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Two Weapon Cipher or Wizard

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17 replies to this topic

#1
KaineParker

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So I'm fixing to create my main for PoE2 and wanted to play through PoE with a new character. My plan for PoE2 is a Rogue/Cipher or Rogue/Wizard, but for PoE I'm going to roll either a Cipher or a Wizard. I want to know which of Cipher or Wizard would be best for a 2 weapon melee build on Hard+Expert for PoE, using the companions rather than Adventurer's Hall toons. Doesn't need to be optimized, just fun.

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#2
KDubya

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I'd go for a dual wielding Cipher. Ciphers get a huge +40% damage add that will greatly increase damage and focus gain with any weapons which will then fuel his casting with all of the focus.

 

Wizard's do great with summoned weapons like the level one staff and Citzal's Lance, but have no inherent advantage to using any weapon, especially dual wielding.



#3
Boeroer

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Only thing is that wizards can reach 0 recovery very quickly with dual wielding + Alacrity. We recently had a discussion here about a wizard with Novice's Suffering because it could be both effective enough and also fun. It was played and reported to be viable. Since wizards have low ACC and only have few bonus dmg mods but can get a huge MIG buff (Martial Power) it seems to be a good choice. Too bad wizards can't summon one handed weapons.

Besides that I also think a dual wielding cipher makes more sense. Usually dual wielding means more DPS and more DPS means more focus. Since dealing weapon damage is a must for ciphers anyways I'd also say that cipher is the better pick.

#4
Livegood118

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I don't really see much of a point in dual wielding if you can already hit near 0 recovery with a 2H unless:

 

– There are specific weapon procs/abilities you want to use

– You're trying to take advantage of full attacks

 

Other than those examples it seems like 2H can outdamage DW in every single instance e.g. Cipher with Time Parasite/Outlanders Frenzy/DaoM Potion when needed and Wizard with Deleterious Alacrity all the time.



#5
Boeroer

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There is a point: you can use Vulnerable Attack and wear a plate armor and maybe even squeeze in Cautious Attack. It can be quite nice to "overreach" 0 recovery if you then can add those things and still be at 0 recovery.


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#6
KaineParker

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Cipher it is then, thanks for your help.

One more thing, is the Ruffian weapon group the best choice for Two-Weapon? Thinking Bittercut and one of the more powerful stiletos.

#7
MaxQuest

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One more thing, is the Ruffian weapon group the best choice for Two-Weapon? Thinking Bittercut and one of the more powerful stiletos.

It is.
Double Bittercut (with Spirit of Decay) is the best steady focus generation option for cipher. It is somewhat followed by Double Purgatory (depending on how often do you crit, and how often do you face slash-immune or high slash-DR enemies). Both of these are sabres.

I would advocate against stilletos for cipher through.

Another decent option is the Blade of Endless Paths estoc, due to it's 5 DR bypass, speed property and higher base damage. Would have to rerun the math through, in order to check if it is still out-classed by bittercuts + vulnerable attack.

#8
Boeroer

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You all never tried Firebrand with a cipher. :) It's hilarious with all the dmg mods a cipher can get. But obviously it's not suited for dual wiedling. ;) 

 

Why would one clone Purgatory when Resolution can do the job of the second sabre as well? They both are annihilating.

I also think sabres are the best choice overall.

 

Another nice alternative for dual wielding are war hammers (because of the two weapon types): Shatterstar comes quite early and is annihilating as well.

 

Speaking of stilettos: did anybody try if Flames of Devotion from Vent Pick generates focus? It should, since it's a lash...



#9
Livegood118

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There is a point: you can use Vulnerable Attack and wear a plate armor and maybe even squeeze in Cautious Attack. It can be quite nice to "overreach" 0 recovery if you then can add those things and still be at 0 recovery.

 

Good point. Didn't think of that. A shame vulnerable attack doesn't really scale though.



#10
KaineParker

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Thanks for the advice guys, but I had to start over for PotD because I just kept steamrolling everything. One thing I have noticed is that savage attack seems to only affect base weapon damage and doesn't influence might, quality bonus, or any ability (on Eder at least), with Reckless Assault doing the same on an AH rogue. Does this mean that modals are in general a bad choice for a weapon damage build, outside of ranged abilities for Rangers?

I'm using the IE mod so that could be the cause in my case.

Edited by KaineParker, 19 March 2017 - 09:35 PM.


