are not wiped out right at the start of combat.

[Ninjamestari]

good for you, but i don‘t care much how anyone else plays in a single-player/off-line game. Why would you want to limit other players? Why not let healing be a tactical consideration like in BG2? It‘s about finding the right mix and not throwing out an entire system out of the window. Sure there‘s items in BG2 but they don‘t grow on trees either. Afaik, there‘s only one necklace that grants immunity versus level-drain though i don‘t remember how it‘s obtained anymore. But for your other guys to be protected you have to cast a short-duration spell for example. Most good items cost a good amount or have to be obtained through beating your opponents. Saves, well, that‘s what saving throws are there, to add surprise and reactivity in combat. The protective spells are there so that casters are not wiped out right at the start of combat.

 

 

A game designer that doesn't care about how people play his game, single player or otherwise, isn't a very good game designer. 

[Karkarov]

How many people actually "hated" on Eternity's health system? A handful? Forum topics tend to attract people who have strong views on the topic. The loudest opinions expressed therein don't necessarily represent the majority view.

Enough people to make Obsidian change it even though they liked the system in Eternity 1 apparently.

[rjshae]

 

How many people actually "hated" on Eternity's health system? A handful? Forum topics tend to attract people who have strong views on the topic. The loudest opinions expressed therein don't necessarily represent the majority view.

Enough people to make Obsidian change it even though they liked the system in Eternity 1 apparently.

 

Ah, so your argument is that enough people didn't like a split health system that the designers are changing to a slightly different split health system? Huh.

Edited March 26, 2017 by rjshae

[mwinding]

I almost never post, but I wanted to mention that I liked the system from PoE 1 and would be disappointed if it was lost for the sequel.

 

Perhaps if people like me (who rarely post) are coming out of the woodwork, it might mean that this poll is actually fairly accurate and not representative of a vocal minority. Hopefully Obsidian takes note

[SonicMage117]

I almost never post, but I wanted to mention that I liked the system from PoE 1 and would be disappointed if it was lost for the sequel.

Perhaps if people like me (who rarely post) are coming out of the woodwork, it might mean that this poll is actually fairly accurate and not representative of a vocal minority. Hopefully Obsidian takes note

I actually liked it as well. It was refreshing.