#11
Boeroer

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Every damage bonus works like this. It's always % of weapon base damage. Exception are lashes. That makes them so powerful.

#12
Revanroi

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Can you explai a little the build you are using? (at least the stat distribution) Thx mate!!

 

Im interested in the Melee Cipher playstyle



#13
Blades of Vanatar

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Rogue/Cipher sounds incredibly interesting for PoE2 if those large Cipher damage % bonuses cross class.

#14
scythesong

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Damage bonuses work like that or they'd be too powerful. Might is already very powerful as things currently are.

Dual-wielding has its pros. Access to more enchantments/spellbinds, access to more weapon types in general... you could even play a defensive dual-wielder with hatchets and talents like Cautious Attack, then switch back to kill mode the moment mobs switch targets.

Edited by scythesong, 22 April 2017 - 04:56 PM.


#15
smjjames

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Isn't PoE2 not slated for release until March 2018 or so? You'd have a while to wait regardless. Not discouraging making a main, just saying that it'll be a while.



#16
Caeyrii

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I'm thinking of a low Might, high DEX/INT Cipher that focuses on Afflictions. You wont be lacking for attack damage thanks to Soul Whip. I'm thinking 10/16/8/14/16/14? Granted there's a bit of RP-flavoring there(what attributes I think a Protagonist Cipher should have).

 

Talents to take are pretty obvious(Biting Whip, TWF, ASA, so on). Take Greater Focus early. Like, level 2 early. Makes it easier to cast either Mental Binding or Psychovampiric Shield at the start of a fight. 

 

With equipment, the best things go to the Main Character! :p Sabres, undoubtedly but there's something to be said for Soldier weapons. Don't want to frontline too much? Pike up. Time bash faces and take names? Warhammers. Tidefall falls under the category too and I feel like getting it is not too much work(can you sneak past the drake?). I dunno what armor to be on though. 

 

Companions-wise, it's as you will but I think a "wall" Eder could be more useful. Defender to at least try to hold back the tide before you get your buffs on? I think the Tank of Pain variant will be more than enough if you feel that's a boring way to play the super-hick.


Edited by Caeyrii, 27 April 2017 - 09:35 AM.


#17
MasterCipher

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I don't think you'd miss 2 PER and shift it to max your INT, it will boost  your afflictions and hopefully stay within your RP. Greater focus is terrific early, but worth respeccing later (ie starting with 55 instead of 45 focus doesn't let you open with anything fight changing).

 

Low MIG is perfectly playable with a little playstyle finesse. You may want to carry and swap several weapons with racial banes and damage types that target enemies lowest resistance. I'd go so far as to recommend having Aloth choose lower resistances for his spell mastery. Eder gets a great single target damage reduction reducer option later. With Kana's fire lash chant, your damage will be fine. Depending on the difficulty level, you may want to consider taking some accuracy boosts or defense reducers from your companions. Ciphers have some great options to self boost accuracy, but that's time and focus you could be using to disable, so you probably only want to dip into them for harder encounters.



#18
scythesong

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In my experience if you want to play a "skirmisher" character (that is, someone who likes to fight in melee range but generally doesn't want to get hit) you'll want two dedicated frontliners, like any variation of one Eder/Pallegina and one tanky Kana/Durance. It's just easier to control your character when you have two people keeping the baddies away from the squishies, and the setup works fine even in PotD.

If you have only one frontliner, mob overflow usually ends up forcing your skirmisher character to engage potentially dangerous mobs whether you're ready for them or not, and in PotD mobs tend to just slip past a solo frontliner anyway unless you have multiple Vancian casters spamming CC/damage spells (because chanters/ciphers need charge up time for their abilities). I've never seen Defender help that much, it's not a question of mob numbers so much as mob collision (some larger mobs will even end up circling around your entire party just to reach your tank - a lot of nasty things can happen when they do that) and AI pathing limitations (weird things happen when mobs block each other).
Also, WM likes to throw a lot of curveballs at traditional 1-tank party setups.

I don't see how ciphers can't make good skirmishers, even a wizard can pull that off with the right build/spells. You'll want to stack a lot of +%damage to make up for the 10 might, yes, whether from gear/food/buffs/etc. Ultimately your goal is still to kill stuff, after all. Your build might make doing that easier, but CC is really not that hard to come by and the game just loves throwing +%damage goodies at you.







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